-18 votes

Enough With The Israel Crap.

I GET IT. Israel is corrupt and run by warmongering politicians. I agree.

SO IS THE FREAKING UNITED STATES.

So is Saudi Arabia.

So is literally every single country that is in any way involved with Middle East politics.

Stop acting like Israel is uniquely evil - it's not. The nations surrounding it are just as bad and often worse. That does NOT make Israel good, but I am well and truly sick of constantly getting an earful of how the EVIL JEWS or EVIL ZIONISTS (WTF does that even MEAN?!) or EVIL ISRAELIS are somehow behind every single evil in the past half century.

For the love of all sanity, PLEASE stop blaming EVERY LITTLE THING on Jews/Israelis/Zionism. Please stop acting like Israel is some kind of uniquely horrible evil - it's just another country that's run by crappy politicians, not some unending source of evil spawned in the depths of Hell like some of you keep saying it is.

EDIT

Let me give a clarification. The posts that I'm SICK of hearing are the incessant "Zionists control EVEREHTHENG" posts and the individuals who are CONVINCED there is a massive conspiracy that gives Israel total control over the U.S.

No, there's not a conspiracy. There's a hilariously massive misunderstanding of the Bible, and thus we have evangelical politicians who are going by said misunderstanding - hence Israel's disproportionate effect on U.S. policy.

In short - I will GLADLY criticize Israel. I have never denied, nor will I deny, that it has an outrageously large effect on U.S. policy. But for Heaven's sake, please quit with the half-baked conspiracy theories about the "Zionists" who control everything, somehow. Rewind a hundred years, and see if it makes any sense to have Asians ranting about how the "Westernists" control everything through secret far-reaching conspiracies. Historical coincidence is a more than adequate explanation.

It's a load of crap, and the people who are convinced of a massive conspiracy are looking for someone to blame. Here's my advice - BLAME THE BLOODY POLITICIANS and the crap-for-brains zombies that elected them.

Criticize where you have grounds to criticize. You'll make much more progress that way.

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Granger was giving you the definition of Zionism.

Anti-Zionism is the idea that Israel has no right to exist. Period.

Zionism is that Israel has the right to exist. Period.

The argument is the Faith and Facts that people can't seem to agree on.

How easy it must be for the NWO Satanic MIC to keep people fighting over something they can never fundamentally agree on. Thing is, who just wants to live in peace with their tiny little country, and who wants to wipe them off the map?

Peace is the key. That can only be achieved when anti-Zionists concede their position and allow Israel to exist without violent terrorist retaliation.

Terrorism in the US is mostly non-sense, wag-the-dog, war-mongering politics and false-flags. In Israel it's real, and routine.

PEOPLE OPPOSING TYRANNY - Real Grass Roots!
Are you a POT or a PET - Person Embracing Tyranny?

Right

Anti-zionists believe Israel has NO RIGHT to exist anywhere!

The border issue.. Israel has a HUGE problem with borders because so many people all over the world are desperate to live in Israel. They make bad land deals (buy land illegaly, settle illegally) and Israel has to bulldoze illegal settlements..

The UN is a shapeshifter.. it changes every year with it's newly appointed.. since 1961 it has been diominated by communist and Islamic nations.. so one thing is for sure from the UN, there will be resolutions against Israel. There is a vid called The Legal Case for Israel and it does a good job explaining the facts about Israel's treaties, history about what law gave them this right and that, and what lack of laws in Palestine not being a state, creates a mess. Most zionists want a TWO STATE solution.. Palestine to be a state. Most people don't understand that most Palestinians want to be like Israel. We should want to be like Israel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ub2x5UvjUs4

A line must be drawn between anti-Zionism and racism.

"Anti-zionists believe Israel has NO RIGHT to exist anywhere!"

Technically it does not; it was bombed into existence by a Rothschild-funded terrorist cell. A notable member being Rahm Emmanuel's father; also a Mossad agent.

I am opposed to Zionist-collectivism but I certainly do not say that any of the Jewish people who have already settled there should be removed now. That would be callous and unconscious. I only wish for a stop to their brand of totalitarian collectivism which reaches far into the United States' control system. Ideally, a solution involving the loss of no one's life or land will be reached.

Of course there are racists who exist that hold contempt for all Jewish people everywhere and the state of Israel but this must intuitively be classified as racism, not anti-Zionism, which does not entail racism as a co-requisite.

Technically, it does

please watch, The Legal Case for Israel, and educate yourself on TECHNICALLITIES.

I LOVE conspiracy theory.. have a huge collection of tine foil hats to prove it.. THE LEGAL CASE FOR ISRAEL IS ALL FACTS.

