43 votes

Can an Evangelical Christian please explain the obsession and servitude towards Israel

Im being serious and non-Sarcastic.

I really want to know why certain Christians are so obsessed about bowing down to Israel and Jews? It would just seem to me that the people who denied Jesus to the point they helped Crucify him wouldn't be so high up on the "Favorites List"

and if we were to play this out in Biblical chronological order it would seem like the Jews are anticipating the coming of the Anti-Christ as there Messiah since they rejected Jesus as such. So besides indoctrination and propaganda is there any other reason why Christians see no wrong in Israel and Jews?

by the way I don't have nothing against Jews, I judge people on Character not labels but the idea that Israel and Jews can do no harm and can never be criticized is absolutely ridiculous and detrimental to peace and cooperation with one another.

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

Scofield and his concordance or "bible"--

infected all of Christianity--

though not the Catholics, really--

I remember when I believed that Jews were superior to other human beings--

by 'right'--

(sacred right)

I remember when I thought that it didn't matter what happened to Palestinians; the Jews were MEANT to have the holy land--

I remember weeping at night over the holocaust, and how could I live in a world that would allow that to happen?

I was VERY pro-Israel.

And then I had a change of mind and heart--

and a spiritual change as well--

I am now greatly at odds with my church and with most of my extended family--

luckily spouse and I are on the same boat--(or page or whatever it is called)--

but we are absolutely surrounded by warmongers who are pro-Israel and don't weep for the killing of anyone with a brown skin, as long as Israel is 'safe'--

I used to believe that, and it's hard for me to think that I'm in the same body I was in back then--

I shake my head over it; what other things did I swallow (besides that the U.S. government was benign, maybe a little clumsy, but *we* were the 'good guys')--

it was hard when I woke up, and I haven't adjusted yet, and I've been waking up for decades--

the big, CLUNK, wake up took place about 25 years ago--

I am 'mixed race', but mostly white; I have no Jewish ancestry; my spouse does, however--

spouse is not 'mixed race', but is all 'white'--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

"All of Christianity" might be a bit too broad.

It infected the Anabaptists of the US and Canada, but they are numerous.

if not infected, then affected--

those who have not partaken of Scofield's false ideas--

have had a lot to do to keep it from overcoming their own belief systems--

it has been pervasive--

can be overcome--

but it has done a lot of damage--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

Quite simply, the answer is Genesis 12:1-3.

Before I expound, allow me to give a little background on who I am.

I was raised in your basic run of the mill non-denominational evangelical church. I have also spent time in both Israel and the West Bank. I found beautiful people on both sides of the wall and I have friends on both sides. Something I find interesting is that most Christians in America don't know that many of the Palestinians are Christians too whose families have been Christians longer than we have been a country.

I currently attend a Messianic Jewish Synagogue and learn under a Sephardic Jewish Rabbi. If your not familiar with the concept then imagine what Christianity would look like for the Apostle Paul who never stopped being a Pharisee, attending synagogue, or observing the teachings of the Torah (also something that most Christians don't know). Paul, as a Jew, received Yeshua (Jesus) as the long awaited (Jewish) Suffering Messiah who fulfilled the Law and Prophets (not abolished) and who is everyone's only hope of Salvation. By the way, Yeshua (Jesus) observed Torah as well.

I've been cautious about sharing this information as there is what I consider to be a lot of uneducated anti-Jewish sentiment running around on this website and I didn't want to get into a huge argument that went nowhere. Yes I love Ron Paul and want to end the Fed. No I don't think we should be sending foreign aid to Israel or any other country. Yes, I know much of the Global Banking cartel is run by people of Jewish decent. No I don't believe that the secular State of Israel is perfect in all it's ways (I disagree with many things it has done). No I don't believe that Zionists are the "real" enemy pulling the strings of all world events (although some Zionists may be involved at those levels). Yes I do believe it is in our Nations best interests to do what we can to protect the Nation of Israel, both the Jews in Palestine and those still in the dispersion, from annihilation.

Now to my answer:

Genesis 12:1-3 reads, "Now the Lord had said unto Abram (Abraham), Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."

Yah (God) was speaking to both Abraham and his descendents when it comes to this promise. Scripture tells us in both the Old Testament (Ps. 33:11) and New Testament (James 1:17) that Yah (God) never changes. As such, His promises never change. This is why many Christians hold that if our nation blesses the Nation of Israel, then we will be blessed, and if we curse them then we will in turn be cursed.

