-74 votes

Israel Is Not Apartheid: Proof

I believe one of the big problems on DP concerning Israel, is people are NOT doing their homework. They are not checking the facts but accepting misinformation against Israel.

The liberty movement should study, and LEARN, from Israel, not shun it, not damn it, but learn why we should stand with Israel, and work to become more like Israel.

So, let's begin with the subject of apartheid since many here tell me that, "Israel is Apartheid". That is not true, and here's proof:


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Pretty much

They're valuable to you too or you wouldn't care if someone took them from you on the street, or emptied your bank account.

I don't support aid to anyone, ever, at any time, for any reason. I don't care if they're gonna get their check next week and their grandma needs her meds. It ain't happenin.

"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."

Click Here To See The Candidates On The Record

Ethnic countries are unamerican

Americans should be disturbed by any country that tries to base itself on ethnicity. Its an unamerican way of thinking. However it is how the world works minus a few ex-British colonies in the world that have become immigrant hubs. My dominant ethnicity is Greek. I like Greece. I dislike the purges of Greeks in Turkey and Egypt but the US had no obligation to do anything. The only duty we have to Israel is to open our doors to them.

I don't agree

But then I see the American Revolution as a Protestant war agaist Catholics, and I see the same in the Civil war out west, where the Army came in the name of freeing the Native Americans from the Church and then marched the same Indians to their deaths in many trails of tears.

It is actually very European Union in your thoughts, which is why Germany, France, and others are losing their language and their culture.. even in the USA, people complain that were are losing our language, Hablamos Espanol?

We have no duty to Israel. We should leave Israel alone, get out of the ME and let the chips fall where they may.

Explain more!

1. What were the Catholic interests in the American Revolution? The only ones I know are French and Spanish, both sided with US.
2. by "civil war out west" you mean the Indian-American wars? If so I like the concept of the Indian-American wars being a civil war but I dont think it actually qualifies as one as the indians considered them selves separate nations?
3. I agree it is sad to see ethnicities disappear in Europe. But it will never happen. A people dont last for thousands of years and then disappear. When push comes to shove those countries are just apologizing for WWII, are inherently racist and the people will purge the minorities when the empire goes into decline, just like turkey and egypt. Oddly Britain will purge too. Their only contribution will be that they created places for ethnic minorities to go where they stand a fighting chance.


Since 1492 the Catholics came to the New World and began establishing their net work. This was fine until protestantism, and that created problems in the colonies, plus those who had emancipated themselves and didn't want any religion.. Britian had gone protestant, the American Revolution refelected that.. it destroyed Catholicism, the French went to Canada where Catholicism is still strong, and America became "Christian".

Out west, we had missions built by the Portuguese and Spansih, and they had control.. CA didn't become a state until 1850. Where I live in Northern CA, the area was controled by the mission delores. In a book by Ezra Carr, 1873, Granges of the NW.. he says my county had millions of head of cattle, sheep, goats, flocks, growing wines, taking down oaks and redwoods to repair galleons, buildings.. the federal governmetn established a fort to "protect the indians" from slavery from mission delores. This fort existed for seven years. At the end of the fort, the indians were rounded up and marched to a trail of tears (their deaths). The end of mission delores rule had been comppleted. Most tribe in CA were peaceful, willing to adopt agriculture. The two tribes that were not peaceful were Tulare and Piutes..

The ethnicities in Europe are already disappearing.


i dont know anything about the protestant reformation

Except what I just read from google. I see that it was contemporaneous with the discovery of america but it was 100 years before England colonized America I think-- pilgrims in 1620 or something,....
I never really considered the Catholic-Protestant dynamic because the story of Spanish-English and French-English enmity seemed to describe more history. Are you saying Catholicism was good for the indians?


I'm not going to say Catholicism was good for ALL Native Americans.

Change is inevitable. Migration of people is natural. So it was inevitable that Catholicism would migrate to the New World, and they were able to settle for hundreds of years among the Native Americans, despite the tribes that violently resisted.

Indians were not settlers on the West Coast, from my understanding, they were territorial, and moved their camps with seasons within their territories, and Catholics were able to negotiate, and obtain natives to help build, plant and establish their missions. I believe advanced medical treatment, food being available, shelter during major storms, stablity during natural desasters, and the constant migration of Europeans to the New World, helped the Catholics develope relationships with the Natives.

