-51 votes

concerned letter from a distraught member, re: trayvon martin

Dear DailyPaul.com:

About me: I have been supporting Ron Paul since 2007 and before that I was a brainwashed neo-con supporter. The Daily Paul has been an essential website in my awakening into being and solidification as a libertarian. I don’t often post but I have in the past, most recently the Monday after the George Zimmerman verdict.

I cant wait for the attention on the Trayvon Martin case to die down. The trial has been used as a means to divide the populous, which partisans are taking advantage of to solidify the legitimacy and growth of the state.

Additionally, I want the attention to go away because the Daily Paul’s participation in the spectacle has astounded me. Not only do your reactions support a police state mentality, your exaltation of Zimmerman and celebration of the verdict have been drenched in demagoguery and unwarranted harshness. You are actively contributing to the divide of the people and falling on the side of tyranny.

Regardless of whatever stories or “facts” you believe in surrounding the death of Martin, there are certain truths that cannot be denied that place Zimmerman as a violator of liberty. Firstly, let us all agree, that self defense is a pillar of liberty. Had Zimmerman been just strolling down the street minding his own business and been attacked by Martin out of the blue, without a doubt Zimmerman would be justified in killing him. Of course this was not the case, but let us give Zimmerman the benefit of the doubt and pretend that the story his defense used during the trial is the complete, truthful account of events. Zimmerman was driving in his car and saw Martin walking down the street. Zimmerman slows down and starts following him at night, in the rain. Martin sees that Zimmerman was looking at him and continues towards his destination. Zimmerman doesn’t say “excuse me young man, I want to talk to you.” He doesn’t even say “hey what are you doing?!” Zimmerman pulls his car over and keeps an eye on Martin. He then drives towards Martin again. No one else is around. Martin, taking a short cut, is able to get out of the site of Zimmerman. Zimmerman stops his car, gets out and continues to follow Martin on foot. This is aggressive behavior! After perceiving the escalating threat, Martin, a young man not an old woman, decides to confront this stranger who has been following him back to his home. After strategically positioning himself, Martin, taking no more risks, launches his attack. Zimmerman, unable to fend for himself, takes out his gun and shoots Martin dead.

No matter how you spin it, Zimmerman was the instigator. Had he not been following Martin, the 17 year old would have made it home safely. Zimmerman, even if he was well-intended, handled the situation with no respect towards Martin’s dignity as a person. Not only did he profile Trayvon based on his appearance, he treated him as though he were already guilty of a crime. This attitude is repugnant to a free society. Because of his misdeeds, a young man was shot dead, perhaps Zimmerman is not guilty of second degree murder, but how can you think the law should not hold him at least partially responsible? Let me get this straight: you can threaten someone, and when they fight you, you can just shoot them if you are loosing and get away scot-free? (such provocative behavior by a CC-er will surely be capitalized by the gun control crowd, after all it’s much less likely that Zimmerman would have gotten out of the car and followed Martin had he not had a gun)

Alas, to my horror, too many Daily Paul users think not just that, but also deem Zimmerman a hero, a great citizen and man. One person declared they wished Zimmerman would be neighborhood watch of his neighborhood!?! (apparently killing someone who is staying inside the gated community you are supposed to protect is a sign of good watchman-ship) This is a man who never became the cop he dreamed of being, so instead he carries a gun around and chronically reports things to the police. He is a self-appointed neighborhood watchman! These are the qualities of a man hungry for power and looking for trouble. I’m sure he’ll get a job offering at the NSA in a few years.

