-2 votes

The religion divide here. Will it divide the movement?

I was brought up religious not that I had a choice. Now I not only don't care for organized religions but I actively despise them. Religion has been used for many years to control people and to serve and justification to repress other people ex. Philippine–American War).. And people constantly twisting it to fit their personal agenda (ex. KKK)

Lately a lot of posts here has been pointing to recent news items to some prophecy by jesus/quoting bible verses..

I don't mind people believe in whatever magical spirit they want no matter how little it makes sense as long as it does not interfere with my life.

I like Ron Paul because he stayed on topic about what was important without bringing jesus into it.. Younger people are more secular and it is a turn off to us when you start justifying libertarian ideas I agree with with bible verses

I can't relate to the 'Tea Party' myself.. I walked by a protest and they had the Obama poster with the hitler moustache and that garbage that gives media ammo to dismiss libertarians... And while some conspiracy theories may be true.. when everything that happens in the news people here link to a conspiracy it kinda looks silly to me... Id rather the movement be intelligent/logical/common sense and not be the butt of a joke..

Rand Paul is ok.. I am sad he is status quo on the drug wars.. but I guess at the moment hes the only realistic option to be excited about...

Anyone feel me here? Or am I coming across as a dummy ?

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"was brought up religious not

"was brought up religious not that I had a choice. Now I not only don't care for organized religions but I actively despise them"

Perfectly describes my background aswell, except despise is not far off, but a stronger word then i'd us, more like, too human for my liking, not that i dont discount the possibility of a higher being, but, i also dont discount that theres not.

You got me thinking, and pardon my presumptions, but what if jesus was nothing more then someone in a time who had a very good understanding of the thing we call liberty, that he understood and spoke of it so well that others could recognise the thing he spoke of within himself, what if jesus was a "ron paul" of his time(leave the ron paul/jesus comparison alone, im not saying ron paul is jesus, and if you read on, im arguing the fact that jesus may have just been an elightened normal guy)

When you think about liberty, especially in those moments when it feels like, as best as i can describes it, as a furnace warm bright light burning especially brithgly inside ourselves, our "souls", when you see someone argue a case so attuned to how you see it, and actually getting through to those he speaks, confirming that the idea brought fourth, HAS merit, that there IS something special about that idea, that is so universal, that when one hears explained in a way that gives it justice, that those without an agenda tk the opposite will immediatly get it......that is how i can best describe it right now.
The reason i bring that up, is that, my reaction to that, my "souls" reaction, the only thing that comes close to describing that, is what we have come to KNOW(intellectually) as a "religious experience", what if this "liberty" has been with us since our creation, whatever it may be, and religion was mans attempt to describe, document understand this thing, i can see why the godly like methos was created, because in those times of "soul shining brightly", it is a, well, lets just say, its not an ordinary walk in the park.
What if religion started off as something, and turned into other things along the way, where i have come to believe man made religion to be infallable, where i see the wisdom, but i also see the potential of man, or men not so religious, through this thing we now call politics using and twisting this thing to their use, and if im right in this suspicion, what is to say that they have not changed a word, a message, a saying in the generations of these man made religions, i say "these", as with like "liberty", it seems "religion" asls seems to spread, just another similarity in my book

What if religion was mans attempt to understand and share this thing we here call "liberty", i mean, can any of you guys here say you dont hope that "liberty" survives the generations, what might that look like hundreds of years from now, without our modern technology, barring the equivelant of a "digital book burning", do you think you would see similarities in the modern day religion, and the understanding of our freedom in the future, there are folks today who would love to use but then discard when they've achieved their goals, those that would discredit perhaps one will infiltrate, say, write something thats very well disguised as liberty, that survives the telling, in generations, something i account for or suspect in religion.....i dont know, im just contemplating here, ive only had this thought maybe once before, fleeting at best, thought i'd really think on it, type it down, and see if others have had that vague similar thought about it, fleeting as it was for me until kinda now,as i type this down in order to explain my "Itch" about it, right now

Supposedly, if this unlikely/likely scenario, i'd say there is a whole history, that us mere peasants wouldnt know about in that scenario, if my thoughts are correct, that the idea of "religion" started from the heart, but has been twisted in its use, then if in this day and age, with the likes of politicians and such, those who accumulate power and no responsibility to their actions, if these folks have been with us since the start, as the bible seems to indicate, in the few bits ive been exposed to(admittance of not reading bible in its entirety, not a slur or slander), then what history have they surpressed, twisted, PR'd........ill leave it right there as i feel this is turning into a longer discussion then i think im ready to have

To religious folks, i mean no disrespect, i was just contemplating a possibility, i lay no claims to knowing the truth of it, just a curious nature to think in such a way

The problem is religion in general.

