8 votes

Abandon Ship!

It's scary but I think it's time to abandon the ship. The ship of which I am speaking of is "oil dependance." The ship's infrastructure is too vunerable to manipulation, easily destroyed, the main cause of many wars and toxic to the environment. It's going down and everyone knows it. For that reason I think it's past time to get on another ship.

So my question to DP is "What ship should we start supporting & board en mass before the SHTF"?

Out of all the different energy concepts available I believe we should now go "methane" and/or it's derivatives, i.e. biogas, propane, etc.

Here's why, it's cheap and easy to obtain or make and doesn't take "billionaires" or a lot of infrastructure to get going or switch over to. In fact a lot of the methane concepts are already "up, running and tested." The switch could happen relatively easy and we should not wait until were "forced to go there." At this time, it looks to me as the only thing we've really got.

If you believe or know of something better that is actually "doable and inexpensive," then please let's here it and why you think so.

See: Biogas-The Movie 6 min.

P.S.
For anyone who believes there will always be petroleum available, that may or may not be true, but at "What price would that be"?



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Teslonian Man shows how to make gasoline with home items

Easy set up and pretty cool. He used wood for this video, but the rig could make gasoline from a number of items.

Teslonian Man Show! Make "GAS" from Wood"! Part 1 (35 minutes)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP5qbKS_8VY&list=PLw28_n7Agc...

Teslonian Man Show! Make "GAS" from Wood Part 2 (18 minutes)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caGLlkMlLzw&list=PLw28_n7Agc...

LOL...!!!

:)

Duckweed

Duckweed is not only the smallest of the leafed plants but it is the fastest growing, it's high in protein and makes an excellent fish/livestock feed.
Like all organic materials it will decompose and produce methane.
http://www.dailypaul.com/268699/weekend-watching-integrated-...

http://www.duckweedresearch.blogspot.com/

You like duckweed??

I will GIVE you almost two acres of it. Heck, I will pay you $200 to take it. I'm not kidding. If you or anyone you know wants duckweed and can get it out of the water, please please please contact me!

Sounds like you have a high nitrogen content in stagnant water

I have seen aerial photos of hundreds of miles of duckweed build up in rivers and back waters. Agricultural run off and waste water containing nitrogen feeds the growth, it's natures way of cleaning up a polluted environment. If you could get the water properly oxygenated and introduce the right fish that may clean it up.

PERMACULTURE is the answer

Permaculture A Quiet Revolution ----http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uG2eHQ9Q078

I have been trying to spread the message of permaculture in the liberty community for a couple of years now. It basically is a direct and accessible path to total self-sufficiency and living off the land. But this is not "going back to the stone age" as some people might characterize it. The technology (i.e. not technology as machines but technology just as the methods we have developed) has so drastically improved that we can grow amazing food forests that feed hundreds of people with very little human input or manual labor. We also know how to build amazing homes from natural materials like cob, straw bale, adobe, earth bags etc... And it's so easy that even children and the elderly can help to build their own homes.

This is a system of abundance, not a zero sum game where the people inevitably lose.

But the greatest benefit of this system is that we do not need to ask permission from government or try to convince the people around us to adopt these ideas. We can just start implementing permaculture in our own lives, and people inevitably see how successful we are and want to do it too. Who doesn't want an abundant food forest in their own back yard and an amazingly beautiful home that cost less than $10,000 to build.

This is beautiful anarchy. I think we need to opt out of the system now and start creating our own world. Others are already forging the path.

Nice video.....

Probably, if man doesn't DV8 soon enough to permaculture like society, it could very end up being the product and/or result of a post modern society.

Liked how they talked up biomass.

Because: Some animals are more equal than other animals. -Animal Farm-

What the? > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MTIwY3_-ks

I like gas. It smells like love.

But if you're interested in alternatives visit

http://www.greencarcongress.com/

Pandacentricism will be our downfall.

wars have and will be fought

wars have and will be fought over oil. Dump oil and go to propane/natural gas? The same people will be cause wars to be fought over gas also. Many here do not know what is going on in the middle east right now. Russia is trying like crazy for natural gas pip lines not to built from Israel to supply Europe.
Or pipe lines to be built from Iran to India and China. No matter what you try to do there will always be some multi billion dollar company lobbying its government and paying them off to send young men to die for market share.

Well ya, but.....

What do you suggest we do?

If we stay on the same path, we'll get to where Nancy Pelosi is trying to take us, i.e. "Hell."

Natural/bio gas, or hemp is more easily decentralized because almost anyone can get on board with it. It not exclusive only to billionaire control. You can even easily make it at home. We can all cut into the billionaires pie on this.

Can't keep going down the same road, it's washed out.

Because: Some animals are more equal than other animals. -Animal Farm-

What the? > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MTIwY3_-ks

The ship of less fuel...

