50 votes

My Position On Israel (Inspired by Granger)

Granger and others have been 'discussing' Israel. When the topic is raised in my community, I also get staunch supporting/opposing views.

My position is this: Israel is free to aspire all that they want, just as any other nation should be free to do. I do not support them, nor do I oppose them.

What I oppose is when OUR representatives entertain ANY foreign lobbyist as opposed to their own constituents. THAT is when I have a big and legitimate problem.

I am for world peace. I am for free market. But I am also for my Republic remaining sovereign, so that we who live here may protect it no matter what may possibly happen around the globe.

This may be a rudimentary post, but some things require rudimentary answers/solutions.

Btw: it has been said that Israel is smarter and more advanced. Maybe, maybe not, but when our representatives decide to invest in OUR nation and not nation-build overseas, I have NO doubt whatsoever that we can and will hold our own.



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I admit to being one of those . . .

who, in a knee jerk reaction to the zealous pro-Israeli sentiments of my fellow church members/extended family--

has become dubious about Israel.

The difference, however, between my wariness over Israel and that of some of the DPers whom I have read, is that I am far from being "anti-Jew"--

I stopped using the "Z" word a long time ago; I was attacked for using it--

but it is very difficult when someone who has seen the liberty-destroying disease that currently affects America--

down to the core--

and who is willing to speak up (1988vote) here and there and say, "America is dying, my friends" and point out how and why--

(and, by the way, I don't blame "Zionists" for the demise of America; I blame the evil and stupidity of regular, 'old' Americans, helped, of course, by a multi-ethnic group of greedy elites)

for *me* not to support Israelis and those who are associated with Israel (Jews who live in the U.S. who have family and friends there, etc.)--

who are sounding the alarm for Israel and exposing the evil there (which is very similar to evils that have been exposed here) as I have sounded it and continued to sound it for America--

these people are my 'kin' in liberty--

but when I bring them up, I am shot down--

and told that I am a 'hater'--

Just as well be a 'hater' for supporting Ron Paul; when anyone brings up discrepancy, whatever nation to whom he/she holds citizenship--

he/she is then a 'hater'?

It has become wearying to fight that fight, especially on DP--

I am outraged when people blame "Jews" (collectively) or "Christians" (collectively) or "Muslims" (collectively)--

trying to remain completely neutral, and, yes, I am a Christian, and my *own* people are very difficult for me to understand--

is an extremely hard thing. It is hard to come on DP and try to find neutral ground and work diligently to learn the truth--

only to have your 'teeth kicked in' by fellow DPers--

not worth the pain--

so those who are louder will win--?

sad state of affairs--

When people refuse to see evil, because it is being committed by their 'side'--

then all integrity is lost--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

LittleWing's picture

Well stated, 1988vote

Your posts over the years regarding Israel and Zionism have always been thoughtful, well informed and much appreciated. Discussion regarding ideology/policies of those currently in power in Israel is necessary to understand due to the powerful influence it has in our government on our U.S. foreign policy.

You have always rightly pointed out there are many in Israel that are against the hawkish policies but their voices are seldom heard. I have seen many groups there that bravely speak out, much like our anti-war folks here and I support their efforts.

Criticism of Israel does NOT equate to being anti-Semitic, a JEW HATER or HATER and those that continuously use those labels are obviously trying to stifle and bully any discussion/information on the subject and are not looking to engage in honest discourse, their intentions are disingenuous at best. Do not waste your time trying to have an honest discussion with anyone that wants to bring those false acusations forth and certainly do not let them keep you from posting on the subject.

As always, thank you (both) for your valuable input on this forum.

If Wars Can Be Started by Lies, They Can Be Stopped By Truth.

I stopped showing up here because of Granger and Israel

I just got sick of hearing about it. I'm with you ProudAmericanFirst. I don't support them. But I don't oppose them either.

Very similar to my views

Rather than look for Zionist conspiracy Israel is better understood as a nation zealously pursuing its own self interest. I blame our "leaders" for being so easily manipulated.

