-7 votes

Questions for an Atheist. If there is no God/Creator where do our rights come from?

Our Founders designed America under the belief that our rights come from our God/Creator. These rights are to be unalienable and superior to government. If there is no God, where do you suppose our rights come from? Do we have any?

I believe everything was put on this earth as a gift from God, which in return makes human rights superior to animal rights. If the deer in the forest is not a gift from God, who's property is the deer killed by the hunter? What right is superior: the hunters right to provide food for his family, or the animals right to life? Without God, what right does the hunter have to hunt in the King's/State's forest? Where does this right come from, the King? Without God, could it not be argued that the hunter has no right other than to starve?

Updated 7/25. I have since edited-out a short section of my post stating Marx was an Atheist. I apologize. I've received a lot of comments stating if your an Atheist, you must also be a Communist, and I didn't mean to be interpreted that way. I wanted to stir up some discussion, but it was not my intention to offend anyone. I'm sorry.

Furthermore, I'm referring specifically to America's ethics and Natures God that the Founders often referred to as a Christian God, but at the same time was supposed to be universal/self-evident among all religions and individuals. This raises other questions. Why does Dr. Paul always refer to the "Christian Just Theory of War"? Does it not make a mockery of Dr. Paul and the Founders to talk so disrespectfully about a God that is the very foundation of America's values and morals? I believe the Founders left the term so broad that it could be interpreted by everyone, on and individual level, but certainly not denounced and made a mockery of.



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Rights exist for the purpose

Rights exist for the purpose of sorting out the most logical social order. A social order is important to be able to co-exist with other humans.

When man is born naked into the world, he himself is the most logical owner of himself. So he has a right to his own life and to be able to protect that life. He has a right to mix his labor with natural resources not already claimed and become the owner of that property. And he has a right to do as he pleases as long as he does not infringe upon the rights of others.

The concept of gods really has no bearing on a social order.

question for religious people

If your rights come from God, can God take them away?

“Although it was the middle of winter, I finally realized that, within me, summer was inextinguishable.” — Albert Camus

God has given us free will.

God has given us free will. We can follow his ways or live that of self.

Answer the question

If God said I am taking your rights away, would say "ok, whatever you say," or would you revolt?

“Although it was the middle of winter, I finally realized that, within me, summer was inextinguishable.” — Albert Camus

I feel one must first

I feel one must first understand the character of God. His ways are not the ways of man.

God's "character" is whatever

God's "character" is whatever one says it is. If I say "I'm happy", can you prove I'm not?

I feel George Carlin offered the best answer.

You have no rights.
http://youtu.be/m9-R8T1SuG4

I Upvoted You Because I Love The Bit

But apparently Carlin hadn't read the 9th Amendment.

___________________________________________________________________________
"Bipartisan: both parties acting in concert to put both of their hands in your pocket."-Rothbard

duh...

Our humanity.

There are a million different faiths in the world and trillions of different forms of life.

Our humanity is what makes us different. It is unique on earth.

'Peace is a powerful message.' Ron Paul

Phxarcher87's picture

you kinda

make it sound like other planets have different ways of life. There is no other life found yet right?

One of the biggest pitfalls in a "movment" is the temptation to get cultish about it and refuse to realize that it is only part of the picture. -Joel Salatin ; You Can Farm pg 202

Judge Nap said it best

as someone stated below...your rights come from your humanity. You have rights by virtue of being human. Thats the best explanation I know.
I like this explanation too though...Here's the great Carlin on your "rights": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaa9iw85tW8

I'd rather have a bottle in front o' me than a frontal lobotomy
www.tattoosbypaul.com
www.bijoustudio-atx.com

:)

beat me to it!!!!

'Peace is a powerful message.' Ron Paul

And

saying that without a belief in god you believe in communism is fucking retarded.

I said the beliefs run

I said the beliefs run parallel. Neither Communist or Atheist believe in God. God is the foundation of Americas values and morals.

Plenty of communists believe in a god

not everyone justifies communism the same way

WTF?

are you trying to divide the Liberty movement by bringing Religion into the picture?

Last time I checked there are were a group of 217 (all of whom believe in a God) people who dont believe you have ANY RIGHTS to privacy!

FOR GOODNESS SAKES THERE ARE PEOPLE TRYING TO TAKE AWAY YOUR NATURAL RIGHTS!!! And you view Atheists as the Antagonists? Why cant you just be happy you have a few in your Fight for Liberty..sheesh

His name is Edward Snowden

What is Capitalism?
http://youtu.be/yNF09pUPypw

As Judge Napolitano puts it

They come from our humanity.