In the Catholic Churchs I attend in CA, Mexican, Filipeno, Portugese, dominate the Masses, where they not only fit into their communities, but they are able to retain their ethnicity. So the Church provides them tradition, a safe meeting place, connection to the community, and a way to meet new people of their native origins.

I don't believe it was that much different hundreds of years ago. That stability had it's rewards, and the native knowledge of the natural enviroment made for a simbiotic relationship.

I believe when protestantism came around, it was perhaps confusing to natives, especially since they began to see fighting between the Europeans over the same God, and there of course was competition for church members.

To this day, when I attend an Christian evert.. GOP Christain breakfast, here in CA, lead by protestants, the chism is alive, with insensitive comments, and some are meant to hurt. "Why do you worshop idols?" Someone actually said that to me when I introduced myself, sitting down to breakfast.

You may find it interesting, my father was quarter Clatsop and an objectivist, hated religion with a passion, blamed religion for everything. His mother (my grandmother) was half Clatsop, grew up on a reservation and was a devout protestant, swore Jesus is the only thing that saved her tribe. He said it destroyed the tribe, but then he couldn't join the military to get out of OR soon enough, and I never really knew her, because he never wanted to go back.

Sounds like youre native american then

I will count 12.5%. I know people who are like 1/16 or something but dont think that counted since blonde/blue.
Interesting. Well its tough to defend US- Indian policy. I suppose greed.
I was raised eastern orthodox and the reason we were given for the schism with the Catholic church was that Catholics didnt like the use of images by the Orthodox church, charging it was idol worship. The other two reasons were the pope as head of church and I believe because Catholics dont consider communion a sacrament only available to church members.

By your count, I would be

By my own, I would not be. That said, it appears to be a dominate gene in myself and siblings. Alcohol is poison to me, unless it's mixed with herbs and used as a tonic.

I don't know why I attract Native Americans, but I seem to meet them and make bonds quickly, have attended many ceremonies, weddings, spiritual blessings, shown sacred sites for Natives only.

My father did teach us how to hunt,fish, trap, repel, climb, track, collect, season, sky watching, water reading, and I have family members who are well known for things like dousing/ diving rods.. I seem to have a natural communion with animals, and this has been a problem because people become very attached to their pets and jealous when their pets obviously want to be with me. I seem to tune into their spirits. I have always cared for the elements, respect them. I have read and practiced many rituals, like smudging, spirit walking/talking.. but I'm not into it.. I don't seek it out, or build my life around it, or try to make my focus.

I don't find it hard to defend the US-Indian policy. In many ways, I believe that Natives were blessed. Many went with the flow, were easy to adopt and appreciated electricy, creature comforts, not having to kill to survive. How many here kell the chicken they eat? My grandmother's garage was filled with skins and cans of meat.. it was a hard life. I have camped, took survival training and lived in the wild, and it's very hard WORK, most Americasn who talk about it romantically have no experience and no idea how hard and harsh it is. It makes you age very fast, and the killing gets to your heart. The good thing is it also gives you a LOVE for people. People are gifted, and gifted people share their gifts freely, where people who are not gifted covet what they have. They become materialistic and attacked to the inanimate, and this dulls the soul, entraps them in "maya".

But I don't want to talk too much about it.

I know a few Eastern Orthodox, most recent is from Romania, very smart, good soul too. Roman Catholic Church communion is only for those who took the sacrament of communion. I was baptized as an infant, my God Mother had no idea why my mother wanted me baptized, she was not Catholic, my father was "out to sea", and when he returned he was furious, and I paid a very heavy prive for that baptism by him. It was like he never trusted me for it. I didn't begin checking out Cathoicism until 2010, after my Mother passed and my father disowed all of us (I think it goes back to his native American upbringing, where the elder goes away from the family, never to return, they live in us spiritually, but dead or alive).