Moreover, the Daily Paul response has been toe-in-line with the talking points of the right-wing when it comes to the issues of drugs and race. You’d think these folks have never heard Ron Paul denounce drug-war propaganda or racial discrimination. Too many of you are participating in the vilification of this dead teenager based on selected internet posts and marijuana use! Also astonishing is the completely unnuanced and insensitive dismissal of the relevance of Martin’s race to the national discussion. Astonishingly, those of you who declare Martin’s race irrelevant are also the same ones attempting to legitimize Zimmerman’s actions because Martin fit the profile of wanted criminals, of which being black was an essential ingredient. He was being profiled and followed because he was young black man wearing a hoodie, forget the fact that it’s February and raining and the 21st century and the gated community has a significant population of black people. I mean it’s not like Trayvon was walking around a village in North Dakota where black people are only seen on television. Then many of you troll, “well Zimmerman is half-Hispanic so..” as if Hispanics can’t be racist. It’s not about Zimmerman’s race and it’s not about whether he is a racist, it’s about Martin’s race and whether it is just another coincidence that a young black male has been presumed to be criminal and shot dead for it. Black people experience America very differently than people of other races do. Martin’s death became a national story; it took on a higher meaning for black people—because they know all too well what it means to be looked at walking down a street and deemed suspicious. And they are frigging tired of it and they have a right to be! Your inability to understand that is atrocious. What’s next? Will they Daily Paul mock people in the Islamic world for protesting US imperialism?

When I tried to make these points, I was met with vitriolic denunciations and name-calling. Among other things, I was accused a “Democrat,” an “idiot” and an Al Sharpton echoer. I was not personally offended, just very disappointed: this close-minded hostility does not belong on the DailyPaul! These are the very “mob-rule” tactics that you denounce the left for adopting. Both sides are guilty of demagoguery and manipulation. As libertarians, we ought to transcend the partisan fray. We ought to understand both sides and point out the truth in both. We ought to frame the issue in Natural Law. We ought to protect the second amendment by punishing those who abuse it. We need not buy into the racial politics of the left but we ought to acknowledge the legitimacy of the origins of their grievances. And we ought to always insist on the dignity of the individual as an individual. You may still be glad Zimmerman was acquitted, but don’t pretend that it would be un-libertarian to think otherwise.

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Many of these pro Trayvon

Many of these pro Trayvon posters collect gov paychecks for posting this crap... Our second amendment is under fire from this case.

What did everyone expect?

LOL. The last few years of

LOL. The last few years of Trayvon Martin's life should be taken into account on what type of person he was (and if he's bad, then that means we should care slightly less about him than other innocent people shot dead), but George Zimmerman's actions just MINUTES before their fight are completely irrelevant. Right...

Ron Paul doesn't even believe in the formal death penalty for convicted murderers, pretty sure he doesn't believe in the Do-It-Yourself one for misbehaving teenagers.

huh?

Ron Paul is a huge advocate of the second amendment and of one's right (and responsibility) to preotect one's life with deadly force.

I'd rather have a bottle in front o' me than a frontal lobotomy
www.tattoosbypaul.com
www.bijoustudio-atx.com

But not on spying and

But not on spying and following ppl based in their clothes and appearence

It was Martin's actions....

...that drew suspicion, and that Zimmerman didn't recognize this person. Not his clothes and appearance.

NOOOO

You can't say that then where will they draw the federal civil rights case from???

Those pesky facts always mucking up authoritarianism.

"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."

Click Here To See The Candidates On The Record

and the guy with the violent police record was innocent?

RIIIGGGHHHTTT! BTW Im not defending Trayvon Im attacking the idea that Zimmerman is a hero!

While I have seen several posts giving Zimmerman props

For the most part people have been posting positive things because of the support of self defense, and a jury's rational not to act as leftists that must fabricate things to justify their positions. Just saying.

Always remember:
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." ~ Samuel Adams
If they hate us for our freedom, they must LOVE us now....

Stay IRATE, remain TIRELESS, an

I'll be waiting to read...

...a story about you killing a policeman because of this comment right here, "No matter how you spin it, Zimmerman was the instigator. Had he not been following Martin, the 17 year old would have made it home safely." That summarizes pretty much every policeman, mall cop, hall monitor and block watch captain. you seem to believe you have a right to privacy on PUBLIC easements... you don't... they are *public* easements.