Your rights come from logic

Your rights come from logic and reason. It's logical to believe you own yourself ergo the basis of all property rights which all rights flow from.

Drawing a line anywhere else is arbitrary. If you say someone else has a greater claim to your body and the fruits of your own labors than you do, what would you logically base that on? You can't. If you say you don't own yourself, any atrocity is justifiable.

This isn't that hard. I don't know what there is beyond this life, no one does. Telling yourself you do based on a book that is a proven amalgamation of many sub religions and beliefs is just humans doing what they do, inventing stories to make sense of the unknown because the unknown is scary.

Is there a god? Maybe, I don't know. That's the only honest answer anyone can give. But I do know I have logic and reason and that I can create an irrefutable argument based on that logic and reason instead of some arbitrary book with a sky fairy as its central character. If there is a god and he gave me this ability to use logic and reason, he would be evil to then ask me to ignore it and that's a god I want nothing to do with anyway.

The founders were mostly agnostics/atheists, but smart enough to know religion was important to most people at the time who weren't versed in the advanced education and philosophy they were. So they called on religion as a means of convenience that would be easy for the avg illiterate to understand and comprehend.

"In reality, the Constitution itself is incapable of achieving what we would like in limiting government power, no matter how well written."

~ Ron Paul, End the Fed

First Define God

Pick one so I know which one you are refering to:

- A -

Agdistis or Angdistis
Ah Puch
Ahura Mazda
Alberich
Allah
Amaterasu SUN GODS AND GODDESSES
An
Anahita WAR GODS AND GODDESSES
Anansi
Anat
Andvari
Anshar
Anu
Aphrodite LOVE GODDESSES
Apollo SUN GODS AND GODDESSES
Apsu
Ares WAR GODS AND GODDESSES
Artemis MOON GODS AND GODDESSES
Asclepius
Athena WAR GODS AND GODDESSES
Athirat
Athtart
LOVE GODDESSES | WAR GODS AND GODDESSES
Atlas

Top of Page

- B -

Baal
Ba Xian
Bacchus
Balder
Bast
Bellona WAR GODS AND GODDESSES
Bergelmir
Bes
Bixia Yuanjin
Bragi
Brahma
Brigit

Top of Page

- C -

Camaxtli WAR GODS AND GODDESSES
Ceres
Ceridwen
Cernunnos
Chac
Chalchiuhtlicue
Chang Hsi See Heng-O.
Charun
Chemosh WAR GODS AND GODDESSES
Cheng-huang
Cybele

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- D -

Dagon
Damkina (Dumkina)
Davlin
Dawn
Demeter
Diana MOON GODS AND GODDESSES
Di Cang
Dionysus

Top of Page

- E -

Ea
El
Enki
Enlil
Eos
Epona
Ereskigal

Top of Page

- F -

Farbauti
Fenrir
Forseti
Fortuna
Freya LOVE GODDESSES
Freyr SUN GODS AND GODDESSES
Frigg

Top of Page

- G -

Gaia
Ganesha
Ganga
Garuda SUN GODS AND GODDESSES
Gauri
Geb
Geong Si
Guanyin

Top of Page

- H -

Hades
Hanuman
Hathor LOVE GODDESSES
Hecate (Hekate)
Helios SUN GODS AND GODDESSES
Heng-o (Chang-o or Chang Hsi) MOON GODS AND GODDESSES
Hephaestus
Hera
Hermes
Hestia
Hod
Hoderi
Hoori
Horus
Hotei
Huitzilopochtli
WAR GODS AND GODDESSES | SUN GODS AND GODDESSES
Hsi-Wang-Mu
Hygeia

Top of Page

- I -

Inanna
LOVE GODDESSES | WAR GODS AND GODDESSES
Inti SUN GODS AND GODDESSES
Iris
Ishtar LOVE GODDESSES
Isis LOVE GODDESSES
Ixtab
Izanaki
Izanami

Top of Page

- J -

Janus WAR GODS AND GODDESSES
Jesus
Juno
Jupiter
Juturna

Top of Page

- K -

Kagutsuchi
Kartikeya WAR GODS AND GODDESSES
Khepri
Ki
Kingu
Kinich Ahau
Kishar
Krishna
Kuan-yin
Kukulcan
Kvasir

Top of Page

- L -

Lakshmi
Leto
Liza SUN GODS AND GODDESSES
Loki
Lugh SUN GODS AND GODDESSES
Luna MOON GODS AND GODDESSES