I completely gave myself to the Church, but I am finding that the Church is not interested in individuals, but families, and since I do not have a family.. It leaves me alone with Jesus. And I'm ok with that. I prefer the Catholic Church to the protestant churches, but I do not think the Catholic Church is going to nurture my soul, I think I'll end up like my Dad.. but then, I have not been to Israel yet. And I think it's part of my spiritual development, but I can't say that will be my end all. Actually, I don't believe I'll have an "end all", but will achieve ever lasting life because I do ADORE God and LOVE people. I LOVE the Earth, I am grateful for the experience of LIFE.

hey your comment just happened to catch my eye

i'm just a part native but it's a very very very big part of my life, of my belief system and the medicine i try to bring.

and you are the new indians.

Get your preps together! Learn historic food storage and preservation methods and the science that makes them work now, start saving money and the future

this is erased

because it was a repeat

I don't remember South Africa

I don't remember South Africa ever occupying and basically walling off contact, trade, movement, and political independence to Africans outside of South Africa. They simply prevented a majority of African immigrants from politically taking over their country, until they finally gave in and turned their country over.

Palestinians have no realistic expectation or desire to become politically dominant in Israel, they just want their own territories to be recognized as independent nations with the same rights other nations have when at peace. Trade, free travel, diplomatic relations with other states, and a military to defend their sovereignty.

Israel deliberately creates conditions that maintain a state of constant low-level conflict, to justify the claim that there is a state of war, and therefore not recognize the independence of the Palestinian territories as a state. The settlements are just one more way of provoking low level conflict, from rock throwing to rockets to an occasional bombing.

South Africa never tried to prevent blacks from going and setting up independent states outside of S. Africa. South Africans blacks demanded something entirely different. The right to have political equality inside of S. Africa with the outnumbered South Africans. The South Africans resisted this as long as they could, simply to avoid turning their country over to a majority of a different ethnic group. They eventually succumbed to demands for political equality and transfer of power, because they lacked the kind of intense ethnocentrism Israelis have.

Israel will never be in danger of succumbing to such kinds of pressures, because their sense of identity is so much stronger than that of the white South Africans.

Anyway, Israel depends on the US to apply pressure to prevent the rest of the world, and UN from recognizing the Palestinians as a state. The expansion of settlements and constant provocations into low level conflict are ways of persisting a state of violence in which they can continue to make demands for a "peace process" in order to delay and avoid recognizing the Palestinians as a sovereign state.

The Palestinian territories are basically Indian reservations, or, as some have said, open air concentration camps. South African blacks did not have full rights of voting and citizenship, but they were migrants into another country.

Entirely different situation from South Africa on so many levels.



Vid didn't work?

There's your answer. It's in the vid.

I watched it. There are

I watched it. There are points I may have agreed with and points I may have disagreed with. But it does not address anything in my above post.


I thought it addressed very well:

"Israel deliberately creates conditions that maintain a state of constant low-level conflict, to justify the claim that there is a state of war, and therefore not recognize the independence of the Palestinian territories as a state."

The vid shows you, it is NOT Israel.

The video doesn't even deal

The video doesn't even deal with the conflict it is about why Europe and why Arabs are supposedly jealous of Israel and wish to deny it political legitimacy. Maybe you mixed your links up.


Maybe you need something more profound?


Granger Im gna have to get

Granger Im gna have to get wages to watch this guy talk anymore.

Welcome back!

Yes, Israel did that, with NO apology http://www.forbes.com/sites/eliseknutsen/2013/01/28/israel-f...

And why? Because Israel's BIGGEST problem is so many people want to come there to live in a land of freedom. Israel has so much land, and illegal settlements are a constant problem.. so when Etheopians decided to have as many babies as they could, damn the illegal settlements, damn the Palestinains, damn the limited resources, just have as many children and feed off those who produce, Israel put an end to it.

This could all be resolved by expanding Israel beyond the borders, alas, too many Americasn think the Palestinian AUTHOUTITY and Islamic AUTHORITY should take Israel, where the Etheopians wouldn't have a place.

What have you done for a Palestinians or Ethiopian today?



Judaism 101

The Jews are legally living in Shomron and Judea and the “Declaration of a Palestinian State” is Illegal; according to the League of Nations, the United Nations and International Law

The acceptance of the land from the United Nations connotes an agreement to abide by the policies and parameters established therein. Consider it terms and conditions of use. Israel has not honored those parameters. You've admitted such by confirming that Israel never apologized for the involuntary sterilization of Ethiopian Jews and then you have the audacity to say Israel is the land of freedom.