Jewsih people come in many races, so anti-zionism is not racist.

Think about this:

Would you consider it the "right" of the Spanish conquistadors to have raped, pillaged, murdered and colonized Central and South American peoples and territories?

Do you consider it a "right" for early settlers of America to have committed genocide against Native Americans? Driving them from their homes and eventually forcing so many of them to their death?

The two situations which I have just described are analogous to how Israel was "founded". So quite frankly, any "legal" case made for Israel would be farcical and gravely insulting to many people including myself. Natural morality trumps any litigious fictions.

On a further note, apparently you cannot have a factual conversation without acting on a cognitive dissonance reflex reaction of labeling something a "conspracy theory". Too often this is the case with people when they are communicated information that doesn't sit well with them. As Einstein said, "condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance." Instead of being mature and thinking "ok I have been presented with this new information which I do not know much about, so I will investigate it for myself", you have chosen to act on impulse by asserting these are conspiracy theories and hats made of tin foil must be involved for some reason.

I don't agree

While I understand your analogy, and my father being born and raised on a reservation, I think when he said that it was better it be the Americans than the Russians, it was only a matter of time before someone was going to overtake the Indian Nation, it was better for the Natives.. that gave ME pause. He also had a lot of issues with his own people, joined the Navy when he was 16 with permission from his father and never wanted to look back. He did teach us Native ways, his heritage, but he had a great appreciation for America, as did many of his Native America friends.

That said, I think you should watch THE LEGAL CASE FOR ISRAEL to get the FACTS, not opion, not analogy just HARD COLD FACTS about how Israel came into being with LAWS.

On a personal level, I LOVE CONSPIRACY THEORY, long before Al Gore invented the internet read many books, had subscriptions to magazines.. LOVE IT. Some conspiracy is better than others, and when you LOVE conspiracy theory like I do.. you see, some are pretty lame, no matter how many believe it to be TRUTH. They leave out MUCH, which is why I moved on from being a 911 Truther by 2004..

I think Margret Mead, who was not refering to conspiract theory says it best: "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead

interesting--

to *me*, as a Christian, "Israel" is just another definition for those who love God--

but I think, personally, that there is something unique (positive) about the Orthodox Jew who loves God and wants to serve Him and doesn't want to do any violence.

I think about men like Rabbi Weiss (he is only one of many)--

He is a New York Jew. When I think of him praying with his family on Friday evening--

I think:

Israel

I don't think about the country that is comprised of many secular Jews who don't even pray--

Israel, in that sense, has a right to exist--

the right to live their religion IN PEACE--

just as any other religious person--

the right to aggress against other human beings should never figure into religion--

Yes, it has, in the past, and it's WRONG. Christianity was used to oppress native Americans, whether in the south (Spanish) or the north (British)--

and it was wrong--

the sad thing is that *we* can't go back and fix it now--

When men like Rabbi Weiss say, "Israel is a non-legitimate state and needs to stop its violence against the Palestinians" all I can think of is him praying with his family on Friday night and spending time in the synagogue with other righteous people--

and that says "Israel" to me--

So Israel means SO many different things to so many people--

and I think it was meant to be that way--

all very confusing--

Kind of like the man in the White House assuring everyone he is a Christian, while he allows torture to go on--

whatever his political party--

The 'state' of Israel doesn't need to be destroyed for positive changes to be made either--

that's a fallacy.

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

1988Vote

Whether I agree or disagree with you on issues, I appreciate the way your heart and mind work together, as I find that you put LOVE in your thoughts, which is a beautiful thing to witness.

THANK YOU Granger and Veritas and Lawmanjed

Thank you for taking time to type in your input.

OK one last question: So as an American who lives in a totally separate sovereign nation, why should I be paying taxes, OR more correctly enduring inflation, while handing off the debt+interest to my kids and their kids etc... to help pay for the defense of Israel?

I have heard a couple of reasons: 1. they are our allies or 2. some sort of religious thing from thousands of years ago about a temple.

And Granger just mentioned something about how so many people are immigrating to Israel. As far as I know there is nothing to stop them from building sky scrappers to house the new comers. I don't see this as a good reason for building on land outside their original borders. Its too bad they made bad land deals in the meantime.

Of course there is a massive deposit of Natural Gas on Palestinian land. But naturally that's not ever in this debate. And quite frankly this Natural Gas thing doesn't effect me personally. Royal Dutch Shell or BP perhaps, but not me.

I really don't want to learn about the legal technicalities of another country's existence. There are enough 'technicalities' here at home. I mean just look at the Morton Blackwell letter. Jeeze.

