-50 votes

concerned letter from a distraught member, re: trayvon martin

Dear DailyPaul.com:

About me: I have been supporting Ron Paul since 2007 and before that I was a brainwashed neo-con supporter. The Daily Paul has been an essential website in my awakening into being and solidification as a libertarian. I don’t often post but I have in the past, most recently the Monday after the George Zimmerman verdict.

I cant wait for the attention on the Trayvon Martin case to die down. The trial has been used as a means to divide the populous, which partisans are taking advantage of to solidify the legitimacy and growth of the state.

Additionally, I want the attention to go away because the Daily Paul’s participation in the spectacle has astounded me. Not only do your reactions support a police state mentality, your exaltation of Zimmerman and celebration of the verdict have been drenched in demagoguery and unwarranted harshness. You are actively contributing to the divide of the people and falling on the side of tyranny.

Regardless of whatever stories or “facts” you believe in surrounding the death of Martin, there are certain truths that cannot be denied that place Zimmerman as a violator of liberty. Firstly, let us all agree, that self defense is a pillar of liberty. Had Zimmerman been just strolling down the street minding his own business and been attacked by Martin out of the blue, without a doubt Zimmerman would be justified in killing him. Of course this was not the case, but let us give Zimmerman the benefit of the doubt and pretend that the story his defense used during the trial is the complete, truthful account of events. Zimmerman was driving in his car and saw Martin walking down the street. Zimmerman slows down and starts following him at night, in the rain. Martin sees that Zimmerman was looking at him and continues towards his destination. Zimmerman doesn’t say “excuse me young man, I want to talk to you.” He doesn’t even say “hey what are you doing?!” Zimmerman pulls his car over and keeps an eye on Martin. He then drives towards Martin again. No one else is around. Martin, taking a short cut, is able to get out of the site of Zimmerman. Zimmerman stops his car, gets out and continues to follow Martin on foot. This is aggressive behavior! After perceiving the escalating threat, Martin, a young man not an old woman, decides to confront this stranger who has been following him back to his home. After strategically positioning himself, Martin, taking no more risks, launches his attack. Zimmerman, unable to fend for himself, takes out his gun and shoots Martin dead.

No matter how you spin it, Zimmerman was the instigator. Had he not been following Martin, the 17 year old would have made it home safely. Zimmerman, even if he was well-intended, handled the situation with no respect towards Martin’s dignity as a person. Not only did he profile Trayvon based on his appearance, he treated him as though he were already guilty of a crime. This attitude is repugnant to a free society. Because of his misdeeds, a young man was shot dead, perhaps Zimmerman is not guilty of second degree murder, but how can you think the law should not hold him at least partially responsible? Let me get this straight: you can threaten someone, and when they fight you, you can just shoot them if you are loosing and get away scot-free? (such provocative behavior by a CC-er will surely be capitalized by the gun control crowd, after all it’s much less likely that Zimmerman would have gotten out of the car and followed Martin had he not had a gun)

Alas, to my horror, too many Daily Paul users think not just that, but also deem Zimmerman a hero, a great citizen and man. One person declared they wished Zimmerman would be neighborhood watch of his neighborhood!?! (apparently killing someone who is staying inside the gated community you are supposed to protect is a sign of good watchman-ship) This is a man who never became the cop he dreamed of being, so instead he carries a gun around and chronically reports things to the police. He is a self-appointed neighborhood watchman! These are the qualities of a man hungry for power and looking for trouble. I’m sure he’ll get a job offering at the NSA in a few years.