BTW, I have absolutely no sympathy for the Arabs in general and the Palestinians in particular with respect to Israel. Since 1948 they have all out attacked Israel at least 4 times and despite overwhelming numbers and initially superior weapons got their butts kicked every time. Only western intervention saved Egypt from having Cairo occupied. Actions have consequences. Does anyone honestly believe that if the war had gone the other way the Arabs would have shown any mercy? Four strikes and you're out. Cry me a river.

There is already a palistinian state. It's called Jordan. This would be a moot point if the Arabs had simply absorbed the Palestinians after '48 but they won't even let them become citizens, preferring to keep them as cheap labor and for leverage.

After WW2 the Russians gave Poland the territory of Silesia which had been part of Germany or austria for over 400 years. The Poles expelled the entire German population something like 7 million people the largest migration in modern European history. Ever heard of the "Silesian Liberation Army" ? No. The Germans lost and the Silesian refugees were absorbed into what was left of Germany.

Thetis

the problem is when America . . .

(the collective) takes 'sides'--

it's easy to tell that there is no neutrality--

There is a lot of misunderstood history in Europe; not all of it was as 'easy' as you make this sound--

and, you are correct, these things are not taught in history books.

I see very little pro-Arab sympathy in the U.S. There is some on DP--

but I see a lot of pro-Israel sympathy. I hear it all the time--

I want to be neutral. I want America to be neutral. America is not neutral.

Some of the "Christians" I know complain that Obama is too pro-Arab/pro-Muslim, and yet he has sent off drones to kill Arabs/Muslims.

"too pro-Muslim"?

How is that.

If a private citizen wants to participate on either 'side', fine--

but government policy makers should not favor either side.

As for Silesia, thank you for explaining it, but when you consider all the horrific acts Russian leaders committed during and after WWII, it's a drop in the bucket, if they did something good--

it's not the fault of private Americans or private Jordanians or private Palestinians that a similar "miracle" hasn't occurred in the middle east--

people are still suffering--

and don't imagine that people didn't suffer in central Europe--

the Czechs were quite merciless in 'kicking out' the ethnic Germans during and after WWII--

some say they were justified, since Germans had 'colonized' the area beginning in the 1700s--

but the fact is that many of those Germans were as much Czech as German; they made the mistake of having German surnames--

it's all terribly ridiculous--

and it's not all 'black and white'--

I had no more heard about the migration than the Silesian Liberation Army; there are still people there, apparently, as recently as a few years ago, who are unhappy with the situation--

the problem is that the American MSM is either contrived and manipulated or it is myopic; probably both.

I spend a lot of time trying to understand what is happening around the world; it is not easy for an American who doesn't have the resources to travel there him/herself to learn the truth--

truth is what is so desperately needed--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

Couldn't have said it better.

+1

“It is the food which you furnish to your mind that determines the whole character of your life.”
―Emmet Fox

Thank you, Thetis!

I have not found anyone that I agree more with on this issue. Others should read the points you have made, but you may receive some down-votes for them. The Granger tends to go too far in one direction, others go too far in the opposite direction. (Saying Israel should be wiped off the map is just one example of the vitriol I have read here)

"Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern." ~~C.S. Lewis
Love won! Deliverance from Tyranny is on the way! Col. 2:13-15

I couldn't agree more!

The fact that so much time is wasted arguing about Israel is one of my few annoyances with this online community. I still love it here though. =)

'The Jewish State: What It Really Means'

The Israeli government, the IDF, and Mossad:

100% Certified Terrorists that Murder Children.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_qyLALPyCk

Jews? Not exactly. Talmudists!

Come on folks. How many of you have known for how long about the owners of the Federal Reserve? Haven't you figured out, by now, that everything you know about the world you live in has been filtered to you by the Rothschild Zionists?

First, Revelations 2:9, 3:9

The fake Jews: http://socioecohistory.wordpress.com/2009/01/24/khazar-empir...

Racist Marxist Israel by Jack Bernstein http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/israel.htm

Harold Wallace Rosenthal's interview before being assassinated: http://www.antichristconspiracy.com/HTML%20Pages/Harold_Wall...