Diversity is the best policy. There is no one ship we should jump on. There should be growth and development in all areas of energy. Some forms are best in different environments, locations, etc...

The question that way too often goes unasked and is just as important is: How can we use less energy and fuel?

Re: The ship of less fuel...

I agree and disagree, here's why:

I like thinking divirsity, but I think in order to make things happen of this scale I think you need to develop a movement. That said, in order to get methane/hemp going you need as many people you can get on board "to go there"..... Allll aboard.....

Also, imo, using less is great and all of that as long as the output = more.....

Because: Some animals are more equal than other animals. -Animal Farm-

What the? > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MTIwY3_-ks

Not to be a jackass

but technologies that decrease the per-unit use of resources actually increase demand.

If cars got half a mile per gallon, gas might cost half as much and be more plentiful, but no one could afford to drive.

As it becomes cheaper to do so with increasingly efficient vehicles, driving huge distances all the time becomes worth the cost, and more and more people are able to do so.

It was the high pressure, high efficiency steam engine that allowed the steam engine to proliferate everywhere. The more efficient technology that decreased per-unit use actually increased overall consumption.

Similarly, electrically efficient technologies like LED lights will make it possible for the first time for people in the third world to light their homes. First world technologies designed to reduce domestic electrical consumption will probably have the reverse effect worldwide.

Author of Shades of Thomas Paine, a common sense blog with a Libertarian slant.

http://shadesofthomaspaine.blogexec.com

Also author of Stick it to the Man!

http://www.amazon.com/Stick-Man-Richard-Moyer/dp/1484036417

Petroleum should be used as a building material.

Then it can be recycled as fuel.

Methane is a great fuel. Tons of rotting material a year produce methane. Collecting rotable materials then capturing the natural gas can be an appropriate technology in many circumstances.

Energy is not the problem, so much as our wasteful use of it.

My full-size Buick Lesabre gets better than 32 MPG freeway. Or I could drive Cavalier manual transmission and get 32 MPG.

We call the Buick the "Couch" with leather seats and a huge trunk, available for methane upgrade.

Thanks, daily pauler!

(PS Did you recover your data?)

Free includes debt-free!

Thanks paul.....

Energy is not the problem, so much as our wasteful use of it.

I like that. Yeah, as far as I know most data is recovered, but I'm not sure what is lost to try to get the rest, but able to make ends meet with what I got.

Last I told you about the biodigester I made it didn't work so good. Then through in a some cabbage in it. Cabbage only was the key. But the digester has a leak. Four months later, you still don't wanna get near the thing.

Oh the smell is horrid.

Because: Some animals are more equal than other animals. -Animal Farm-

What the? > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MTIwY3_-ks

The digester bacteria have essential nutrients.

Cabbage has sulfur containing amino acids. that would be my guess.

Just like any other productive livestock the digester bacteria will thrive on proper nutrition.

Part of tuning for maximum maximize gas output.

Is the smell escaping into the neighborhood?

Free includes debt-free!

People talking up hemp

Hemp makes a great fuel and source of material, but like corn/ethanol it is just as greedy for land. From a land-use/energy-output perspective, there is no way we could grow enough hemp to satisfy the current energy consumption of North American cars, houses and factories.

Because hemp has been "banned" it's a viscerally satisfying idea to build it up into the "magic bullet" that could solve all our energy problems if only government didn't deny it to us. Consider Canada where hemp has been legal for years. We aren't any closer to oil-independence up here, last time I checked.

The solution will come from new inventions that unlock new sources of energy, or make existing sources many times more efficient. Hemp might have a small role to play in that, but it certainly won't be a major player.

Hemp Produces the Most Biomass of Any Plant on Earth

"Hemp is at least four times richer in biomass/cellulose potential than its nearest rivals: cornstalks, sugarcane, kenaf, trees, etc. Hemp produces the most biomass of any crop, which is why it is the natural choice for an energy crop. Hemp converts the sun's energy into cellulose faster than any other plant, through photosynthesis. Hemp can produce 10 tons of biomass per acre every four months. Enough energy could be produced on 6% of the land in the U.S. to provide enough energy for our entire country (cars, heat homes, electricity, industry) -- and we use 25% of the world's energy. To put which in perspective, right now we pay farmers not to grow on 6% (around 90 million acres) of the farming land, while another 500 million acres of marginal farmland lies fallow. This land could be used to grow hemp as an energy crop. " my emphasis added

http://www.peakbioceuticals.org/hemp-as-bio-gas-substrate.html

Not sure why no one is taking advantage in Canada but your other info on hemp is not quite on the mark.