Moreover, the Daily Paul response has been toe-in-line with the talking points of the right-wing when it comes to the issues of drugs and race. You’d think these folks have never heard Ron Paul denounce drug-war propaganda or racial discrimination. Too many of you are participating in the vilification of this dead teenager based on selected internet posts and marijuana use! Also astonishing is the completely unnuanced and insensitive dismissal of the relevance of Martin’s race to the national discussion. Astonishingly, those of you who declare Martin’s race irrelevant are also the same ones attempting to legitimize Zimmerman’s actions because Martin fit the profile of wanted criminals, of which being black was an essential ingredient. He was being profiled and followed because he was young black man wearing a hoodie, forget the fact that it’s February and raining and the 21st century and the gated community has a significant population of black people. I mean it’s not like Trayvon was walking around a village in North Dakota where black people are only seen on television. Then many of you troll, “well Zimmerman is half-Hispanic so..” as if Hispanics can’t be racist. It’s not about Zimmerman’s race and it’s not about whether he is a racist, it’s about Martin’s race and whether it is just another coincidence that a young black male has been presumed to be criminal and shot dead for it. Black people experience America very differently than people of other races do. Martin’s death became a national story; it took on a higher meaning for black people—because they know all too well what it means to be looked at walking down a street and deemed suspicious. And they are frigging tired of it and they have a right to be! Your inability to understand that is atrocious. What’s next? Will they Daily Paul mock people in the Islamic world for protesting US imperialism?

When I tried to make these points, I was met with vitriolic denunciations and name-calling. Among other things, I was accused a “Democrat,” an “idiot” and an Al Sharpton echoer. I was not personally offended, just very disappointed: this close-minded hostility does not belong on the DailyPaul! These are the very “mob-rule” tactics that you denounce the left for adopting. Both sides are guilty of demagoguery and manipulation. As libertarians, we ought to transcend the partisan fray. We ought to understand both sides and point out the truth in both. We ought to frame the issue in Natural Law. We ought to protect the second amendment by punishing those who abuse it. We need not buy into the racial politics of the left but we ought to acknowledge the legitimacy of the origins of their grievances. And we ought to always insist on the dignity of the individual as an individual. You may still be glad Zimmerman was acquitted, but don’t pretend that it would be un-libertarian to think otherwise.

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You say distraught, we say disillusioned...

1. To take the evidence provided and apply it to Florida law makes supporters of the right to self defense police state supporters. Silly.
2. I would suggest those that are going against a jury, evidence, medical examiners, and eye witnesses are the ones "continuing to divide and falling on the side of tyranny".
3. You claim following someone is an act of aggression, I say grow up.
4. Martin left the safety of his fathers home and pursued Zimmerman, that was the selling point that Zimmerman's story is correct.
5. You claim a non violent action by Zimmerman was an act of aggression, not sure on what planet, but it does not deserve to be responded to by violence. What about the non aggression principle?
6. You have zero evidence of profiling, racial or otherwise, yet you lean on this lie. Why is that? Fabrication.
7. You claim it was Zimmerman's fault for following Martin, yet you never mention the assault of Zimmerman. Fabrication.
8. There is zero evidence Zimmerman threatened Martin at any time. More fabrication.
9. You clearly have hate for Zimmerman, yet most have none for Martin. Only that you cannot assault anyone for any reason other than self defense.
10. You claim now to know Zimmerman's dreams, you define chronically calling police from his 7 calls of over 420 from his neighbors during the same time. Sounds like crime in the neighborhood was what was chronic.
11. Many people on neighborhood watches are cc holders. This does not make them power hungry and looking for trouble. Only in your own mind is this fact.
12. Please post links to all the blatant racist remarks on the dailypaul. We have never been known for being politically correct, but I am yet to read a post that could be construed as racist.
13. You continue to claim profiling and racism, yet the FBI, local police, neighbors, and others have cleared him of that. This is a media sound bite you can not let go because of your bias. The anger has led you to post repugnant lies about the matter and perhaps you have convinced yourself that it is truth. No matter, people speaking against you, down voting you, and laughing at you have seen the evidence, are not fabricating stories to justify their position, nor are they profiling Zimmerman or claiming to know his "dreams".