Christ didn't come to start a "religion". Religion is what man has made of God's Word. Most, if not all, denominations of "Christianity" have simply reverted back to what Christ fought in the Temple. Humans put up a non-existent roadblock to salvation, by trying to force their own beliefs on people. You have denominations that say you can't be "saved" if you cut your hair, wear make up, drink beer, smoke cigs, smoke pot, believe in the 3 in 1 "Holy Trinity", and some even call others heretics because they can't agree on whether to use one cup or multiple cups for communion. These are generalized "legalism", which Christ fought against. If you need a good sermon then read "Sermon on the Mount". If you want to know what God says, then read God's word. It really is that simple. The wolf in sheeps clothing, that resides behind the pulpit, is more worried about his ability to control you than he is about your salvation.

On another note, there is a huge difference between someone that is an "Athiest" vs. "Anti Theist". I personally believe that it is impossible to be both libertarian and anti-theist. If you EVER AT ANY TIME go after someones religion or faith, and demean them because of their faith, then you are a terrible person. Absolutely nothing to gain, except the possibility of really spewing venom at someone who believes differently than you. Not a very freedom and liberty loving thing to do.

We can respect each other and work towards the same goals of liberty and freedom, and we can do it no matter our religious preference. You respect my beliefs and I can respect yours. Now if You put yourself on a pedestal, and put me down for my beliefs, then I will destroy your pedestal by any means necessary.

Perhaps the real question should be,

is Political Religion being used as a Political Wedge?

“The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum....”
― Noam Chomsky, The Common Good


is probably the only major issue on which there is a "religious divide." There's honest disagreement about the moral issues involved there, and no obvious way to reconcile them. And there may be some problems between Israel-firsters (howya doin', Granger?) and the rest of us.

But in general, there's no real argument between religious folks who believe in the Golden Rule, and secular folks who believe in the Nonaggression Principle. Liberty brings us together.

The religion of Statism is another matter entirely. But it doesn't split the liberty movement -- because statists aren't part of the liberty movement. They're the enemy.

Recommended reading: The Most Dangerous Superstition, http://www.amazon.com/Most-Dangerous-Superstition-Larken-Ros...

Dr. Paul...

...hasn't shied away from pointing out how interventionism, authoritarianism, etc. conflicts with things such as the golden rule, the OT ideal of decentralized judges vs a centralized monarch, etc., especially when speaking to an audience which comes from a religious/faith-oriented background. The moral argument is one of the arguments he employs. (Remember those people booing his mention of the golden rule in the SC debate last year?)

Let me know when this

Let me know when this religion divide appears on the DP and I will be prepared to be outraged by it.

Southern Agrarian

some of *us* who are religious--

but I might add, cautiously so--

would agree with you. I am not a neo-conservative; I 'struggle' with my fellow churchgoers' neo-conservativism--

We can agree on that.

I realize the dangers of being religious--and the dangers of religion, but I have still chosen to be religious.

And I see a lot of hypocrisy in my fellow churchgoers--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

punkouter: "I don't mind

punkouter: "I don't mind people believe in whatever magical spirit they want no matter how little it makes sense as long as it does not interfere with my life."

Somebody else making a post with religious references shouldn't interfere with your life....

"It's not important that we agree, it's important that we are allowed to disagree." is one of the most beautiful things I heard Ron Paul say.

How Ironic would it be, as Libertarians...

if let Religion divide us? I mean really... lol

I think the author of this thread needs to examine their own personal views and understand we are all different with different world views, as long as we can all agree on perserving personal liberty is what need to be focusing on, I dont see why we need to be divided over this

Which Movement?

If you mean the move toward libertarianism, of course not. Religious freedom is probably the main reason libertarianism came into being--that, and the multiple languages being spoken in the new country.

Being able to choose one's own authority to follow (including God) is the main reason for authoritarians to oppose statism and embrace libertarianism. It's only if you think your religion has the votes to impose itself on everyone that one might be tempted to use political power to impose it.

What do you think? http://consequeries.com/

Jefferson Said...

"But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

Abuse by professors doesn't cancel confessors of faith

Frederick Douglass gave this insightful view of his openly religious, brutal slave-master:

"Poor man! such was his disposition, and success at deceiving, I do verily believe that he sometimes deceived himself into the solemn belief, that he was a sincere worshipper of the most high God"

Despite all the abuse he had suffered and witnessed by some outwardly Christian slave holders, Douglass also knew that faith itself was not the cause of such perversions. He had witnessed the good faith of others, and found comfort and strength amidst his own crises by the faith that he found false professors, in the South AND North, only hypocritically hid behind.

Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them. - Frederick Douglass

thank you for this--


it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--