I couldn't even count the amount of times a security guard or cop has followed me around some place... (i'm white)

i honestly fear for my life every time i see a cop... but what i don't think in my head is, "i'm gonna START A FIGHT with them." ...
instead i do my best to ignore them, carry on my way as a peaceful person and just hope they uphold their constitutional oath and don't violate my unalienable rights or initiate force upon me.

the fact remains, Martin threw the first punch, Martin is the INITIATOR of AGGRESSION and FORCE. Zimmerman never approached Martin. it would be a logical failure to say that zimmerman was aggressive to martin when he never even approached him or got in arms reach. Again, it's not illegal to talk on the phone and walk around a neighborhood and look at someone who is also walking around in public... zimmerman never arrested martin's movements... Martin initiated conversation with zimmerman then threw a punch after zimmerman answered "no" to the question, "you gotta fucking problem?"

Trayvon could have ignored him and went home, like so many people do to cops everyday. Trayvon could have called the police if he was scared of a man on the street... just as George was in process of doing. Trayvon could have asked, "you gotta fucking problem?", heard "no" from George, then said, "leave me the fuck alone i live right here." and went on his merry way. punching someone who is exercising their right to travel, look and speak on "public easements" is always wrong.

watch this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF-Ax5E8EJc

I use Blue Wave, but don't expect one of THEIR silly taglines.

Martin throwing the first

Martin throwing the first punch is not a fact. It is only from George Zimmerman's testimony.

Even so, the assumption that shooting the first shot is self defense, but throwing the first punch is not, is crazy inconsistent.

It is the fact "as we know it to be"

Where were the marks on Martin's face? Where was the bruising? You cannot shoot someone for following you and claim self defense, but if someone follows you and evidence points to your head being banged off concrete, then you have justification. Martin as you claim was unarmed, and I will conceded that right up until the point that Zimmerman's head made contact with the concrete you are correct. Once the head to concrete occurred Martin was armed and dangerous, and using force that could be considered lethal, or just the same as using a bat against someone. Perhaps if he jumped Zimmerman in the grass and there was no concrete then it might have turned into a fight, but once the concrete came into play, Zimmerman had every right to stop the threat.

Always remember:
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." ~ Samuel Adams
If they hate us for our freedom, they must LOVE us now....

Stay IRATE, remain TIRELESS, an

You have no evidence to the contrary

In fact you have no evidence that Zimmerman threw a single punch at all.

We know Trayvon didn't punch and beat down Zimmerman after the gun was shot, therefore it had to have happened before.

We know Trayvon was long gone before the 911 call ended meaning he had to have come back to Zimmerman purposefully to confront him.

You are making up "facts" to fit your point of view.

Not to be a dick, but I bet

Not to be a dick, but I bet you watch Chriss Angel Mindfreak in astonishment lol.

I am not making up facts, I am just pointing out that what other people say are facts, aren't.

Zimmerman supporters are the ones with no facts, yet still have a point of view (so it can only be assumed that it came from personal biases, ie. with some people- racism. same can apply to some trayvon martin supporters).

Bottom line, you are not giving Trayvon Martin the same benefit of doubt you are to George Zimmerman. As far as the court case goes THAT'S FINE, that's justice. But as far as talking bad publicly for no reason about an innocent dead person goes, THAT'S KINDA MESSED UP.

No need for that title, many of us think all liars are dicks.

Now why do you not list the facts that have been discussed that are not? You never reply with any sense or defense, only lies and then attacks. Post the lies that the pro self defense people have stated so we can debate whether they are fact or fiction, or is it simply more lies and fabrications?

Always remember:
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." ~ Samuel Adams
If they hate us for our freedom, they must LOVE us now....

Stay IRATE, remain TIRELESS, an

You're a f*cking

You're a f*cking idiot...

Sincerely,
From someone that watched the entire trial.