Even if it's 10 times richer

... in biomass, it's still not enough to power North America's fleet of vehicles. Even if the US diverted 100% of all corn that could be grown in it's fields to biofuels, it would only account for 12% of the current use of gasoline in US vehicles. Multiply that by 4 and you still only get 48%. And it would mean crowding out other crops that are vying for the same space. That doesn't even consider consumption by power plants, factories, and for heating homes.

Then there is the energy expense ratio. To raise corn, ship it to the fermenting refineries and process it all takes energy. It's estimated that for every gallon of fuel ethanol produced, 3/4 of a gallon of gasoline was burned. I highly suspect that the ratio would be very similar for hemp; if there's more biomass, it will just take more energy to ship it and process it. At that kind of ratio any sane person would wonder why we even bother with ethanol as a mass-market fuel. The answer to that is SUBSIDY. Massive government subsidy.

You can make any claims you want, but the math, chemistry and politics aren't on your side. About the only thing that is is naive idealism.

As I was reading.....

As I was reading the thing that kept repeating in my head, was, as you said, "gov subsidies"....corn sucks. Watch the video "King Corn."

Anyways, our methane production could increase tremendously if our sewage and solid wastes facilities were tied into it. That along with the natural methane that's already available.

As paul_s said, the thing that limits energy is not the lack of, but the waste of.

But aside all of that, "What do you suggest we do?"

Because: Some animals are more equal than other animals. -Animal Farm-

What the? > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MTIwY3_-ks

In order...

If you eliminate ethanol, corn control over other countries, high fructose corn syrup and cattle feed, we would only need 8-10% of the corn grown now. None of those uses benefits us.

If you use the latest techniques and take over the above areas (taking corn's area from 14% to 88% for fuel but growing hemp) that's a 6.28 x 4 factor better, or 25 times as much fuel for that land.

Currently, ethanol provides about 11% of the gasoline used in the US so multiplying it by 25 yields 2.71 times as much fuel for the same land.

Energy expense, also termed EROEI, for ethanol is 1.29 (the reciprocal of your 75%) and 4 times the energy content means 5.16 times the energy returned on the energy spent to grow and refine it.

"Gasoline" is not used in the growing, harvesting, transporting or refining of ethanol. Diesel is, so I don't know where "It's been estimated" that 3/4 of a gallon of gasoline was used.

Ethanol IS subsidized to make it economical. Agreed.

I'm not making unsupported claims and I've shown my math. Yours is still suspect.

I'm not saying we "should" use all that land for hemp but rather supporting the case that we could and it would benefit more than anything else we have on the market today.

It seems like

It seems like you're just throwing around a whole bunch of numbers in the hope that they dazzle people into believing you.

If you eliminate ethanol, corn control over other countries, high fructose corn syrup and cattle feed, we would only need 8-10% of the corn grown now. None of those uses benefits us.

If you use the latest techniques and take over the above areas (taking corn's area from 14% to 88% for fuel but growing hemp) that's a 6.28 x 4 factor better, or 25 times as much fuel for that land.

What a bunch of meaningless number-crunching. No, I was talking about 100% corn diversion from all of those uses to fuel production. Doing so would only supply 12% of the vehicle fleet of the USA. So your nice little trick of introducing that 6.28 factor is just hand-waving.

Currently, ethanol provides about 11% of the gasoline used in the US so multiplying it by 25 yields 2.71 times as much fuel for the same land.

Haha, 11%? No. It's more like 3% to 5%. Again, your 25x yield claim is dishonest.

Energy expense, also termed EROEI, for ethanol is 1.29 (the reciprocal of your 75%) and 4 times the energy content means 5.16 times the energy returned on the energy spent to grow and refine it.

Funny thing, there is less chemical energy in a gallon of ethanol than a gallon of diesel or gasoline. Your 1.29 claim is probably describing the energy input needed in terms of gallons of ethanol rather than fossil fuels.

And here is where you've also (perhaps) unintentionally lied. You've claimed (and linked to sites) which say that you can grow 4 times the biomass of hemp on the same land area as corn. In the paragraph above, you've now claimed that hemp has "4 times the energy content" which is definitely not the same thing.

Are you moving the goalposts or what? Which is it? Does hemp have 4 times the biomass? Or does it have 4 times the energy content? I certainly don't think you mean it has both, or else you would have made a 4 x 4 = 16x claim some time ago.

So let's suppose by energy content, you made a mistake and actually meant biomass. Then you tried to spin that into a 5.16-fold increase in generated energy. This is false. 4 times the biomass requires 4 times the trucks to take that hemp to the refineries, all of them burning fossil fuels. 4 times the biomass requires 4 times the processing time and energy input to convert it to fuel. IOW, you'll need 4 times the refineries. You'll be very lucky to get a 1.5-fold increase in energy return on hemp compared to corn. More biomass just means the energy being used to raise/harvest/process/refine it is concentrated into a 4x smaller area. It doesn't mean you're using 75% less.