Some, in my opinion, use the above promise of blessing as an excuse to push their hawkish agenda and do things that I honestly don't believe are a real blessing to Israel. Foreign aid being one of those things and our general penchant for stirring up shit in the Middle East being another. I don't believe we should be involved in any preemptive strikes on any nation, Iran included.

Last thought. You will hear many say that Christians have now completely replaced the Nation of Israel in Yah's eyes and that the promise now pertains only to followers of Yeshua (Christ), not the Jews. I believe Romans Chapter 11 does a good job of making it clear that this is not the case, but that is a discussion for another time.

Sorry for the long winded response. Hopefully it helps.

Cheers!

Yah, what you said

I am not Evangelical but I wanted to add the in general the evangelicals take the bible far too literally. Considering that he bible has been translated many times over by scribes of varying degrees of skill in language makes this a dangerous thing to do. I believe the evangelicals are mistaking the nation of Israel, with the people of Israel I.e. gods people. Essentially the meaning of this boils down to the golden rule, and gods people are all those who worship god Christians Jews, Muslims (those who truely worship god and not Muhammad who of course was only human) everyone.

Josh Brueggen
Engineer
Entrepreneur
Gardener
Jack of all Trades
Precinct Commiteeman Precinct 5 Rock Island Co Illinois

I respectfully beg to differ.

I would contend that translation is a non-issue, first of all. When you compare EVERY copy of the Bible we have, including all the oldest manuscripts, they are 98% accurate to each other. The 2% inaccuracies do not affect doctrine at all, such as adding a zero to the number of horses and other things of that nature.

Also - Christianity and Islam are utterly at odds with each other. While Allah and Yahweh might seem similar at face value, the understanding of WHO they are is totally different. The Muslim god is not the Judeo-Christian God.

I would contend the primary issue is CONTEXT. It almost always is - it is genuinely astounding how many times a passage is taken out of context to mean something totally different. My dad, a former preacher, is fond of saying "Never read a Bible verse." After the nervous/shocked looks, he follows it up with, "Always read at least a chapter."

I think the main problem is that

Most people read into the Scriptures what they want to read. There is an entire book for context and most people, Christians included, have not read it in its entirety.

The conflict between the Jews and the Muslims/Arab's is unbelievably complicated and thinking that "if only this side would do _____ then everything would be ok" is naive in my opinion.

I think the promise is more specific though than just adhering to the golden rule. I want to make it clear though that I am not against us supporting the State of Israel in a conflict where they are not the aggressors. I believe coming to their aid in that instance is perfectly in line with Scripture. Israel, miraculously, is still a nation. As such, if we believe in Yah, then blessing them is a no brainer. Let's just be careful to be sure that our blessings are in fact blessings.

Abraham's seed are . . .

also the Arabic people, many of whom are Muslim. But, yes, there are many Christians in Palestine and Gaza, and some of them have been killed.

Because of so much migration, there is little doubt that most human beings have the 'seed of Abraham' in them--

there are African tribes with Levitical DNA--

so, maybe the truth here is that violence needs to stop, against humanity--

whoever is doing it (whatever his/her religious persuasion) needs to stop and is not pleasing to God and will be cursed by God--

ultimately.

Applying Genesis only to the people of Israel or the Jews becomes invalid when you consider that the seed of Abraham has gone into the entire world--

And I was raised a Bible-reading Christian; I still am a Bible-reading Christian.

I was raised to support the State of Israel; I no longer consider that a righteous thing to do--

but I do support righteous Jews (or Muslims or Christians or Hindus or Bhuddists; most have the seed of Abraham); Jeremiah was said to have gone (under pressure) to Egypt, where he died or was killed, and the Jews went from there to India--when many wanted to return north they were called "Gypsies" from "Gyptian"--what the Jews who went to Egypt were originally called--

Abraham is everywhere--

and that is the point--

Nobody deserves to be hunted, killed, persecuted or not allowed to live his/her religion--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

Abraham's "seed" that Genesis is talking about is

the start of the generational line that Christ would come from. In the meantime the Hebrew people were chosen to represent God to the world in the same way that a teacher chooses a student to work out a math problem on the chalkboard in front of the class. The Israelites were chosen for that and for Messiah to come through them.