Next, an underground video out of Germany, where it is illegal to question the Holocaust,translated by a Canadian German, as a result of Merkel's annual groveling for Germany's fabricated crimes against Jews: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7nE5fvFXNE&bpctr=1379137129

Many interesting articles, videos and links at www.justice4germans.com

The Holohoax:
http://lovkap.blogspot.in/2010/09/ooops-6-million-jewish-hol...

If you want to know the true source of evil in the world: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Mlw2mlf35Y

A clue to the solution:
http://www.usa-the-republic.com/Lee_Brobst/usa.html#amendment

Jews who want to know the truth about . . .

the world and will not flinch in one of *their own* is implicated--

are my brothers and sisters--

and there are many of them--

as for the holocaust, I believe it is wrong for there to be a law forbidding that the history of it be researched--

but I won't question that terrible things happened to the Jews. There are Jews who believe and have reason to believe that those Jews who opposed the plans of the world elite (who consisted of some pretty radical people who did not have the interests of all Jews at heart)--

were systematically destroyed. I don't doubt it. THAT needs to be researched more thoroughly. There are some (Jews) who have the courage to do it, but they are derided by *their own*--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

Only one problem

IzUnReal is not a Nation at all. Its a bunch of liars theives and murders plundering Palastine. How can anyone think of this as a legitimate Nation.

sovereign

You're not real either...

It's all lies. Everything you have you've stolen from the rest of us.

You didn't build it.

Just like the English took land in America from the natives. Just like Saxons from Germany region, took England. And the Normans in France. They aren't real either.

Ghengis Kahn? Not real.

Rome? Nope.

No one that has ever fought to claim land (or in Israel's case, re-claim the land) is real.

So I guess that means the Arabs, who conquered that land in the Crusades, which has been passed back and forth between European and Arab ownership for nearly two millennia, aren't real either.

So who IsReal? Well, the original natives of that land, are Jews. Rome took it from Judea, in Jesus' time.

Heck, Islam wasn't even invented until after 500 A.D.

"Palestine" is a Roman word, for Philistine. Like the Philistines of the bible. Rome named it that, as an insult to the Jews. There were never any native 'Palestinians'. There is no letter in Arabic for the "P" sound, but there is "Ph" sound.

PEOPLE OPPOSING TYRANNY - Real Grass Roots!
Are you a POT or a PET - Person Embracing Tyranny?

A fair point, but...

...there is one key difference: all the examples you cited are past, while Israel's land-grabbing is ongoing right now. Past crimes cannot be undone, ongoing crimes can be stopped.

"Alas! I believe in the virtue of birds. And it only takes a feather for me to die laughing."

I was being facetious...

It is not land grabbing.

And if you bothered to read my whole comment you would have seen that I talked about it was stolen from the Jews before, and they rightfully took it back.

That doesn't mean I agree with all their government's policies.

PEOPLE OPPOSING TYRANNY - Real Grass Roots!
Are you a POT or a PET - Person Embracing Tyranny?

Very...

...well-said. If folks want to support Israel or other nations, they should do it as private groups and individuals -- like Hemingway in Spain.

Well said.

Well said.

"The United States can pay any debt it has because we can always print money to do that." — Alan Greenspan

More Insider Privilege

How many average civilians get this kind of insider info? Especially among a group of people who claim to have no interest (or representation at risk in Syria)? More dual-national traitor privilege and access

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.546678

Granger go for as many thumbs down as possible.

I put the tard girl on block. Problem solved.

SteveMT's picture

What do you think about conflicts of interest w/dual nationals?

They are like embedded resident foreign lobbyists that we pay for!

This list is almost 5 years old. Who knows who is on it now? The question is where do allegiances lie when these dual citizens are in positions of great power? I'm talking about the enemy from within.