Really? How many times a day do you get smacked?

Doesn't really matter. You've been exposed as a Zionist and have now lost all credibility as a libertarian.

Once agin, I must disagree with you Granger...

I whole hearted support the existence of Israel, BUT...

I don't support every action their government takes.
Just like I don't support everything my own government does, but I am a die hard American patriot.

If I don't support every action the US government takes, does that make me anti-American? Of course not.

If I support the existence of Israel, does that mean I support their government's every action. Again, of course not.

Forced sterilization is completely wrong. Voluntary sterilization is a different story. Coerced sterilization / violence, is the same thing as forced sterilization. It is wrong, hands down.

Does that mean the entire nation of Israel should be wiped out? Do you think the USA should be wiped out if you don't agree with the abortion policy, or any other messed up policy? It either case, it shouldn't.

That is what many on DP should understand. But you should also understand the Israeli government, is a government like any other, and therefore can be tyrannical. When any government does something tyrannical, it is the duty of freedom loving patriots to speak up.

I just wish some on DP would apply that thinking broadly and evenly, rather than focusing on Israel. Personal bias, is no doubt a motivating factor for some individuals here.

Are you a POT or a PET - Person Embracing Tyranny?

So is population explosion for occupation

I'm not going to say forced sterlization is correct. Israel stopped, and today we have a Miss Israel who is Ethiopian..

No government is perfect.

Inhumanity of Israeli Apartheid Checkpoints

Inhumanity of Israeli Apartheid Checkpoints (also see second video)

Palestinian Olive Grove Destroyed by Israeli.

Treatment of Palestinians is apartheid by any other name
by Jonathan Cook

The policy is clear: Palestinians on both sides of the Green Line are to be treated like sheep, fenced into ever-smaller areas, while Jews will have unrestrained access to a Greater Israel envisioned by Mr Netanyahu. The international community has long criticised Israel for the "discrimination" its Palestinian citizens face and for the "oppression" of Palestinians under occupation. This terminology needs overhauling too, say the human rights lawyers.

A system that treats one ethnic group as less human than another already has a legal name: it is called apartheid.

Read more: http://www.thenational.ae/thenationalconversation/comment/tr...

Using children as your shied?

They KNOW the routine. Freedom isn't free, and no one is allowed to come to the land of milk and honey at any age without showing they are not armed. Islam has no problem sacrificng children.

So why are you putting up a vid of kid who is going to a place freer than where you are?

Jealous? You should be. That kid is closer to freedom than you, and all for the price of showing his belly.

Wow. I'll show them my belly if that's all it takes to pass into heaven on Earth.

Israeli War Crimes Against Children During Operation Cast Lead

Besides vast destruction and mass population displacement, 313 children were killed among the 1414 who died over a 23-day period. Of the 5300 injured (many seriously), 1606 were children. In all cases, the vast majority were noncombatants.

Of the children killed:

– most were at home or nearby;
– around one-third were girls and the rest boys;
– almost 15% were under age 5 and another one-fourth between 5 and 10;
– the remainder were between 11 and 17;
– the “overwhelming majority” were killed in densely populated residential areas;
– 46% were killed in northern Gaza;
– 38% in Gaza City;
– 9% in Khan Yunis and Rafah and 7% in less densely populated areas.

Israel used conventional and illegal weapons. The former included missiles, artillery and tank shells, mortars, and automatic weapons.
Others included: – white phosphorous that burns flesh to the bone and can be fatal; it’s use is prohibited in civilian areas.

read more

You a UN shill?

Why are all your respources from UN sources. Think USAID to the UN is better spent for you to hide your hate in the name of children?

Granger, Are you, in fact ...Tommy Flanagan?

Tommy Flanagan

Granger, You have really gone off the deep end. Seriously. You sound like you have been possessed and are channeling Michelle Bachman, Dick Morris, John McCain, Lindsey Graham, John Hagee all rolled into one!


Perhaps it is best to use Formosa's Rule where you are concerned.

P.S. (((( With Love From Israel )))