Nice of you to use leading language

to try and manipulate readers.

Following a person in public is NOT a crime. You have no expectation of privacy in public. That is the law, that is common sense. Your view would make it illegal for people to film police or take photography in public.

Martin, taking no more risks, launches his attack.

That's the only thing that matters, your whole contrived "letter" is irrelevant sans that fact. Martin ATTACKED Zimmerman and Zimmerman LAWFULLY and justly defended himself.

I've been robbed and mugged. If you're slinking around my neighborhood, especially around my house. I'm going to see what you're up to. I'm not dependent on the state like you would have me be. If you attack me and I fear for my life, out comes Glock 19 and down you go. Period. END.

edit:

Why will NONE of you answer the question "What does the gun have to do with it?"

I think it's because if stated your stance you'd easily be outed as anti gun. Grow some.

"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."

Click Here To See The Candidates On The Record

I agree

The negative votes on this one are misplaced.

The verdict was not a surprise to anyone who was aware of all the evidence and testimony.

The actions of the race hustlers and their masters in the fed gov was no surprise either.

The only surprise is the DP crowd feeding into the fake hysteria. As aware and smart the DP crowd is, this comes as a bit of a shock.

This is a dead end, so let it be. imo

Good points all, GUS818

Thanks for this thorough exposition, GUS818. You have perfectly captured my misgivings also. Particularly:

This is a man who never became the cop he dreamed of being, so instead he carries a gun around and chronically reports things to the police.

When uniformed officers do what George did, we see a lot of upset responses about out-of-control government agents. When a wanna-be does it, we seem to be all for it?
I'd like to amplify 3 points:
1) As GUS818 explains, there are believable scenarios where George is the primary aggressor. His version of the story sounds like a written police action report, which is (should be?) suspect at some level.
2) As GUS818 points out, it is possible for liberty-minded people to come down on either side of this case. This is not a litmus test for liberty - it is a hyped-up drama intended to divide people.
3) The liberty community (I read DailyPaul and LewRockwell) seems to be a bit tone-deaf on this. While nearly the entire country is focused largely on the (contrived?) racist undertones of this thing, we find ourselves calling Trayvon a thug, a punk, etc. I believe that if an outsider would stumble in here and read these comments, he would be totally convinced that we are all a bunch of closeted racists, even as we deny it. I say tone-deaf because our movement has already suffered the taint of racist associations. Remember how much mileage was gained out of a few newsletter articles? Remember how opponents call us anti-semites and neo-confederates and racists? Tom Woods' zombie gag works because he *knows* that is what the knee-jerk reaction is to some of liberty's positions. We should know too, and at least make an effort to keep our discourse even-toned, rooted in first principles, and courteous.

If you need an example of what I am talking about, read this OP again.

I'm voting for Peace.

Send better Trolls, Nobody is

Send better Trolls,

Nobody is falling for this BS fling1...

enough of this subject...

enough of this subject... gtfoh

The slogan press on has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race. No person was ever honored for what he received. Honor has been the reward for what he gave.

- Calvin Coolidge

wolfe's picture

Read this comment:

http://www.dailypaul.com/293106/do-black-people-not-have-the...

There were no heroes. No good guys. Both were wrong.

Now, here is why you are seeing what you are seeing on the DP. There was a comment from someone recently about the communist Russia logic shorthand. They were lied to so much by the government, that they just assumed if they were told X was true by the government, then X must be false, and vice versa.

The defense of Zimmerman here is occurring because our government says that he is evil, so everyone here just immediately assumes the opposite.

Zimmerman and Trayvon were both in the wrong.

