46 votes

Update 9/16: TX State Troopers Now Lying After Unlawful Arrest for Open Carrying Black Powder Pistol (Video)

UPDATED 9/16!

It's being reported that, "The police officer who arrested Gary is now claiming that Gary pointed a weapon at him. This is a lie, the weapon was holstered and we have video and multiple witnesses to call out the cop's lie. The cop is lying to protect himself so he doesn't get in trouble."

"They are also now claiming that Gary's release for jail without charges was 'an accident.' This started after Gary called them to try to get his black powder pistol back."

https://www.facebook.com/groups/DentonCountyRepublicans/perm...

BREAKING NEWS!

The story is just developing. Stay tuned. State officials are getting involved to try to force release. The officer was confronted with the law. Watch him squirm!

Texas law specifically exempts black powder replicas from the definition of a handgun or firearm, which was indeed what the person who was arrested was open carrying...a black powder replica pistol.

UPDATE: 5:40pm CST from a friend on the scene: Will be streaming Gary Hays open carrying his black powder revolver at the state capitol in Austin in about 15 minutes (5:45ish).

Link to live feed of another open carry attempt in protest! http://www.ustream.tv/search?q=webnotions

Original video below!


http://youtu.be/S8UXEFhyBz4

UPDATE: InfoWars coverage


http://youtu.be/wU_EY-tsYOI

New Video (language warning):


http://youtu.be/uc7DMVXKHG8

UPDATE:

Update via Rachel Malone. Props to Patterson for jumping into this. Abbott so far appears to be dodging and acting like he can't do anything. Share and call!

=================
Update on the situation at the Capitol this morning:

I just spoke with Nestor Rizo. He, Gabe Cabrera, and Terry Holcomb Sr., admins here at TOC, went to the Capitol today to peacefully exercise their 2nd amendment rights. Other folks from Open Carry Texas were also there.

While they were still walking up the sidewalk, before they even reached the Capitol grounds, Terry was arrested by DPS for openly carrying a black powder pistol (which is not counted as a firearm under Texas law and therefore not subject to handgun carry restrictions). The pistol was secured in a holster.

Scott Liberty was also arrested for carrying a black powder pistol.

I understand that they were both arrested under Illegal Carry of a Firearm and Disorderly Conduct - although clearly, they were not in violation on either of those counts.

Jerry Patterson was notified of the situation, and he called the Capitol to tell them to release Terry and Scott immediately. They refused, so Patterson is proceeding to put pressure on Attorney General Gregg Abbott to step in and help.

Nestor and Gabe are now on their way back home. I'm sure they'll be posting more firsthand accounts and videos.

You can contact Abbott at 512-463-2100 to urge him to take action against this infringement of the 2nd Amendment. Remember, he does have power through his current office to help. If he does not use that ability now, how should we expect him to help protect 2nd amendment rights when and if he becomes governor?

https://www.facebook.com/jerblosser/posts/10200575970228364

UPDATE:

Here's Texas Law 46.01 (3)(A) & (B)

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/PE/htm/PE.46.htm

(3) "Firearm" means any device designed, made, or adapted to expel a projectile through a barrel by using the energy generated by an explosion or burning substance or any device readily convertible to that use. Firearm does not include a firearm that may have, as an integral part, a folding knife blade or other characteristics of weapons made illegal by this chapter and that is:

(A) an antique or curio firearm manufactured before 1899; or

(B) a replica of an antique or curio firearm manufactured before 1899, but only if the replica does not use rim fire or center fire ammunition.

UPDATE: Pic from the LIVE re-protest of the arrest earlier today. They decided to do it again!

Here's the video from last week of the same group actually getting into the building!


http://youtu.be/8ug_G119af0

UPDATE:

Two of the men arrested first are now out on $0 and $20 bail. Gary Hays, the disabled vet in the picture above, has indicated that he is not willing to post bail. Can't blame him - no crime was committed.

UPDATE: Commentary from a friend who knows about this kind of stuff...

Several people have commented that "manner calculated to cause alarm" isn't defined, or that LEOs are choosing a definition that suits them, and we need case law. However, something Gary Hays said last night when his arrest started got me thinking and doing some research today, and I think there's a fundamental piece we've been missing here.