So yet again, another post full of inaccuracies, Fabrications, fantasy, and make believe with zero evidence, no supporting facts, and continued calls to support your fabricated version of events because you do not like guns, do not like self defense, and cannot handle truth. I say it is you and your minority of followers that are divided from reality, but we do not buy that garbage here, so sorry. Best bet is to hit up all of the Sharpton sites where the race bater's hang out and you all can play make believe all day long, but it will not fly here.

Always remember:
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." ~ Samuel Adams
If they hate us for our freedom, they must LOVE us now....

Stay IRATE, remain TIRELESS, an

+1000 !!!

.

Wow that is pathetic logic.

To say that Zimmerman following Martin was an aggressive act. Not even close. It is not at all a crime to follow a suspicious person. This is not aggressive, this is not violence unless it becomes repetitive stalking or harassment.

C'mon, we all know what happened, Zimmerman followed Martin, Martin confronted him, Zimmerman told him he had called the cops, and Martin reacted violently to that situation.

Yes, Zimmerman was the aggressor, by calling a group of armed criminals (aka cops). Martin had the right to defend himself against the armed criminals that were coming for him, not to attack Zimmerman after the fact. If he had punched Zimmerman while he was on the phone with the police, then I would say that Martin was using legitimate self-defense and Zimmerman was the aggressor. But even if Zimmerman was the aggressor, even if you are the aggressor, you have the right to retreat, and then defend yourself after you have made clear that you will not aggress anymore, at which point the original victim becomes the aggressor if he pursues violence, so Zimmerman still gets self-defense for murder, however, being the original aggressor by calling the cops, he may have some liability for the outcome of his aggression. But to argue this way, you must get a court to accept that calling the cops on someone is an aggressive act. Good luck with that.

"Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito."

Your frustration is palpable

I hope that you can let this go as it has you emotionally blinded.

If GZ was following TM and calling him the worst names in the book, every offensive name you could call someones mom, he yelled at TM.

Attaching GZ is still not justified. Not justified under the law, and not under common sense. You never know what that other person may be carrying. He may 10 buddies out of sight that you cant see and is baiting you into doing something.

Unfortunately, it is younger people that let ego and pride carry the day. TM f'ed up and it cost him everything.

This is a tragedy because a young man is dead. The young man could have prevented it and should have prevented it.

good luck on finding a way to let this go

peAce

Liberty = Responsibility

Thank you

I still disagree but I appreciate your constructive criticism

Did Rachel Jeantel not testify

That, per their phone conversation, Martin had made it to his dads house, but then left to go back and confront Zimmerman?

Did I dream that? Because when I heard that the case was closed for me... he was home, but left to pick a fight... a fight he ultimately lost.

Ron Paul convert from the Heart of Dixie

GUS818, The only ones who

GUS818,

The only ones who believe Zimmerman is a murderer are blinded with racism or liberal brainwashing.

Go away you race baiting troll. You are spreading lies.

Instead of judging members due to which side

they have come down on and with the arguments you have set forth, consider this. You had a wannabe cop viewing what would, to most individuals, be considered a suspicious acting character, walking about and seemingly peering in windows. Keep in mind that this area had recently experienced a rapid increase in the number of burglaries to unattended homes. Would you be satisfied merely calling 911 and waiting for the police to come or would you attempt to keep an eye on this individual?
All the nonsense about the actions of both Zimmerman and Martin before any physical actions took place are totally irrelevant. What the only relevant issue is, is what happened the instant it became physical, who attacked who. From all evidence I have seen the only wound on Martin was a hole in his chest, while Zimmerman had many injuries. Did Martin inflict those injuries after Zimmerman plugged him in the chest?
What I truly believe brings most members of this site to exhibit their animosity towards Martin is the way the Government went to extreme, and possibly illegal, lengths to proceed with a case that they knew was a loser in an attempt to mollify or placate the extremist members of the African American community.
I'm curious to know how many burglaries have occurred in this neighborhood since Martin was killed.