God finally kicked them out of their land for their unbelief. The Jews' (not just a bloodline but also a religion) possession of their ancient land was based on a covenant between them and God, and still is. They are not entitled to that land just because they are Jews, it's based on faithfulness to Almighty God.

As far as races go, there are only two, now: those who believe and those who don't. The seed of Abraham thing isn't genetic anymore, but based on faith in Christ. The sons of Abraham are now the worldwide Church. The Jews were cut off of the olive tree for their apostasy and the Gentiles were grafted in. At some point the Jews will be grafted back in.

Pure genetics really don't matter very much, but identifying with a religion does. Those who practice the Jewish religion are Jews no matter how much they have intermarried, or who has converted to it from outside the bloodline. Many Jews are in Israel, the deal is done, and we have to accept it and deal with it just like we have to deal with America being owned by Europeans, now, and not Indians.

In context though, Isaac is the child of promise.

Scripture is pretty clear that Isaac is the one who Yah was referring to in the Promises. In Genesis 18, Yah promises to give Abraham a Son through his wife Sarah. This promise was not fulfilled immediately and Abraham and Sarah both decided to attempt to fulfill the promise themselves by having Abraham take his Egyptian servant Hagar as a concubine who bore him Ishmael.

Later, Sarah would conceive and Isaac was miraculously born. Yah would then say in Genesis 21:12-13 "...in Isaac your seed shall be called. Yet I will also make a nation of the son of the bondwoman (Ishmael), because he is your seed.” Yah, made Ishmael into a great nation, but from what I read, this nation was not the one of promise.

Yes, many more people than we realize have Jewish blood in them, but not all, or maybe even most. I don't hold to the idea that Abraham is everywhere so we are blessing Israel when we bless everyone. The golden rule is separate from the promise of being blessed as a result of blessing Israel.

My view is that what many think of as blessing Israel is in fact not a blessing at all. Our foreign aid is mainly used as bribes to get other nations to do as we want. I do not see that as a blessing.

I definitely think Sarah and Abraham were wrong to . . .

show such lack of faith in God and allow Abraham to impregnate Hagar--

but Hagar received promises, as did her innocent son--

We could discuss, or even argue, this endlessly--

:)

the fact is that people are full of surprises--

some of the grandsons of Isaac did some despicable things--

and some of Ishmael's descendants have been truly Godly people, whether Christian, Muslim, or Jew--

each individual, thank Heavens, has the right to choose whether to be good or evil--

whether to choose God or satan--

and THAT is the most important thing of all, despite bloodlines or religious labels--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

peaceful - no

we cant explain it.
I am a born again Christian since 8 years old and ONLY after getting my eyes opened in 2008 by Ron Paul, have I begun to question things.

The GOP OWNS the Christian community.

You will hear references to the Old Testament promise from God to Abraham. Funny, though Christians like to pick out the bits that they're ok with from the Old Testament and ignore others.
I have read and reread the New Testament Gospels and the Jews of Christ's time hated him and the Pharisees(equal to current religous leadership in Israel) tried to kill him or have him killed more than once. Christ stated that he would see a harlot in Heaven before the Pharisees.
Now fast forward 2000+ years to now and you think the political and religious leaders in Israel NOW are more ethical and God fearing than in Christ's day??

ahahahahahahha!!!! aaaaahahahahahah!!! if you do, you're a fool.

Understand one thing. I love Jews. The documentary Occupation 101 illustrates how there are wondeful people in Israel who hate what their government is doing, but I'm not blinded enough to give them carte blanche.
For our government, it's all about the Benjamins baby. quite fitting isnt it. LOL

Jackson County Georgia

War is an instrument entirely inefficient toward redressing wrong; and multiplies, instead of indemnifying losses.
Thomas Jefferson

Can you explain why you care when....

...Ron Paul says it's none of your, my, or his business?

Revelation warns of false apostles and false Jews

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, commonly referred to as, "Revelation", was given to John; the same apostle that earlier wrote the Gospel that bears his name, and several letters. The Revelation starts out with a peculiar blessing: "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand." Revelation 1:3

He then addresses seven churches, where among the praise for one is given him to write, "I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars" Revelation 2:2

Further on he records to another, "I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan." Revelation 2:9

To yet another church He says, "Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee." Revelation 3:9

Obviously, not all who say they are either apostles or Jews are what they say they are, but seek to use these titles to gain undue influence over unsuspecting hearers.