The cop told Gary that his pistol "was alarming" him (which is obviously different from "calculated to cause alarm", but nevermind that for now). Gary immediately replied that the cop's visible sidearm, mace, nightstick, etc. were alarming him. Something we've all thought and said before, but it got me thinking about what the code says...

As we all know, Penal Code Chapter 46 is the one dealing with weapons. 46.02 lists places a person can't carry a handgun. 46.03 lists places a person can't carry a firearm or other prohibited weapon.

The thing is, those sections apply to ALL people, including license holders AND LEOs. So why can they each carry? Because there are exceptions later in that Chapter: Sec. 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY. 46.15(a) says both 46.02 and 46.03 do not apply to various types of peace officers, while in the commission of their duty or otherwise (different types of LEOs get different exceptions). 46.15(b)(6) carves out the exception to carry a concealed handgun if you're a CHL holder.

Obviously our guys are getting arrested and charged not under Chapter 46, but under Chapter 42, Disorderly Conduct. Specifically, 42.01 "(a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly: (8) displays a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm;".

There is no NONAPPLICABILITY exception for LEOs I can find for 42.01, or any of Chapter 42. That should mean that if simply carrying a weapon openly counts as "manner calculated to cause alarm" for the purposes of 42.01, then every LEO that's openly carrying is also in violation. Obviously selective enforcement is no new thing, but that should make it clear in any court proceeding that using brandishing as the standard is the only reasonable way to read the law.

This shouldn't be that surprising if we consider what "disorderly conduct" is supposed to be about. There's no particular reason to think an LEO would be exempt from laws against disruptive noise, showing their genitals, etc. that the rest of Chapter 42 deals with.

___



Trending on the Web

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

If you live in

Texas, you need to contact your State Rep. for your district, and the Senator to question why they are not coming out in defense of this act of Tyranny! These where State Troopers, not local PD, so they can use their power to make sure this doesn't happen again. Screw worrying about the Feds, 99.5% of them are bought off in some sort of manner, it's time to start pushing our state officials. If you have a liberal Democrat in you district, let them know, that we can take action of recall just like they are doing in Colorado it they refuse to uphold the US Constitution, Texas Constitution, and State Penal Codes that protect our Rights!

UPDATE 9/16

UPDATED 9/16

It's being reported that, "The police officer who arrested Gary is now claiming that Gary pointed a weapon at him. This is a lie, the weapon was holstered and we have video and multiple witnesses to call out the cop's lie. The cop is lying to protect himself so he doesn't get in trouble."

"They are also now claiming that Gary's release for jail without charges was 'an accident.' This started after Gary called them to try to get his black powder pistol back."

https://www.facebook.com/groups/DentonCountyRepublicans/perm...

I'm a serial entrepreneur and liberty activist from Texas!

www.RevolutionCarBadges.com
www.NonNetwork.com

Thanks Rob!

'THEY' don't get it, 'THEY' have become nothing but wards of a state they pays them with printed money.

Though America has been hugely taken over by 100 years of communist/corruption/illegal banking.

We are the only country they have had to FAKE IT that we were free.

You guys are at the tip of the spear to expose the illusion.

Thank you brother. Lies and ignorance is all they have on their side.

Base

The Blaze picked up the story!

They used my friend's pic with no credit! Since we know they're reading right now, it would have been nice of you guys to give a shout out to InfoWars or the DP. After all, they showed up, so I'm not quite sure how your story is a Blaze Original.

If you want to build more credibility with the liberty movement, why not use the original sources. Why be ashamed of where you got in the information?

We sincerely thank you for the great coverage, but you should do the liberty movement a favor and inform your audience of great communities like the DP! Don't be scared!

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/09/14/three-texans-incl...

I'm a serial entrepreneur and liberty activist from Texas!

www.RevolutionCarBadges.com
www.NonNetwork.com

May I share a story related to this?

I was the terminal maintenance Manager for a very large trucking company. We had terminals across the Country and I ran the one in Az.