Top of Page

- M -

Magna Mater
Maia
Marduk
Mars WAR GODS AND GODDESSES
Mazu
Medb
Mercury
Mimir
Min
Minerva WAR GODS AND GODDESSES
Mithras SUN GODS AND GODDESSES
Morrigan WAR GODS AND GODDESSES
Mot
Mummu
Muses

Top of Page

- N -

Nammu
Nanna MOON GODS AND GODDESSES
Nanna (Norse)
Nanse
Neith WAR GODS AND GODDESSES
Nemesis
Nephthys
Neptune
Nergal
Ninazu
Ninhurzag
Nintu
Ninurta WAR GODS AND GODDESSES
Njord
Nugua LOVE GODDESSES
Nut

Top of Page

- O -

Odin
Ohkuninushi
Ohyamatsumi
Orgelmir
Osiris
Ostara

Top of Page

- P -

Pan
Parvati
Phaethon
Phoebe
Phoebus Apollo
Pilumnus
Poseidon

Top of Page

- Q -

Quetzalcoatl

Top of Page

- R -

Rama
Re SUN GODS AND GODDESSES
Rhea

Top of Page

- S -

Sabazius
Sarapis
Sarasvati
Selene MOON GODS AND GODDESSES
Shiva
Seshat
Seti (Set) WAR GODS AND GODDESSES
Shamash
Shapsu
Shen Yi
Shiva
Shu
Si-Wang-Mu
Sin MOON GODS AND GODDESSES
Sirona
Sol SUN GODS AND GODDESSES
Surya
Susanoh

Top of Page

- T -

Tawaret
Tefnut
Tezcatlipoca
Thanatos
Thor
Thoth
Tiamat
Tianhou
Tlaloc
Tonatiuh SUN GODS AND GODDESSES
Toyo-Uke-Bime
Tyche
Tyr WAR GODS AND GODDESSES

Top of Page

- U -

Utu SUN GODS AND GODDESSES
Ullr
Uzume

Top of Page

- V -

Vediovis
Venus LOVE GODDESSES
Vesta
Vishnu
Volturnus
Vulcan

Top of Page

- X -

Xipe
Xi Wang-mu
Xochipilli
Xochiquetzal

Top of Page

- Y -

Yam
Yarikh MOON GODS AND GODDESSES
Yhwh
Ymir
Yu-huang
Yum Kimil

Top of Page

- Z -

Zeus

For Freedom!
The World is my country, all mankind is my brethren, to do good is my religion.

Phxarcher87's picture

Alpha and Omega

not the God of the gaps, the god of the whole show.

One of the biggest pitfalls in a "movment" is the temptation to get cultish about it and refuse to realize that it is only part of the picture. -Joel Salatin ; You Can Farm pg 202

Yeah but many on this list

Make that claim. They also profess to have many of the same attributes.

I'm not dismissing the notion of deity , I just want to make sure we rule out all the fictitious ones ( all on this list) so I know where this conversation is going.

For Freedom!
The World is my country, all mankind is my brethren, to do good is my religion.

Phxarcher87's picture

Well every individual has a job cut out to seek truth or darknes

If the claims of Jesus were true, a line has been drawn in the sand. That is one thing I love about God. My relation ship with him is voluntary.

I wake up every day and choose to love and follow Jesus. You cannot be angry at God, ( ALPHA and OMEGA )if you choose not to follow him. The belief i hold is that Gods love for us is so dear, that he gives free choice. Would be pretty weird if he forced us to love him.

People rant and rave about HELL but all it's a voluntary decision to reject him. Lets put it this way. God will not force anyone into heaven. And at the same time, he does not force people into hell. We choose our outcome in life, and by doing so we must be divided about the atheist/religious topic. There is no bridge other than LIBERTY. You do what you want, and i will do as i choose.

For the record, I am no way better than any man, I need Jesus as much as everyone else. As the book of Luke teaches, “The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke
17:20-21)

I do recognize though, that if you believe in the god of the gaps then those gods apply. But if you believe in the God revealed through the Holy Bible then it is a completely different story.

One of the biggest pitfalls in a "movment" is the temptation to get cultish about it and refuse to realize that it is only part of the picture. -Joel Salatin ; You Can Farm pg 202

Phxarcher87's picture

The bigger question

is why has the atheist community made a, science OR religion way of thinking? Historically many scientist have be believers.(Newton, Maxwell, Collins) Heck the head of the human genome project is a Christian. This is the debate that needs to be had. SCIENCE IS LIMITED to scientific things. A major category error is being made by some people who claim to have it all figured out.