The other side of the coin is that true "apostles" and true Jews also exist, and ought to be recognized as such Biblically. Tragically these days, they are as little heard from as true Constitutionalists in our Satanically seduced society, where the legitimate roles of both church AND state have been largely abandoned by professing Christians who neither read, nor keep, the Holy Bible and the Constitution!

Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them. - Frederick Douglass

meekandmild's picture

the political state of Israel was formed in 1938 or 48

The political state of Israel has nothing to do with the 12 tribes of Israel found in the Old Testament. The political state of Israel tries to convince its Israel found in the bible.
Members of 12 tribes of Israel exist, some may or may not live in the political state of Israel.

The answer to this...

isn't that short, but I will try my best to explain as briefly as possible.

Reason #1 - Ignorance: People ignore a lot of facts about Israel that are established in the Bible. Hosea 4:6 - "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children." God established the "Nation" of Israel, but due to their disobedience, God made a new covenant (to include the Gentiles among other reasons) and also scattered them abroad by the hand of Rome (prophecies of Daniel). In order for Satan to be able to deceive the entire world with the False Messiah, he has used his agents to establish the "State of Israel", under International Law. A "State" and a "Nation" are two different things. When Jesus returns, he will gather the true Israelites (the ones who have been spiritually circumcised, not focused on race or nationality). There is a lot more to say here, but I'll leave it at that.

Reason #2 - Secret Societies: Satan's agents include all Secret Societies - Jesuits (Babylonian Priests of old and Knights Templars), Zionists (Jewish Freemasonry), Sabbateans, Frankists, Order of Malta, Knights of Columbus, Freemasons, Rosicrucians, Muslim Brotherhood, Pilgrim Society, CFR, RIIA, etc. 2 Corinthians 11:14-15 "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works." Jesuits have infiltrated all "Institutionalized Churches", which i will clearly state that are the Apostate Churches, daughters of the Great Whore, and not the true Church of Christ. The Jesuits are the most powerful of all Secret Societies, and they use Freemasonry to control the "Institutionalized Churches" from within. Masons worship Lucifer (see Morals and Dogma by 33rd Degree Freemason Albert Pike, who was instructed by Jesuit Jean Pierre de Smet), so how can a true Pastor be a Mason? You can't worship two masters, and people don't really give much importance to Secret Societies as they should. The true structure of power all over the world is defined by Secret Societies and NOT Nation States, Trade Agreements, etc. Due to the massive infiltration, all religious institutions have been brought into the New World Order fold. The religious leaders are part of the plot, and they are paid well in order to deceive the masses, who don't verify what they are being told. The blind masses just parrot what their false leaders tell them.

There are many more things that can be said, but this isn't meant to be an exhaustive explanation. I don't expect anyone to trust what I say, but to research and verify for yourself. The "State of Israel" is an important piece of the New World Order (aka Globalization). Most of the people who claim to be Jews nowadays are mostly Khazarian Jews or Edomite Jews. Whoever knows their history will know that the Edomites were forced to convert to Judaism back in the second century before Christ, and have taken over from within. The Edomites are the true Jews' enemies, and are now working with the Vatican to consolidate world power in Jerusalem. If anyone would like to discuss this topic further, they are welcome to contact me. Also, I welcome any corrections since I know that I don't know everything, but I know to research everything before considering it as fact. Please ask yourself: "Why are all Presidents, Dictators, Representatives, Senators, Bank CEOs and all positions of power members of a Secret Society?", and "Who controls all Secret Societies?". These are questions that people who truly seek truth, need to strive to answer. Beware of trolls and deceivers since they abound in all places!

Regards,
Alex_B

I am not and Evangelical Christian.

But as a follower of the Way of Yahshua my answer would be as follows.

Jacob was called Israel spiritually by GOD. Jacob means "supplanter" and Israel means "Whom will rule as God". Israel also refers to those who accept GOD's covenant.

Why do so many Christians have an undying support of the state of Israel? Because of there misunderstanding of the Scriptural promise by GOD to save Israel and to destroy the enemies of Israel.