My boss was in charge of the whole western half of the continental U.S. (Although we released a Qualcomm on a balloon one time and it almost made it to Hawaii, So he claimed that too) It drove the dispatchers following it by satellite crazy, Lol

He was second in chain of command in this company. Turns out he was a retired NY police detective and was a gun nut. So being in Az and loving guns he let us bring them to work and put them away in a responsible manner, Techs, Drivers and All.

At this time Az had not yet passed the Right to Conceal carry yet so open carry was still cool. So I had one tech that insisted that he was allowed to carry a Snub nosed 38 in the small of his back in his pants and belt with no holster. My boss told me it was cool.

I explained it was an accident waiting to happen, but with no success because they were good drinking buddies. So one day He got a call on the intercom to get his ass out and chase me down because I was needed right away.

So he took off running across the shop to the end bay door and his 38 fell out of the back of his pants. Yep, he had just shot himself in the ass with it when it hit the floor, It was STUPID.

Ending result? Corporate came around and shut us all down and no longer were firearms allow on the property. Now keep in mind this was a private entity, and not a Government entity but the results are always the same when things like this happen.

For every action there WILL be an opposite and equal reaction. Simple Physics and common sense. HANDLE FIREARMS WITH RESPONSIBLY, OR WE WILL ALL PAY FOR YOUR MISTAKE.

If I disappear from a discussion please forgive me. My 24-7 business requires me to split mid-sentence to serve them. I am not ducking out, I will be back later to catch up.

UPDATE: Commentary from a friend who knows about this stuff...

Several people have commented that "manner calculated to cause alarm" isn't defined, or that LEOs are choosing a definition that suits them, and we need case law. However, something Gary Hays said last night when his arrest started got me thinking and doing some research today, and I think there's a fundamental piece we've been missing here.

The cop told Gary that his pistol "was alarming" him (which is obviously different from "calculated to cause alarm", but nevermind that for now). Gary immediately replied that the cop's visible sidearm, mace, nightstick, etc. were alarming him. Something we've all thought and said before, but it got me thinking about what the code says...

As we all know, Penal Code Chapter 46 is the one dealing with weapons. 46.02 lists places a person can't carry a handgun. 46.03 lists places a person can't carry a firearm or other prohibited weapon.

The thing is, those sections apply to ALL people, including license holders AND LEOs. So why can they each carry? Because there are exceptions later in that Chapter: Sec. 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY. 46.15(a) says both 46.02 and 46.03 do not apply to various types of peace officers, while in the commission of their duty or otherwise (different types of LEOs get different exceptions). 46.15(b)(6) carves out the exception to carry a concealed handgun if you're a CHL holder.

Obviously our guys are getting arrested and charged not under Chapter 46, but under Chapter 42, Disorderly Conduct. Specifically, 42.01 "(a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly: (8) displays a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm;".

There is no NONAPPLICABILITY exception for LEOs I can find for 42.01, or any of Chapter 42. That should mean that if simply carrying a weapon openly counts as "manner calculated to cause alarm" for the purposes of 42.01, then every LEO that's openly carrying is also in violation. Obviously selective enforcement is no new thing, but that should make it clear in any court proceeding that using brandishing as the standard is the only reasonable way to read the law.

This shouldn't be that surprising if we consider what "disorderly conduct" is supposed to be about. There's no particular reason to think an LEO would be exempt from laws against disruptive noise, showing their genitals, etc. that the rest of Chapter 42 deals with.

I'm a serial entrepreneur and liberty activist from Texas!

www.RevolutionCarBadges.com
www.NonNetwork.com

Thank you

This was my argument, There are always laws that exempt or extend the basic code. Been there done that several times in court over various issues. One must read EVERYTHING related to the basic code or you will end up in trouble. Let's hope they don't extend the code even more because of this, For your sake man, I'm not in Texas.

Are we good now my friend?

If I disappear from a discussion please forgive me. My 24-7 business requires me to split mid-sentence to serve them. I am not ducking out, I will be back later to catch up.

I'm not so sure we were ever not good!

This is a place to freely exchange and engage in discussions. The only thing I TRY to avoid (though sometimes it's extremely hard, and I do fail at it sometimes!) is ad hominem attacks or even simply calling people names. I also really hate strawman arguments. Stay away from those, and we're all good!