Is there something else I am missing? Because I don't see how this whole Israel thing fits into solving any of America's problems today.

I agree with Ron Paul - end all foreign aid and end entangling alliances. Israel would dominate in that case.

I too agree with Ron Paul

As I recall, the other posters you mentioned are like me and not seeing any reason American tax payers should be funding ANY FOREIGN nation. I have no problem sending MY money to Israel.. I don't think those who hate Israel should ahve our government rob them of their money.

The gas is off shore and It's Israels.

I'm in the GOP, on a committee, now a liberty committee working on local and state issues.. looking forward to supporting Rand Paul for president.

On a personal level.. Ron Paul's statement, that Israel is our friend, is what got me to seek WHY.. I had to think Israel is a friend, and look for reasons, and I found them, and I'm very pleased.. so goes Israel.. so goes the USA.

just so you know it wasn't me that down voted this Granger.

I'm glad you found a movie that you enjoy about Israel.

It's not about Israel

It's about the treaties and laws so one can understand the treaties and laws that allow Israel to be.. Israel. It's nothing to "enjoy".. not that I don't enjoy non-fiction.. but it can be pretty tedious, and the vid I suggested isn't too boring.. I had to watch it a few times to get the treaties and laws straight in my head.

I don't hate Israel

I don't hate Israel at all. I just don't want to put my kid's future on the line because of that issue. I don't find it important enough.

and hummmm No. It was clearly Palestine's.

I don't know if this link will work for you Granger

http://books.google.com/books?id=qSqAI9xKpBwC&pg=PA120&lpg=P...

It was clearly Palestine's

During the Ottoman war? During the British occupation? During the purge by the Grand Mufti to make a predetor trap to exterminate Jews migrating from Europe? From land sales?

Try watching THE LEGAL CASE FOR ISRAEL and get the facts. no opinion, no sides, just facts on what treaties UN agreements are in play.

Forced "friendship".

"so goes Israel.. so goes the USA."

Yes, for the American people I find it like being forced to be friends with the school bully who steals your lunch money!

I don't see it that way

I think Israel protects Americans oil interests, which many Americans don't appreciate, yet they refuse to stop driving or depending on food being shipped in..

I would not like seeing Israel go down and America crash and burn, cars rendered useless, no way to get supplies to people, but then, I don't drive much, my biggest addiction is DP.. I would survive.

Fun Fact the US has plenty of Oil.

Another Fun Fact is that the most oil is used in the CONSTRUCTION of cars. Not the driving of it.

And yet another Fun Fact is that Oil is most important for THE HEALTH CARE INDUSTRY.

Think about all the plastic that goes into a hospital visit.

Its all about making plastic. That's why CHINA needs oil. Not because of them being newly introduced to automobiles.

This thing about we have to protect Israel for the pleasure of our driving around is nonsense Granger. I'm sorry. But I heard that one about 7 years ago from a really ignorant GOP member who has since had an affair on his wife and she divorced him, he later dodged child support and was on the lamb for about 3 years and is now working under an assumed name in another state.

Sorry to bore you with that tale but every time I hear that argument I have to laugh because I first heard it from that guy. He clearly appreciated the ability to drive right out of the state. :-)

I agree with the first half of your post

Where I live, we have two very popular bumper stickers, "no oil drilling" and "PEACE". Seems many folks don't get the connection to me. We don't need to be over there extracting oil from old contracts and investments if we began pumping oil here.

Maybe you can explain what I'm missing.

People are individuals, regardless of where they are from.

That includes people from Israel. Governments are evil (regardless of whom they govern) to include governments who lose authority to other governments. There is nothing wrong with being born and or raised in Israel whether they are Jewish or not. Actions are what I judge people by. They happen to be individuals.

Séamusín

Israel = Fiefdom of the Rothschilds

Rothschilds = world financial controllers of the highest order. Imperialist by nature; all political pawns and "news" organizations are controlled by their global influence in the fileds mentioned: finance, politics and media. Also they control CIA/MI6/Mossad.

The Israeli position is (almost) always the position that the House of Rothschild takes. Public figures who take a pro-Israeli stance are taking a pro-Zionist stance (Zionism being the front for the HoR) and hence taking the House of Rothschilds' stance which is one of the utmost ill-intent and malevolence.

I will promise never to question

the dangers in having too much influence in our country by foreign governments whether it be Canada, Mexico, or Israel, if you can explain the following:

Jews make up 2% of the US population yet they make up 33% of our supreme court.

3 of the 7 justices currently sitting are Jewish.