"Gasoline" is not used in the growing, harvesting, transporting or refining of ethanol. Diesel is, so I don't know where "It's been estimated" that 3/4 of a gallon of gasoline was used.

This is you being pedantic in order to sound knowledgeable. Okay, I apologise. By "gasoline" I meant fossil fuels.

I'm not making unsupported claims and I've shown my math. Yours is still suspect.

I've shown where you've made misleading or false claims, and the math you've been showing is mostly trickery. But you're welcome to continue believing that my rebuttals are "still suspect". I'm not here to convince you in particular, but rather to provide a sensible counterpoint for other people reading this thread.

I'm not sure what your goal is

Is it to prove you're right, I'm wrong, ethanol is great, hemp ethanol is not or just to troll. Either way, you're being frustrating in how you organize your thoughts.

Disclaimer:
Neither ethanol nor hemp is 'my thing'. My thing is solar. I run a solar R&D company and know very well the economics and energy balance equations. My company is tied in with numerous other companies doing various other things. The one doing hemp has better progress than what is commercially available now, so some of my claims (forgetfully) come from either direction. I had just looked up 'the commercial' claims and linked to them. I didn't notice they claimed 4 times the "richness" of biomass. It's definitely a subjective term. However, the facts are that hemp produces much more quantity per acre (4x ish if you will) and produces multiple harvests per year (2-4 depending) and can be processed into more ethanol (another factor of 1.5+) per ton than corn. Depending on how all the variables end up, that's roughly 25x more ENERGY than corn for the same land. Notice that I haven't addressed EROEI yet.

Corn ethanol produces 1.29x the energy in the engines using it as it takes to make the ethanol across the entire process. This accounts for the reduction in energy content as compared to gasoline. Hemp's EROEI varies with the process. Since it hasn't been legalized in US yet, which process is used is still in question. However, claims of known and researched processes range from over 3 to nearly 50. I'm not going to hunt down which claims are from what companies and which are from research but I'm very comfortable with a value of 20. I'll understand if you're not, but I happen to know some people who have a tremendous amount of time and money invested and they know what they're doing. These numbers are close to the projections they base their economics on so I trust them.

With a land use of the unnecessary corn crop and multiplied times 25, we definitely have enough land to supply our gasoline (note I didn't say diesel, oil or energy) requirements. The numbers point towards 2.5 times but even I doubt that. Fortunately, I think we only need about 50% of our current supply because of other transportation developments.

So, when this discussion is all said and done, hemp is not the only one but is a major 'tool' to use for getting off fossil fuels because it is many times better than what we waste money on now (corn ethanol subsidies). Can we agree on that much?

Well said tam....

Although I can't vouch for numbers, cause I just don't know, I like how it sounds. Be checkin into the link when I hopfully get some time again.

Because: Some animals are more equal than other animals. -Animal Farm-

What the? > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MTIwY3_-ks

HEMP

HEMP

Here-Here

Yes, it's time. In fact, it's been past time for a while now. There's hardly any industries that aren't massively corrupted by the support of fossil fuels.

Alternatives? There are some good and some bad. Ethanol from corn doesn't work out. It's not energy efficient and an overall loser. Bio-diesel, on the other hand is usually always a net benefit in both energy and CO2. Those are the only two that can tackle transportation with no retrofit.

To go to methane (natural gas), there are some changes but they're not difficult or expensive however this path has some other problems. Between fracking and the massive losses to the air in the supply chain more than offset any gains we get.

One direction that wouldn't be too difficult is hemp. We can make both diesel and gasoline from it, as well as hundreds of other things ranging from plastic derivatives to silks to concrete. This path would be a large benefit in all areas related to these products.

My personal direction leads down the path to more electricity. It is the great equalizer. We can produce it from numerous sustainable sources while using from this pool to perform tasks in every single use need.

Hemp!

http://www.hempcar.org/hempfacts.shtml

If hemp was legalized, any ol farmer joe would be able to grow enough hemp to support the community around him.

He would deliver it to a local 'processing plant' which then turns it into fuel, plastics, textiles, foods, ect ect. Thus, employing the nearby community with untold development of jobs, improving the standard of life for everyone, while being incredibly nature-friendly.

It would economize the production of fuel in every sense of the word.

Now multiply that over the continent. We wouldn't need to borrow from China to fund a war with middle eastern countries to protect 'american ineterests' (aka big oil corp).

Hemp, my friends, is the key to our future prosperity. All others can contribute, but without hemp we will be depending on big corporations for the 'solar fields' or the 'wind farm' developments... which leads us to the monopolization of the production of energy once more.

And when hemp is finally

And when hemp is finally allowed to be grown and its use spreads, people will start wondering why their heads were so far up their asses in regards to wanting to keep it illegal.

To climb the mountain, you must believe you can.