One of the biggest pitfalls in a "movment" is the temptation to get cultish about it and refuse to realize that it is only part of the picture. -Joel Salatin ; You Can Farm pg 202

So....

Zeus?

I was hoping you would pick

Rah

For Freedom!
The World is my country, all mankind is my brethren, to do good is my religion.

By the nature of life

and survival you have to integrate the facts of reality (as honestly and as accuratly as you possibly can) and act accordinly in order to create the values necessary to sustain your existance. Creating an abudance to fairly exchange or voluntarily share with others benifits all.

In harmony with this responsibility reality dictates that no other individual/s has the right to infringe on anothers ability to do so (as in force, threat of force or fraud).

One is either in integrity with this or not and/or to varying degrees.

Because this is our individual responsibility, we also have the right/responsibility individually to defend ourselves from anyone/anything that infringes upon our ability to create the values necessary to sustain ones existence (survival).

All conscious beings have this responsibility or they do not survive.

Through the process of honestly integrating advanced concepts and clusters of concepts (language) we have advanced in conciousness (awareness of what is) in varying degrees and have identified this responsibility/ability to create values unhinderd by force, threat of force or fraud from any other individual or group of individuals as a axiomatic fact/"right".

Some dishonestly confuse and abuse concepts in themselves and others through their own lazyness and or intentional dishonesty and fraud, they try to gain/trick an advantage to extract unearned values, attempting to avoid the necessary honesty and effort required to create values in excess of ones consumption.

They do this by infringing on other value creators in order to leach off or destroy the productive output of the creator/s, one at a time or in mass (the anti-civilization and its collapes that we are dealing with now).

Some do this through direct force, threat of force or fraud and manipulation which is another form of force (to extract a value they would not get if the owner of that value knew the honest truth), governments and the external authority cult mentality is one example.

We will advance in conciousness or not(integrity with and awareness of what is). We will make the leap in conciousness neccesary to throw off this cult mentality/anti-civilization or not.

We are currently wittnessing (severe survival pressure) the anti-civilizations collapes!

Our survival and the answers to existance and its origin is based on this journey.

This process and solution is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

See signature below.

The creation, production and fair exchange of values is the business of evolving consciousness, love and life.--Craig Johnson

This is not the proper

This is not the proper question to ask. With or without a god, you will have the same abilities you do now(assuming of course the earth isnt several thousand years old and we didnt come from Eden)

If you get in a car and start barreling into a crowd of people, God isnt suddenly going to put his hand out to stop your car from hitting people. You will have the same ability to hit those people regardless. "Rights" are more of a "what you can and cant do(in the case of harming people)" in context to yourself and those around you.

To climb the mountain, you must believe you can.

Aside from the obvious

They come from the motions and responses of the bodies of men and women.

ie. failure to utilize them will result in forfeiture.

donvino

You realize...

...what you just said is against the atheist theory of natural rights.

Rights come from the rational minds of men.

Imagine that only one person lived on the earth. Rights would be a meaningless concept to him because the only restrictions on his behavior would be the limitations placed on him by his environment and his capabilities. He wouldn't need to concern himself with how his actions would affect others or the actions of others would affect him; others don't exist in this imagined situation.

Add another person and then they both need to concern themselves with whatever mutual danger they might face from one another. Who can use what property and what they can and can't do to one another becomes a concern. A system of rights solves this problem if they both agree to what they each can and can't do as it affects the other. In reality a right is an abstract concept that was created by human minds, not by some unseen being. If enough people define a system of right, and a way to enforce and protect them, then rights benefit mankind by making life more secure. If enough people don't agree on a system of rights, and they can't be enforced, they don't exist.

To attribute rights to gods is a huge discount to the value of and power of humans. It is we humans who create rights by conceptualizing them, agreeing on them by respecting them, and fighting against those who choose to violate them. If you are not willing to fight for rights against those who would violate them you don't deserve them, and it is about time we understood we won't have them without rising up against people who find it profitable to consume us by force instead of living by honoring rights.

Revolutions are about enforcing rights, and in my view we are marching headlong toward a big one, and rightfully so.

I don't care if you want to think your creator also created your rights, but it works better to understand where they actually come from, else you might sit around waiting for him to enforce them for you.

"Bend over and grab your ankles" should be etched in stone at the entrance to every government building and every government office.