From January, 2009: American / Isreali Dual Citizens in the American Government

Attorney General - Michael Mukasey
Head of Homeland Security - Michael Chertoff
Chairman Pentagon’s Defense Policy Board - Richard Perle
Deputy Defense Secretary (Former) - Paul Wolfowitz
Under Secretary of Defense - Douglas Feith
National Security Council Advisor - Elliott Abrams
Vice President Dick Cheney’s Chief of Staff (Former) - “Scooter” Libby
White House Deputy Chief of Staff - Joshua Bolten
Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs - Marc Grossman
Director of Policy Planning at the State Department - Richard Haass
U.S.
Trade Representative (Cabinet-level Position) - Robert Zoellick
Pentagon’s Defense Policy Board - James Schlesinger
UN Representative (Former) - John Bolton
Under Secretary for Arms Control - David Wurmser
Pentagon’s Defense Policy Board - Eliot Cohen
Senior Advisor to the President - Steve Goldsmith
Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary - Christopher Gersten
Assistant Secretary of State - Lincoln Bloomfield
Deputy Assistant to the President - Jay Lefkowitz
White House Political Director - Ken Melman
National Security Study Group - Edward Luttwak
Pentagon’s Defense Policy Board - Kenneth Adelman
Defense Intelligence Agency Analyst (Former) - Lawrence (Larry) Franklin
National Security Council Advisor - Robert Satloff
President Export-Import Bank U.S. - Mel Sembler
Deputy Assistant Secretary, Administration for Children and Families - Christopher Gersten
Assistant Secretary of Housing and Urban Development for Public Affairs - Mark Weinberger
White House Speechwriter - David Frum
White House Spokesman (Former) - Ari Fleischer
Pentagon’s Defense Policy Board - Henry Kissinger
Deputy Secretary of Commerce - Samuel Bodman
Under Secretary of State for Management - Bonnie Cohen
Director of Foreign Service Institute - Ruth Davis
http://www.dailypaul.com/78153/re-list-of-dual-citizenship-o...

Wanted to add.....

Wanted to add a request you post this on it's own. Too important to be hidden inside another post.
Thanks SteveMT

Deekey

SteveMT's picture

Appreciated, DEEKEY

Like I referenced at the bottom, this story was posted on the DP in 2009. Just compiling a list like this now, one could be labelled as antisemitic. If there exists a current list of dual nationals in this government, then I would want to see this list also.

We are fortunate to have some pretty smart people as DP members. When I do a search, I usually see a previous DP post as one of the top search results. Our members have no intellectual rivals, IMO.

All Dual Nationals in high office

Enjoy all your posts. Always timely and well written.
Labeled Antisemitic? You're probably right, unfortunately. There should be no allegiance to any other country but the US when in a position of that much power!
Strange the dual citizenship with Israel was prevalent in the list, too much so, but not the reason for my feelings. I grew up in a Jewish neighborhood, dated, best friends were Jewish. None were Zionists nor was the German man I married a Nazi. Everyone is a smidge too worried about being politically correct and not concerned enough about the future of our country! Another great poster below," Little Wing" covered the allegiance problem with dual citizenship far better than I could. [see Re: Dual Citizenship]
Is there dual citizenship with others not from Israel in HIGH government positions? That would be interesting to know too! How would you go about getting that information? Times like this, wish I had a provider that didn't take half an hour to load one page with limited bandwidth use.
We need a current list.

Deekey

SteveMT's picture

"Is there dual citizenship with others not from Israel..."

Start with Obama, supposedly born in Hawaii, was born a dual national, British/American.
Ted Cruz was born in Canada and born a dual national, Cuban American
Marco Rubio has Cuban parents who became citizens prior to his birth.

Supposedly, none should be eligible to be president.

"Natural born" means born from parents who they themselves were born in this country. Both of them. The Founders only grandfathered themselves in because none were natural born; NO ONE ELSE.

US Constitution, Article II, Section 1 Clause 5

No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President

List a must see for all !

Good post/question SteveMT.

Admit surprise so many in positions of power. Actually, shock. Interesting the worst of offending heads of alphabet soup clubs destroying our rights and liberty:. Michael Chertoff! The one responsible for naked scanners that are never checked for safety and mandatory groping of people and their small children! Getting even more rich owning the friggin scanners. Several conflicts of interest!
Aren't all of those names in step with the NWO too?
This isn't right. I'm floored.
My opinion? Most certainly would require allegiance to our country only to hold a position of such power!
This list should be posted on every site!!

