48 votes

At what point do we stop paying income tax?

The government in its present state can’t sustain itself without the I.R.S., plain and simple.

In 2013 the federal budget was 2.9 trillion but the gov’t managed to spend 3.8 trillion, 25% over budget. The I.R.S. collects approximately 2.5-2.8 trillion a year so this revenue is the primary means of gov’t sustainability.

If we stopped paying income tax there would be no more IRS, TSA, NSA, DHS, DEA, DIA, DOE, ATF, EPA, CIA, FBI, and the list goes on…

So at what point do we stop paying income tax?

When cameras are in our homes? When the dollar collapses?

I’m familiar with the verse “Render under Caesar what is Caesar’s…” from Matthew 22:20-22, but I believe this is one of the most misunderstood verses in the Bible. People often mistake it to mean taxes should be rendered no matter what. I found an article written in 2010 by Jeffrey Barr that dwells with this very topic.


I’m curious to know what you all think.

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When we have a

well regulated militia security force stronger than them and able and duty bound to protect those who are to be attacked by the psychopaths for not paying them. When we have a security force stronger than their criminal goons then the Laws of Nature dictate our severance from all forms of falsely claimed obligations to them.

We need to start organizing such a force and utilize the resources saved from severance from them to fund the elite militia necessary for protection from the criminal empire's goons.

The most powerful Law of Nature is Time. It is finite and we all will run out of it. Use this Law to your advantage, for it offers you infinite possibilities...


It's not enough to be an island and do this alone.

We should all sign a list. Stand up publicly on the internet. This will allow us to all share our stories, what the gov is sending us, threatening us with, etc.

If we don't join together on this, we'll be picked off 1 by 1.

N O W ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

NOW ! ! ! ! ! !

Love Liberty, be Vigilant

"Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" (2 Corinthians 3:17)

Faith in God will prevail all things!

ecorob's picture

You make a very good point for...

today being the day.

its 'cos I owe ya, my young friend...
Rockin' the FREE world in Tennessee since 1957!
9/11 Truth.

"The government in its

"The government in its present state can’t sustain itself without the I.R.S., plain and simple." = factually incorrect statement. The federal government in no way is dependent upon the IRS. That is a myth propagated by public education, media, etc. Don't take my word for it, though, research it.

Larken Rose

Larken Rose would love to join this conversation. Larken explains that the "revolution" does not have to be some crazy violent revolt, nor some extreme form of activism.

Larken explains that when we stop GIVING THE IRS ANY AUTHORITY, and we actually become passive, and DO LESS THAN WE CURRENTLY DO, that is to stop paying our taxes, then the revolution will occur.

Once we realize the IRS only holds authority because we all believe it does, the authority is granted BY YOU, no outside power, then we have revealed the man behind the curtain, and the gig is up.


your six feet under.

It's time! Rand Paul 2016!

"Truth, Justice, and the American Way!"

"WE" will stop paying taxes...

At the the point when WE stop submitting to the fraud federal citizenship and start realizing that The United States is not a Country or Nation, but merely an international corporate agent for the American Republics, and that the Union of American Republics is just that: a union of mature, independent countries, or nations, existing for their own benefit in union with each other. The true Peoples of the Union are the peoples, nationals, of those republics.

US citizens are 14th Amendment statutory citizens who vote, pay taxes, have Civil Rights granted to them by their government, and otherwise do what they are told by their lords in DC. Here the Federal Government is the master and they are the serfs.

State nationals are Article 4 Constitutional State Citizens, not US citizens, who can't vote because of provisions of the 14 Amendment, have unabridged Natural Rights granted to them by their Creator, live under Common Law, pay no statutory taxes, and are answerable first to their Creator and then to themselves and their fellow nationals under the Common Law. To them, the Federal Government is a foreign entity of no direct consequence, and their own national [state] government is their servant.

"To see the cage is to leave it." ~ Stephan Molyneux

~ Engage in the war of attrition: http://pacalliance.us/redamendment/

Let's just say....

you give your kid an allowance each week...then one day, you find out the kid is spending this money on dope, or tattoos or anything else you might disapprove of...what do you do? This is the analogy I use when explaining the crime of the 16th Amendment to others.
On another point about taxes...did we not learn from "Creature from Jeckyl Island" that ALL the money we pay in as Federal Income Tax goes directly to the Fed as an interest payment?

Silence isn't always golden....sometimes it's yellow.

"The liberties of a people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." - Patrick Henry

I think we can make a huge

I think we can make a huge splash without actually stop paying. The government relies on us overpaying our income taxes so they can collect interest then pay us our 'refund' at the end of the year.

What if we start a movement to have 0 withholding on our income tax. It will take self control to put the money aside in a savings account and write a check on tax day but it will serve a couple very important factors:

1. People will see how much they actually make if they were not robbed of their money before they even get the paycheck.

2. The IRS will not recieve any money until tax day which will force them to rethink their budget and have the admin burden of collecting all the taxes at once.

3. It will be easier to shift this into non paying. If everyone realizes that all they have to do is not write that check on April 15 together it will crash the system. If they are getting a refund, they have the illusion they are getting a good deal.