I'm a serial entrepreneur and liberty activist from Texas!

www.RevolutionCarBadges.com
www.NonNetwork.com

Texas hates guns

There's a lot of blather and hullabaloo about Texas being friendly to gun owners. It ain't. There is a list of prohibited carry sites as long as your arm.

IT IS ILLEGAL TO OPEN CARRY IN TEXAS!!

Texas might have a lot going for it in other areas but firearms ownership isn't one of them.

Come to Michigan where open carry is legal everywhere except Detroit casinos. I, and many of my friends, open carry every day wherever we want to, even bars. The cops leave us alone. Michigan does have gun free zones but a concealed permit allows open carry in those places unless it is a Detroit casino or is posted as gun free private property, or if not posted, the owner may ask you to leave. So far I haven't been asked to leave anywhere.

Michigan is very friendly to gun owners.

It only takes one to KEEP AMERICANS FREE. Know your duties & rights as a juror. Stop the unconstitutional conviction of innocents in federal custody. The Fully Informed Jury CALL 1-800-TEL-JURY www.fija.org IMMEDIATELY if not sooner. It's that important.

meekandmild's picture

Title 42USC §1983 lawsuit

on officers involved and departments

It is perfectly legal to

It is perfectly legal to conceal carry in the Texas State Capital building, that's what the CHL lane is for through security. Its estimate that 1/3 to 1/2 of the State Reps and Senators carry each and every day, even through legislative sessions. Any citizen with a permit is allowed to conceal carry within the building, or outside the building. Permits in Texas are handed out like candy on halloween.

Therefore, there is no reason for these people to be pushing what they're pushing, other than to get attention, one-hit-wonders on youtube. "Hey look Bubba, I'm on Infowars, well gollllly gee wiz. Let's call Ma and Pa".

----------------------------------------------------------
"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" B.Bunny "Scwewy Wabbit!"E. Fudd
People's Awareness Coalition: Deprogramming Sequence

mountaincat's picture

Permit

Now what does the Constitution call that...Oh yeah, infringement.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but

from reading the post, I was under the impression that black powder firearms were exempt from the law. Having to get a permit to open carry a black powder pistol would be like having to get a permit to carry an ice cream cone, IMO. Do you have a state issued permit to open carry an ice cream cone?

Its a bit ridiculous to

Its a bit ridiculous to suggest that an ice cream cone is a lethal weapon.

----------------------------------------------------------
"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" B.Bunny "Scwewy Wabbit!"E. Fudd
People's Awareness Coalition: Deprogramming Sequence

Sure it is

You could jam it down someone's throat and choke them to death, In which case, Laws would be passed against carrying ice-cream cones. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, Lol. I hope you have been well my friend.

If I disappear from a discussion please forgive me. My 24-7 business requires me to split mid-sentence to serve them. I am not ducking out, I will be back later to catch up.

Do you support...

Do you support permits for baseball bats and knives too? How about pipe at Home Depot?

I'm a serial entrepreneur and liberty activist from Texas!

www.RevolutionCarBadges.com
www.NonNetwork.com

You clearly don't know these people then TxRedneck...

The people involved with this are everyday activists who do things like this on a regular basis. Many of them also work the complete legislative session lobbying reps, speaking for and against bills, and actually were paramount in getting some key bills through the Texas House. They also helped get an RP State Rep elected while currently working on a handful of others, with great potential.

They don't watch InfoWars like you insinuate, as if that's a bad thing anyway.

What you're actually advocating is having to ask permission to defend yourself. Please show some respect. Don't make me start listing specific credentials of the people filming this video. I'll do it if I have to, and I'll be here all night.

I'm a serial entrepreneur and liberty activist from Texas!

www.RevolutionCarBadges.com
www.NonNetwork.com

LOL!!! Let me say it again.

LOL!!! Let me say it again. Estimate 1/3 to 1/2 State Reps and Senators conceal carry IN THE GALLERY everyday. If anyone was paramount to getting key weapons bills passed in Texas it was the Representatives and Senators THEMSELVES.