Exactly ZERO supreme court justices are or have ever been Mexican or Canadian.

Do you not find that extraordinary? Or even noteworthy?

The five largest media corporations control 80% of the media....radio, TV, print, motion pictures and all the rest.
And the CEO's of these media Corps. All Jewish.

Disney = Michael Eisner
Time Warner = Gerald Levin
Viacom = Summer Redstone a.k.a. Murray Rothstein
Sony = Michael Schulhof
Newscorp = Rupert Murdoch is not Jewish but the man that runs the show is Peter Chermin = Jewish

And the 2 biggest independents?

DreamWorks and New World Entertainment = Both very kosher affairs.

2 % of the population and controlling nearly ALL of the western media in every form!

Isn't that extraordinary? Or even noteworthy?

And I will forgo asking the question of who benefitted most from the Iraq invasion and the 911 attacks.

If you can rationalize this for me, I promise never to question the amount of influence the Israeli gvt. or any other, has in our country.

With all do respect, of course.

Americans

I believe those folks whose names you mentioned are Americans unless you're saying its impossible to be an American if you follow the Jewish faith, have a Jewish sounding last name, or came from a Jewish family?

The same reason that...

...African-Americans tend to make up a disproportionate percentage of sports in the United States.

Does that mean there's a big African-American conspiracy to take over sports? No. It's simply how things worked out. The association with Jews and banks actually began in the Middle Ages as a result of various social issues (involving prejudice on the part of Catholic Europe - oh no, I mentioned prejudice, I must be an Israel-loving Zionist!); as it turns out, quite often those Jewish bankers would not charge other Jews interest for religious reasons, but would charge interest on everyone else. The fortunes were inherited, and so on.

As another example - whites are VASTLY outnumbered by Asians, but up until VERY recently whites had a vastly larger impact on world events than Asians.

No conspiracy, just historical coincidence. I genuinely don't see how a disproportionate impact in any way implies some kind of vast conspiracy.

The 'Evil Empire' employing task-master Jews goes back to Egypt.

But employing them as money-handlers began after the Roman Empire conquered Samaria & Judea, in Jesus' time.

The Sadducies, and certain elite Pharisies were bought off by Rome and were given exclusive control of the Temple and therefore the people. The deal was they would only accept the Roman Caesar's coin in the Temple, as payment for the sacrifice. Having Caesar's face in the Temple was blasphemy and this is why Jesus' toppled the money tables. Hence his defiant quote..."render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and render unto The LORD what is the LORD's". This doesn't mean pay your taxes. It meant, F--- Caesar. Who is Caesar compared to G-d? Just another guy. It's all G-d's. He alone is your master, your idol, your G-d. It is the first commandment.

These task-master Jews are not the Remnant. By definition they have turned their backs on G-d, and are no longer Jews at all. These task-masters were only ever a minority of the elite of the Jewish people. So the 'Jews' people keep blaming, who don't even believe in G-d, are not even true Jews. The blessing of Israel has always been for the sake of the Remnant of the chosen people. The New World Order Satanists (like Pharoah & Caesar), hate G-d and want to take His place. They claim to be Gods. They hate G-d and so they hate His people. They will look to corrupt and destroy Israel (the place and the idea) because they hate G-d, but cannot hurt Him, so they attack His people instead. Traitors among the Jewish people are promoted by the Enemy, now known as the NWO. That's why you see it so much, lately, in certain venues like banking.
Entertainment industry is different. There are definitely your commies and plenty of Satanists, but there are also lots of really talented Jews, too.

PEOPLE OPPOSING TYRANNY - Real Grass Roots!
Are you a POT or a PET - Person Embracing Tyranny?

interesting--

tyrants aren't new--

(of course)--

it's just good to remind *ourselves*

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

Could another reason for toppling the tables be

because the leadership of the two religious parties permitted the Court of the Gentiles to be 'used' by the moneychangers, thus removing access to the worship service on the Temple Grounds? This seems to be implied by Scripture.

"Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern." ~~C.S. Lewis
Love won! Deliverance from Tyranny is on the way! Col. 2:13-15

Sure

Some Jews LOVE to think, work, act, compete, debate, be involved with life, genuinely interested in how and why things work, challange what is and strive to make the world better, sometimes that wors, and sometimes it doesn't, but they NEVER quit..

If Detroit was in Israel, Detroit would be thriving.

interesting

how the voting is rigged here now . . .

Jackson County Georgia

War is an instrument entirely inefficient toward redressing wrong; and multiplies, instead of indemnifying losses.
Thomas Jefferson

Awesome

TY!