If not us than who?

But you don't know WHY

But you don't know WHY Zimmerman had his injuries. You assume the hole in the chest is justified, but you assume the broken nose is not. And your opinion relies solely on the testimony of the person who put the hole in the chest. You assume he did NOTHING wrong, when the possibility does exist.

And you're going to say 'eyewitness saw trayvon on top' blah blah. Getting the upperhand defending yourself is not a crime, just like following somebody is not. Except apparently when you get the upperhand with your fists and fighting skills, rather than a gun.

If you are arguing strictly for the verdict, I'm with you. But not otherwise.

Martin had a chance to go to his fathers and forget Zimmerman

He chose to go after him, this much we know. It was that mistake that cost him his life. Had he simply gone home from the mad, vigilante, racist, child murdering, cop want to be, then he would be alive today. We are going on the best information we have, no one can know for sure, but to completely fabricate the story, leaving out facts that lead from one fact to the other cannot be ignored, manipulated, fabricated, or justified.

All we and a jury can do is take the evidence, not only from Zimmerman, but the 9-11 call, the neighbors, the eye witness, the coroner, to make the best judgement of what occurred, but fabricating facts does nothing but allows emotion to take over and blind ones reality. No one here is cheering because a kid is dead, least of all a black kid, but he should have gone home. It is correct he had a right to walk, so did Zimmerman, he had a right not to go to his fathers due to the creepy cracker following him, what he did not have is a right to assault Zimmerman, and law is not made up of what ifs, only facts, and putting facts together to draw a greater picture.

While many Martin supporters are right to state that we will never know, they are also the first ones to then add tidbits of story line that were never talked about at trial. Things such as Zimmerman confronting Martin, Zimmerman profiling Martin because he was black, Zimmerman being a vigilante even though he was speaking with police dispatch and only shot once. Make up all you want, but when the known facts refute your stories be prepared to be called on it.

Always remember:
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." ~ Samuel Adams
If they hate us for our freedom, they must LOVE us now....

Stay IRATE, remain TIRELESS, an

If you are such a stalwart of liberty

then you should be just as vigilant in pursuing the truth. Your post is littered with opinions and half-truths that belie the facts.

Great post. I thought the

Great post. I thought the comments from juror B37 were very insightful. She basically thought that he was guilty, but that he had learned his lesson.

Plan for eliminating the national debt in 10-20 years:

Overview: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2010/09/12/my-plan-for-reducin...

Specific cuts; defense spending: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/more-detailed-look-a

"Didn't read past title, downvoted."

For someone to post this and get up-voted (+10) really makes me sad of what this community has become. It also speaks to the delusion of grandeur and lack of humility that this community has adopted after being blessed with understanding the message of liberty.

"We’ve moved beyond the Mises textbook. We’re running in the open market." - Erik Voorhees

I read past the title but what difference did it make

I even bothered to make a thoughtful comment explaining the flaws in their thinking. Did THEY bother to respond....to logically discuss, or to consider and counter my points. No. There have been a gazillion posts on Zimmerman trial and countless responses on the law, human rights, and the constitution. But there is willful ignorance about this case and the law. At this point, down voting on title for continual misrepresenting the case and the law is understandable. People drumming this into the ground have gotten tiresome and willfully ignorant and antagonistic.

Hey

I haven't been following the case that well but from what I do know, I believe the verdict was correct. That said, I still respect your opinion and hope we can move on without any problems whatsoever. Not that there isn't any racism in this country (im half black and indian btw), but yeah..

"you're a funny dude, but who gives a fuck about that? I don't care about someone's wit, I care about the courage of their heart and the honesty of their mind."

Trayvon was an addict on a

Trayvon was an addict on a drug run. He was bringing home ingredients for lean. He was caught at school with women's jewelry he couldn't explain. He was a burglar.