The Philosophy Of Liberty -
http://www.thephilosophyofliberty.com/

I think 6 women

acquitted him and YOU and everyone else in the world should accept that. The thug decided he would attack. He though he would try to make a grab for Zimmermans gun before Zimmerman ever attempted to pull his gun, then the thug got the wrong end of the gun he grabbed for. The thug attacked first, no matter what your view is, and it is EXTREMELY libertarian to defend yourself under ANY circumstance that any THUG decides to impose himself on you while breaking the NON AGGRESSION RULE we live by. Zimmerman defended himself and that illiterate POS got what he wished to impose on another human. He was 'followed' by Zimmerman? So what, doesn't give him the right to act aggressively. Maybe Trayvon the Thug ought to have called the cops instead of his deadbeat honkey hating girlfriend... Too bad Zimmerman isn't a white guy like the media keeps trying to make him.

It's getting pretty obvious that if you are indeed a liberty minded individual that we are in big trouble and the R/D paradigm is strong and healthy.

I would -999 this thread if would let me.

Peace out, I disagree with you 100%

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the author of this comment wasn't even disagreeing

with the verdict...He just feels that Zimmerman isn't the saint or hero everyone here seems to be making him out as.

I believe Zimmerman is innocent of murder, but that doesn't mean he didn't make mistakes. Had Zimmerman actually taken a fighting pistol class from a respected teacher, he'd never have put himself in a situation like that. He'd never take his eyes off Trayvon to allow him to get sucker punched. The second Trayvon came at him aggressively the gun would been drawn, and STOP would be yelled before trayvon could throw his first punch to the nose. Most likely trayvon would have just ran like the punk he was. But zimmerman was not reproducible enough to takes enough classes if any to learn this. CCW is likened to a Martial Art and for good reason. If you are going to carry, you need to take it seriously and TRAIN not just in the mechanics of shooting, but also in ways on how to avoid unnecessary conflict that could result in a shooting. This includes communications skills. Any good instructor will tell you pulling the trigger is the absolute last resort.

The point was that DPers are giving it to much attention and not enough attention to the actual intentions of the people behind the scenes and their agendas.

Well

I won't argue with most of your estimation of things as it seems to me neither of us were there and aggression rarely has a perfect scenario.

I will agree it's getting too much attention. Not only here on the DP but EVERYWHERE. I will also add that there is and always has been a divisional and politicized address to this happenstance. Why I even responded to this post is because I am pretty pissed off at the racial pinning of Zimmerman as a white man to bolster a non nonsensical lambasting of 'white on black' crime.

The whole thing reeks from the moment Angela Corey moved in to up the charges that Barry "He could be my son" Obama" wanted.

I am happy as a pig in crap that Obama and the Sharpton's of this world got kicked in the face by 6 women who deliberated over the finality of the trial.

I have NO empathy for Trayvon. I could care less about Zimmerman. Justice was served, for once.

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but why did the "thug"

but why did the "thug" attack? because he felt threatened and violated! i'd say in this scenario zimmerman was the thug.

and what the cops do? first of all, no one needs to report back to the state, you have a right to defend yourself as an individual. secondly, clearly, they wouldn't have come in time!

Non Aggression Principle

no aggression was taken on him. NO gun was pulled on him the thug grabbed for the holstered weapon. End of story.

Clearly according to your next pseudo paragraph, this should have been a non issue in the first place. The thug's illiterate girlfriend proved who was the angry, racist, hatefilled thug. I did watch it and that's what MOST people got out of it. Except the 2A hating 'gimme gimme' crowd.

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Bulk Components starting this month also with 223 bullets!

I actually WATCHED the trial... did you?

By your post I highly doubt it.

EVIDENCE shows that Martian was the aggressor. I'm not going to go point by point because I've already done it and many others have too. You are misrepresenting the evidence. I can only assume that you are fabricating pathways and filling in the blanks based on your own preconceived beliefs of race, neighborhood watches, and police.

The evidence does NOT show that Zimmerman followed Martin beyond the 15 seconds during the 911 call. But the BOTTOM LINE is that Zimmerman had the legal right as a FREE PERSON to follow Martain all the way home if he liked. Just as Martain had the legal right as FREE PERSON to follow Zimmerman or just stand right there and pop open his iced tea. Or if he felt threatened he could have gone home, or called 911 himself. What he DIDN'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO was double back and jump on and pummel a guys head int the ground. There is no legal justification for that. You can't just attack someone because they are walking down the same street as you or even following you.