Deekey

This is how I see that

Where are you?

Now that I'm in the GOP, I see how few Americans actually show up.

What is it, 50% registered to vote, and most of them don't vote.. most Americans have very little knowledge about their own government...

So, let's take my committee as an example.. I have a district with four seats available (the area is well known for marijuana growers who had no problem dishing out bucks for Ron Paul, think any will get involved? no way. Si there's four empty seats and no one stepping up to represent that district.

Let's say someone showed up with a dual citizenship.. they petition, get on the ballot, no one runs against them, they win, they have the seat.

This is what is happening all over America in BOTH major parties because Americans don't step up and do the job themselves.. then they blame what's wrong on the people who do step up.

What I also find interesting about that list, is how few simular lists like that there are.. how about Canadian- Americans.. or Mexican-Americans.. or African Americans, or Austrailian Americans, or Arab Americans in politics.. they are there, they exist, but for some reason, they never seem to be counted as much as the Israeli.

egapele's picture

"Like Ron Paul, Nader is NOT wanting to be your dictator"

Those are your words.

Nader...an outspoken critic of Israeli foreign policy.

Your words, in a post here on the Daily Paul wearing your Nader cheerleader hat in November 2008:

http://www.dailypaul.com/71466/nader-platform-on-domestic-is...

Yes

I worked with Nader on three ampaigns and voted for him 5 times, not because I agreed with everything he stood for, but because I absolutely believed the election process was corrupted, the dupololy was the problem and going Indy was the solution..

Nader is what took me away from the LP.

I have admitted, I marched with ANSWER, attended many anti-Israel functions in the past.. I understand what most folks here are saying, and I have saod, BEEN THERE DONE THAT. No one is telling me anything I didn't know.. so what changed? I admitted I changed..

It was not the GOP.. it was my taking the time to study Israel.. not just what those who I had heard from.. Ron Paul said , "Israel is our friend", and I had to figure out for myself, how is that possible?

I acheived that. What I need to do now, it take this information I have been collecting and deliver it.. which is not easy. This morning I was reminded of when I was in grade school and we needed to do a report on another country, and I picked China.. only to find out there wasn't a book on China. I picked China because it was so big on the globe, and my Mom's best friend was Chinese..

Now, I feel the same way about Jordan.. it's not part of the Palestinian/Israel conversation, but it should be IMO.

I found this article this morning doing my reasearch and it says many things I would say, if I was any kind of decent writer and had the ability http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/04/monarch-...

LittleWing's picture

Re: Dual Citizenship

Dual Citizenship -- Loyal to Whom?
http://www.viewzone.com/dualcitizen.html
"The word "allegiance" means that we promise loyalty. It also carries with it the expectation that this loyalty will be exclusive and unrestrained. In the case of a declared war or real threat or conflict, for example, our allegiance to America should preclude any other interest, be it another country or political ideology."

"Since citizenship carries with it a responsibility to be exclusively loyal to one country, the whole concept of dual citizenship and nationality raises questions about which of the dual citizenships have priority. This is extremely important when the two countries have opposing interests. It can be a deadly problem when a dual citizen is in a high position within our American government."

" Recently, in their much lauded paper, The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy, Harvard professor, Stephen Walt, and University of Chicago professor, John Mearsheimer, focused attention on the strong Israeli lobby which has a powerful influence over American foreign policies (see BBC article). They detail the influence that this lobby has exerted, forming a series of international policies which can be viewed as in direct opposition to the interests and security of the American people. These acts and policies are more often than not carried out by US government appointees who hold powerful positions and who are dual American-Israeli citizens. Since the policies they support are often exclusively beneficial to Israel, often to the detriment of America, it has been argued that their loyalties are misdirected."

(continued) http://www.viewzone.com/dualcitizen.html

If Wars Can Be Started by Lies, They Can Be Stopped By Truth.

So should...

...dual citizens voluntarily renounce their foreign citizenships for *any* position, dog-catcher on up? Or where should that line be drawn?