It will take baby steps. At first, we could even start by telling your payroll manager you want 0 withheld just for one paycheck. I did this and it was almost surreal to collect all my hard earned money, even for just one check. It was a bummer to switch back but people need to realize the full fruits of their labor as the IRS is very good at hiding the fact they are screwing people.

We all share this eternally evolving present moment- The past and future only exist as inconsequential mental fabrications.

they will get your money "on time"

They will fcuk you if you reduce withholding -> by following up with obscene interest and penalties

Cyril's picture

Not any time soon, I'm afraid

"At what point... ?" Never, I'm afraid.

Or not until people realize that the lip service of the rent-seeking, parasitic, corrupt, self-proclaimed "great organizers of society" is completely irrelevant to the stubborn facts:

no matter how much they force everybody to be stolen, no matter how long... It never helps to fulfill the advertised intents, and they will always want to take and waste more of it, anyway.

The proliferation of perverted laws and social programs they're so addicted to - in policy making, that is - sure comes very much in handy for those great Supermen, in that respect, doesn't it?

Oh, and they will always want people, also, to praise them for their legal plunder, btw.

Am I inventing anything or is it enough to open and re-read the newspapers of 1, 5, 10, 20, 50, or 80 years back behind us?

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.


"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

The ONLY Truth About Income Tax

"Income Tax: Shattering the Myths" by Dave Champion


Brief Overview

An analogy

A rental property is supposedly owned by a person.

Another person rents the property from the supposed owner.

That is simple enough to understand.

Then the supposed owner can no longer pay the mortgage or the property taxes on the property.

That is also simple and easy to understand.

So the "bank" no longer is paid by the supposed owner and the "bank" will eventually act in ways that "reposes" the property from the supposed owner, because the supposed owner is no longer paying the mortgage or taxes to the actual owner or the actual entity having power to "reposes" the property.

Simple enough to understand?

Now think about the analogy in the form of the person paying rent to the supposed owner who is no longer paying mortgage payments or taxes to the actual people who will "reposes" the property.

This actually happens.

The renter becomes aware of the fact that the person collecting rent is no longer paying taxes or mortgage on the property being rented by the renter.

Screwee, screwor, or screwer?

Does the renter pay rent at the point when the renter realizes that the person collecting the rent is no longer paying any rent?

The answer is no in most cases.

Once the renter realizes that the payments are no longer used to secure the exclusive use of the property in question there is no longer any reason to make those payments because the actual POWER that will secure the exclusive use of the property in question will do so in due time. The person, or group, in question, the person collecting rent and not using the rent to pay the mortgage, or The Federal Reserve/Internal Revenue Service collecting the taxes but not using the taxes to pay off the National Debt, is obviously the same situation.

At some point the actual owners of the property realize that it is in their power to use their property exclusively.

This may be difficult to understand because of the ubiquitous consumption of falsehood.

The property in question is surplus wealth.

The property in question is the amount of wealth that each productive person produces each day that is more wealth at the end of the day than the wealth that existed at the start of the day.

When those honest producers realize that it is their own productive capacity that is theirs to command, then they realize how stupid it is to send it to known criminals.

Like this:

"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning."
Henry Ford

Those who I call Legal Criminals, those Central Bankers and those who are hired to cover up those crimes by those Legal Criminals, are the ones claiming to own something (surplus wealth) that they do not own. Paying them "rent" or "taxes" or paying them anything amounts to this:


"Society in every state is a blessing, but Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one: for when we suffer, or are exposed to the same miseries BY A GOVERNMENT, which we might expect in a country WITHOUT GOVERNMENT, our calamity is heightened by reflecting that we furnish the means by which we suffer."

As soon as the curtain is fully pulled aside and as soon as the criminals are known to be exactly what they are, the payments stop flowing.

End the FED
End the IRS
Bring the Troops Home (start in the mirror)
Do so by July 4th, 2014, start now, finish early.



On paper I owe 28,000 some-odd dollars...

in reality I told the tax guy who drove up to speak to me personally "what?"

(this was from business income, not personal, which in theory was paid from the business)

Aside from 30 or so letters they've sent since then they've only sent him personally once since and that visit was very short.

Why would you give your money to people who murder other people?

Defeat the panda-industrial complex

I am dusk icon. anagram me.

Awesome. I hope it does not

Awesome. I hope it does not get any worse than that for you.

Well if you earn an annual income.

Of less than $8000 a year you will not have to to pay federal income tax. Of course that's pretty hard to live on, but you can also work on jobs under the table. I know guy who used to have a moving company and when he went to the customer's house he would tell them he only took cash. This worked out really well for him and he only reported income that he wanted to.