What neither of them did was simply TALK to each other. That may have solved it...maybe.

Zimmerman was not looking to pursue or confront. That's why he called 911 so that the police could do it. That's why he kept his gun holstered up until the end.

Trayvon was a good fighter (his brother said so) had been in many fights(he bragged about it and others corroborated that fact by telling him to stop fighting) and was a fast runner (played football...surely he was faster than Zimmerman) Trayvon had options if he was scared. He could have gone home. He could have called 911. He could have even just stayed hidden. But he chose to double back and attack Zimmerman instead. Where is that ever lawful? He wasn't cornered or threatened. My suspicion is that Trayvon knew he could take Zimmerman and acted on impulse as he was angry at being followed. Zimmerman went to get the street name and Martain probably thought Zimmerman was looking for him and decided to confront him with a punch.

Violence is never justified for just being in the same location. This isn't just about the freedom to protect yourself and the freedom to carry concealed gun, but it's also a case of being able to walk freely without being attacked. Trayvon had the right to be there but he didn't have the right to throw the first punch and follow it up by pounding the guys skull against concrete.

downvoted

Zimmerman was doing what he was always doing - his neighborhood watch. You have a problem with that? Tough. Some neighborhoods have people who do that.
You're playing word games. The 'fact' is Z defended himself against Treyvon. Period. Treyvon attacked first. He could have continued on his way back to wherever he was going. Treyvon chose to hide and jump someone, then beat that person and bang that person's head on the cement. Those are the facts you so much want to ignore.
And your collectivist statement - "Black people experience America very differently than people of other races do" has no place here.

If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.
James Madison

people have unalienable rights-tough

acknowledging different culture and experiences is not collectivist, it's just honest. "collectivist" thinking would be oh look there is another black walking late at night--let's report him to the police and follow him in car and on foot.

zimmerman was going to the store, and i'm pretty sure his job is not to harass his neighbor's son.

Im sure Zimmerman didnt know it was his neighbors son...

Zimmerman saw an individual he did not know. A stranger in a neighborhood that had a very high crime rate. As a neighborhood watch volunteer he had every right to ensure that his neighbors were safe and their property was unmolested. He did in fact follow Martin, but no evidence showed that he confronted him. Evidence does point to the fact that Martin was 30 seconds from being home, yet 2 minutes after the time Zimmerman lost him and the fight occurred it is obvious Martin chose not to go home. What any rational person would derive from this is that Martin wanted the confrontation, to fight the cracker, and it cost him his life. Was Zimmerman wrong in pursuing Martin, absolutely, but being wrong and making a dumb choice does not a murderer make.

No marks on Martin, Martin did not go home when he had the chance, Martin ran after walking towards Zimmerman per the 9-11 tape which added to suspicion. These are the things we know as fact provided from the 9-11 tape, the coroners office, and nothing to suggest otherwise accept the voices in the wilderness making up their own version of events, and claiming them as fact. Hey you anti self defense supporters, refute the facts, prove racism in something other than your twisted views, prove Zimmerman was the aggressor, answer the question why Martin didn't go home, why were there no signs of assault on Martin's body? Why did the media think it had to alter the 9-11 tapes? The photo of Zimmerman going into the police station? If this was so cut and dried, why did the jury not find him guilty of man slaughter, the lesser charge? Why would you ever insinuate that we were racists because we believe the evidence presented, while the oppositions offers nothing but un-provable attacks on the evidence such as the 9-11 call, the eye witness, and now even Martin's girlfriend claims she thinks Martin hit Zimmerman first.

Always remember:
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." ~ Samuel Adams
If they hate us for our freedom, they must LOVE us now....

Stay IRATE, remain TIRELESS, an