They see Israel as the physical state and fear that if they oppose the state of Israel then they will be destroyed. They are actually supporting Jacob and not Israel.

Israel does not necessarily mean "Whom will rule as God."

It seems to be a conjunction of the Hebrew word "sara" which as best we can tell means struggle, and "El" which is an abbreviation of the Hebrew word for God. From a root word stand point, it would seem to mean "He who struggles with God."

I believe this to be the more likely of the interpretations due to context. Yah gave Ya'aqob (Jacob) the name of Yisra'el (Israel) in Genesis 32:28. After He gives the name, He qualifies the meaning by stating "for as a prince hast thou power (contended) with God and with men, and hast prevailed."

I admit that the translation may be off.

I can't truly say since I am only a student and not a master of Biblical Hebrew. But to the best of my knowledge "sara" is actually translated here as "have power". I did a quick search and in Hosea it is also rendered "have power". I will keep this in mind as I study.

"Have power as Elohim"?

This does go to once more show how names have real meaning in Scripture and the importance of understanding those names.

I do think that the whole physical Israel vs Spiritual Israel thing has got a lot of Christians barking up the wrong tree.

Bless you and thanks.

The trend I see is that

The trend I see is that people who use the NIV and its footnotes are the Israel nuts. They were never some chosen teflon people before the NIV came out.

People need to wake up to the notion that Ashkenazis are not descendents of Abraham, and that just because prophecy says that there being Israel and peace in the middle east does not mean that those things are good. A NWO was prophesied, yet that will be hell on earth.

Please come join my forum if you're not a trendy and agree with my points of view.

I don't see how this could be true,

as the NIV came out in 1980, and the Israel firsters were around long before that time. I think it was the Schofield Bible, KJV that introduced this idea in 1909 or 1917,the first versions being distributed then. Most of the people I know who are stubbornly Israel firsters are KJV only types. And the ones I know who are non-Israel firsters use the NIV and/or the Geneva Bible version, which predates even the KJV.

true, hopefilled--

the other guy spells Scofield correctly, though--

*wink*

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

I thought the Scofield was

I thought the Scofield was the NIV, my bad. The Scofield is what I was referring to. My point is that these newer bibles have all been corrupted by illuminati/masonic/zionist/whatever interests.

Please come join my forum if you're not a trendy and agree with my points of view.

The Scofield Bible is the Authorized Version (KJV) with

notes in the "margin" by C.I. Scofield. He didn't corrupt the text of the Bible, he just added his own interpretive notes.

I don't really care for

I don't really care for wikipedia because it's biased, but it says that the Scofield bible is edited and annotated from the KJV.

Please come join my forum if you're not a trendy and agree with my points of view.

The editing and annotation it it talking about is

Scofield's commentary on the text, cross referencing tools, etc. It has been done by others since, like Charles Ryrie, Jon MacArthur, and others. The Geneva Bible that predated the Authorized Version (KJV) also had commentary included in the "margins".

Annotation is never

Annotation is never considered editing. Editing is changing the actual content of the main text. So is it edited or not?

Please come join my forum if you're not a trendy and agree with my points of view.

And ADDED and ADDED and ADDED...................................

http://vimeo.com/29901084

Ever wonder why so many Christians support America’s many wars, especially in the Middle East? A new Christianity has emerged from the Twentieth Century called Christian Zionism or what could be called, "Angry Evangelicalism," or "Dispensationalism on Steroids." What motivates a nationally known, evangelical preacher like John Hagee to call for a preemptive strike against Iran when it is contrary to what Jesus taught and commanded his followers to do? This “Roots of Zionism” presentation may be the first of its kind with a factual explanation of how Christianity’s latest apostate epidemic was launched with the publishing of C. I. Scofield's reference Bible in 1909, and the influence of the notes in it

Abraham

I was taught that because Abraham..the first Jew..was the father of Gods chosen nation..a direct link to Christ..we should protect Gods chosen people at all cost and by doing so, we where standing up for God, joining Gods army.
I have nothing against Jewish people...I have the problem with anyone..no matter their faith or lack there of..who wants to control my life.
The first gift God gave us was life..the 2nd was Freedom of Choice..that was granted to Adam & Eve and past down to us. Thats the argument I use.

I believe in Hope & Change..I Hope the government will Change
Spindale-Rutherford County-North Carolina