You Don't Owe The Feds Any Taxes

Unless you earn money by exercising a federal privilege. eg. you are a federal employee...your money crossed the border...YOU crossed the border to earn money, etc...
You are probably taxed on your private sector earnings because you AGREED with some clerk who knows nothing about the law, who declared under penalty of perjury (so did you on 1040) that you made "wages" ( a term narrowly defined in the code to exclude private sector earnings) You failed to rebut the clerk, then doubled down by filing a 1040, declaring your earnings to be 100% taxable, etc...
I GOT ALL 2012 WITHOLDINGS RETURNED TO ME INCLUDING SOC. SEC. AND MEDICARE!! I can show you how (for FREE)You simply have to know a few definitions, a few Supreme Court cases, some simple rules of statutory construction, and how to find IRS form 4852 (hint: IRS.GOV)
Think I'm full of shit? TRY ME. WSHIELDS@COMCAST.NET
One last note. Civil (dis)obedience is SWEETER when the law is on YOUR side!!

“...taxes are not raised to carry on wars, but that wars are raised to carry on taxes”
Thomas Paine, Rights of Man

probably not very feasible if you file a W-4?

This is one topic I have had a hard time understanding. I haven't read too much into it either (probably should...). Since I work for a company that isn't mine, doing this is probably not possible (or very difficult) to do right?

Homeland security statement: patriotism is now considered terrorism.
I love www.isidewith.com shared it with everyone I know. If anything they realize its not just a red and blue idiot running for reelection.

AND...ALL FOREIGN AID, World Bank, IMF, U.N. payments...

might end too altho I'm SURE the government will attempt to continue to give away BILLIONS UPON BILLIONS a year to foreign governments and international organizations.

This transfer of American tax dollars is TOTALLY un-constitutional and criminal.

It is THEFT from the American Treasury.

ALL these programs should be abolished FIRST.

But the government always tries to hurt taxpayers the HARDEST by ending domestic programs to scare the sheeples into agreeing to pay more, more, more.

"We have allowed our nation to be over-taxed, over-regulated, and overrun by bureaucrats. The founders would be ashamed of us for what we are putting up with."
-Ron Paul

There is an Alternative

Consider a fair system of taxation that eliminates the IRS.


Yea, would be nice, if they

Yea, would be nice, if they didnt also throw you in jail and take your money anyway.

To climb the mountain, you must believe you can.

you're still paying taxes, weird

how did the iraq war thing work out for you? i also saw you raided 4 or 5 medical marijuana dispensary's last week in Washington state, congratulations.

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders (obama)and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

Romans 13
Submission to Governing Authorities
13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.
6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

Official Daily Paul BTC address: 16oZXSGAcDrSbZeBnSu84w5UWwbLtZsBms
Rand Paul 2016

Good verses to bring up

They definitely seem to promote complete and total submission to any and all authority. They are worth thinking about and discussing.

Jesus and the New Testament is about spiritual rebirth, becoming an agent of good on the planet while focusing on the kingdom of heaven that is to come and not being consumed with the worries and concerns of this decaying world. I think these verses need to be taken in context of that paradigm.

Therefore, behavior that is contrary to living in accordance with the New Testament paradigm is not being promoted in the above verses. The Bible always has to be read in context. All individual passages are merely parts of a whole. They aren't to be read as isolated, unconnected pieces. If the passage says obey all authority, it is implied that authority is to be obeyed as long as that authority is not demanding that you go against the central premises of the teachings of Jesus. These passages assume just authority, or at least authority that is not characterized by corruption, lawlessness and all other mischief.

If the U.S Federal Government is the authority and that authority demands that you enlist in its military and participate in murdering your fellow citizens that are of the wrong political or religious persuasion, I believe it is Biblically correct to disobey that authority. I am using an extreme (albeit not far fetched) example but I believe the same understanding is appropriate in less extreme examples, like paying taxes to a government that will use that money to do great evil in the world.

Don't take these bible verses out of context.

Particularly not Romans. Romans IN CONTEXT was clear that we are subject to governments AS A PUNISHMENT for immorality; the more immoral, the more subjection; the more self-CHOSEN individual morality engaged as a whole by a nation, the lighter the hand of government.

Sounds pretty libertarian to me.

Chuck Baldwin speaks and writes at great length on this subject:

that was Awful kind of him

so if i and everyone else choose not to break the law and smoke marijuana and disobey the authoritarians as god has commanded then we are free because then they can't jail/cage us for using a medical herb?

or are gods authority's here on earth wrong with most of their laws?

who are you to decide and question gods chosen representatives here on earth.

Official Daily Paul BTC address: 16oZXSGAcDrSbZeBnSu84w5UWwbLtZsBms
Rand Paul 2016

my own boss


Homeland security statement: patriotism is now considered terrorism.
I love www.isidewith.com shared it with everyone I know. If anything they realize its not just a red and blue idiot running for reelection.

tell your employer you're an

tell your employer you're an illegal immigrant and BAM! No income taxes.

A lot of people are angered about this and don't like illegal immigrants for it, but I like it.

Think about it: If government isn't doing a good job, then why reward them by paying taxes?

The point is now. Paying

The point is now. Paying income tax is like giving Uncle Sam another shot of heroin. Uncle Sam has turned into a junkie. Time for detox.

Never be afraid to ask simple questions.

offshore everything

it's what the big boys do to avoid taxes