The guy was a straight up criminal. What I'm sick of is the left leaning members of this site going down the regular liberal route of defending a violent criminal.

Zactly

...and there is EVIDENCE to support these allegations. As opposed to NONE to support GUS818's arguments.

Again, one more person who doesn't understand that the prosecution has the burden of proof to prove that Zimmerman did it, beyond a reasonable doubt, based on evidence admitted at trial.

Speculation about what may have happened, gleaned from the mouths of talkshow hosts, is not the basis fo the verdict, nor could it be. What is so difficult about that for GUS818 to understand.

In effect, he is arguing that people should be convicted based upon speculation. What a libertarian!

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-- Albert Einstein

I 2nd that

Bravo! You are correct. Martin was a thug that was bound to create MANY victims during his life had Zimmerman not put a stop to him. Live by the sword - die by the sword. Martin wanted a fight and he got one - just not the fight he wanted that night I guess...

haha my point exactly! For

haha my point exactly! For Liberty!

wtf website am i on again? lol

Amazing

Someone keeps down-voting us for thinking that Trayvon was a thug. In this case it's probably a black person doing the down-voting since, it seems, that 99% of black people think Trayvon was just a sweet little boy on his way home from buying some snacks.

For you down-voters, let me be clear, I don't care what race the person is, if he acts like a thug and attacks someone (on his way home with his favorite drug recipe ingredients), he should be treated like a thug and put down. Black, white, yellow or red - a thug is a thug and, when he or she attacks someone, the victim has a right to put them down.

The "creepy ass cracker" did not (that anyone can prove) break any laws. Being "creepy" and watching someone is NOT a crime and certainly does NOT justify a physical attack. On the other hand, jumping from the bushes, punching someone in the nose, jumping on the person and pinning him to the ground while throwing punches and saying "you're gonna die tonight" is first, assault, then, felony assault and battery and, finally, attempted murder (in that order).

Even if he is a "thug" in

Even if he is a "thug" in general GZ was the thug that night. His behavior was threatening. Trayvon responded to that threat, in a violent way yes, but GZ had it comin and shld be somewhat responsible for that

When I see a threat....

...I go the other way.

Now, how was Zimmerman being threatening? Watching out for his neighbors? That bastard! How dare he! Why weren't the neighbors out there kicking his ass for being so threatening?

Trayvon was his neighbor--not

Trayvon was his neighbor--not watching out for him, or maybe according to ur Orwellian theories he was!

Zimmerman had no knowledge of this...

....so he wouldn't consider him a neighbor. Zimmerman did have knowledge that crime had spiked in his neighborhood, hence the "Neighborhood Watch".

and further, what is so bad about

neighborhood watchmen and committees? To me, it seems like an organic response to a crime problem that government cannot afford to deal with sufficiently. It is a libertarian option. I'm all for it. Trayvon the angel shouldn't have decided to play gangsta on the way to supply his crew with lean.

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-- Albert Einstein

it's not against neighborhood watch

they should just act professionally and not harass people walking alone at night. or at least identify themselves!

evidence or speculation

your statement that he was harassing a people walking alone at night is based upon what actual evidence?

You're wrong in so many ways that it's not even funny.

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-- Albert Einstein

Exactly....

....apparently to some we should be hermits. Neighbors getting together to watch out for each other is akin to a police state.

Not sure why these folks have an internet connection and are engaging with other folks. They are supporting a surveillance state. Wow.

Bullshit

There is NOTHING in Florida law that allows a person to attack another person based on a perception of being a "creepy assed cracker".

He had it coming huh? OK, I tell you what, under that rule, there have been several cases where I thought someone was "eyeballing" me a little too much. I suppose it would be just and proper for me to have attacked them? Gee, I wish I had know that years ago.

NOT! What a dumb ass...

I'm not concerned about

I'm not concerned about Florida law. I'm concerned about natural law. And those eyeballers, were they following u on car and foot at night when no one else was around?