If you carry a gun in the State Capital building YOU GET TO BYPASS THE METAL DETECTOR. Its easier to get in WITH A GUN than it is without one. They're practically begging people to bring a gun in, they just don't want you waving it around, openly advertising, "I've got a gun". A fool entering the building with his pistol in his lap, in an electric wheelchair, running up the hall and then back, spinning it in circles, bumping it into the wall like some kid riding an amusement park ride...is trying to get attention.

I didn't say they watched infowars, I said they were on infowars.

No need to list credentials. The NRA has credentials, but credentials do not necessarily mean you actually promote what you claim. I could give a long list of organizations and people who do not promote what they claim, yet have impressive credentials, but I'd be here all night.

----------------------------------------------------------
"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" B.Bunny "Scwewy Wabbit!"E. Fudd
People's Awareness Coalition: Deprogramming Sequence

Nice sleight of hand...

"If anyone was paramount to getting key weapons bills passed in Texas it was the Representatives and Senators THEMSELVES."

I didn't say "weapons bills." I said bills, bills. And it sounds like you understand how a bill becomes a law. You see there this thing called committee meetings and testimony to see if a bill will even get the chance to be voted on. Only a handful of people are on the committees. People like one of guys filming were there every day in the committees, testifying, lobbying the committees, getting other reps to sponsor bills, etc. Clearly you know this happens. Why are you pretending it doesn't?

And by the way, I never even addressed the first part of your initial comment, because I didn't really disagree with it. My comment above was regarding the second part of your comment. Are you going to address my comment or just continue to bring up irrelevant material?

I'm a serial entrepreneur and liberty activist from Texas!

www.RevolutionCarBadges.com
www.NonNetwork.com

I'm very much in favor of

I'm very much in favor of people attending committees, which btw, I neither pretended that that does or does not happen.

Let me ask you, in the above post you've made, in the videos of this post, WHAT COMMITTEE ARE THEY ATTENDING THERE???

As far as "permission", as I said Texas hands out permits like candy on halloween. There are people that I do not think should have a right to carry a weapon. Texas does not use the permit as a way to deny people the right to carry, but instead they use it as a way to vet those who SHOULD NOT carry. I support it. Although I would like to see them add people on psychotropic drugs to the unqualified list, during the time they are under the care of a physician, or have an valid prescription at any pharmacy.

----------------------------------------------------------
"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" B.Bunny "Scwewy Wabbit!"E. Fudd
People's Awareness Coalition: Deprogramming Sequence

Well...

...my beef was with your comment, "Therefore, there is no reason for these people to be pushing what they're pushing, other than to get attention, one-hit-wonders on youtube. 'Hey look Bubba, I'm on Infowars, well gollllly gee wiz. Let's call Ma and Pa'."

To me, "Therefore, there is no reason for these people to be pushing what they're pushing, other than to get attention, one-hit-wonders on youtube" is taking a shot at "these people" who I know very well. (I don't know Gary, but I know several people behind the camera personally.) You say the only reason they're doing this is "to get attention." You implied they were looking to be "one-hit-wonders on youtube."

All of these things are stretching reality, so I called you out on it.

I said you pretended committee meetings don't exist based off your comment: "If anyone was paramount to getting key weapons bills passed in Texas it was the Representatives and Senators THEMSELVES."

What if I were to tell you the Reps and Senators many times don't author the bills? They're not the ones who go rally support. Yes, sometimes they do, but most of the time they don't. You know who does help with these things? Chris Howe, one of the guys behind the camera. So, yes indeed Chris, and countless others were paramount in helping defeat and pass key bills. That was to clear up and refute your "one-hit wonder" comment and that all they're looking for is "attention." They're not looking for attention. They're standing up for their rights, and yours, and are willing to go to jail and court to challenge obscure laws. What are you doing to shrink government?

In the post above, they're not in a committee meeting. That's because the legislative session is over, or some of them would be. The only reason I brought up committees was to refute your comments as described above.

Regarding your last paragraph, you're operating under the premise that laws work or that criminals follow laws. You also forget that many retired military are on psychotropic drugs....or do you?

I'm a serial entrepreneur and liberty activist from Texas!

www.RevolutionCarBadges.com
www.NonNetwork.com

No, I don't forget. There

No, I don't forget. There are many policeman and troopers on psychotropic drugs too. I personally think they should be relieved of their weapons in such case. Maybe you read about the policemen in Ft Worth a couple years ago that went on a shootiing spree with his service weapon after a few days of not taking his meds. Sudden withdrawl from the meds is mentally catastrophic. And proper usage is noted in the majority of random killings.

My post had to do with the OP you made. Nothing about committe influence nor who writes the bills. IMO, instigations such as this one is not standing up for rights. Instead more likely to have a right taken away. They note that this definition of firearm was made in the 1890's. Possibly it will be looked into now and the law changed. I happen to have one of these weapons. Generally the only time I would even think to open carry such a weapon would be in a theatrical sense, such as a muzzle loader rally. If I were concerned about my safety I'd have a semi auto weapon, and no one would notice that I had it.

Laws do work. Certainly the permits do not keep criminals from concealed carry, but they do provide for the prosecution of such when discovered. This is quite the opposite of the argument that you are linking it to, that by BANNING ALL weapons only criminal will be armed. The Texas conceal permit, as I've stated 3 times now, hands out permits like candy on halloween. Virtually everyone that applies is approved, except prior criminals or those who do not pay court ordered child support. It in no way stops criminals from concealed carry, and I never suggested it did, nor am I operating under the premise that it does. It does give the law a legal reason to confiscate the weapon and prosecute criminals that shouldn't have a weapon to begin with, and possibly before they use that weapon for offense instead of defense. What you seem to suggest is that there should be no permit required for anyone, and thereby the previously convicted violent criminal would ALSO be allowed to carry, without repercussion.

----------------------------------------------------------
"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" B.Bunny "Scwewy Wabbit!"E. Fudd
People's Awareness Coalition: Deprogramming Sequence

Thanks for the comment, defintely your most rational IMO.

However, "What you seem to suggest is that there should be no permit required for anyone, and thereby the previously convicted violent criminal would ALSO be allowed to carry, without repercussion."

I disagree that I need to be allowed/approved/permitted to carry a weapon in a non-threatening manner by anyone.

I also disagree that someone who commits a felony and serves his time should lose his right to self defense (carry a weapon).

Lastly, in my opinion, convicted felons don't care about asking permission to carry weapons, so the system you advocate only applies law abiding citizens.

I think the main purpose permits serve is to keep a database of gun owners.

But I'm sure those databases are secure and would never be used against us. There is just no way our government would ever do something like that.

I'm a serial entrepreneur and liberty activist from Texas!

www.RevolutionCarBadges.com
www.NonNetwork.com

You need to reread what I

You need to reread what I said about convicted felons. The convicted felon cannot carry LEGALLY, does not mean the felon cannot carry. But it does mean the law can take his weapon is found in possession.

The permit does not create a database of gun owners. Data base of those allowed to conceal carry, yes. You don't have to be a gun owner, nor register your gun, to have a conceal carry permit. Just because one has a permit does not mean they have a gun. They have a permit to carry one.

On the other hand, the Federal gun laws that require background checks, including serial numbers and make/model number, DO create a database of gunowners. I'm very strongly opposed to that, but that law is not of Texas' doing, and Texas has no comparable laws. Texas itself does not know what guns you do or do not own, regardless of whether you do or do not have a permit for conceal carry.

You disagree that a convicted felon should not lose his right to self defense. I think that a felon should lose his right to commit another offense. Further, I think that people who vote for LAW MAKERS should lose the right to self defense.

----------------------------------------------------------
"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" B.Bunny "Scwewy Wabbit!"E. Fudd
People's Awareness Coalition: Deprogramming Sequence

Then why is that 'convicted felon' back on the streets?

If a person committed a felonious crime and have served their time, then they have paid for their crime. If the commit another crime they will go back to the pen, just like you would. They have paid for what they did, but you want to make them suffer for the rest of their lives, and they may have been a stupid teenager when they committed the first crime. I thought people were sent to the pen for "re-rehabilitation". If it ain't working then they shouldn't have been released. If they were released they are again a citizen and not a criminal.

They have served their TIME,

They have served their TIME, but part of the punishment for their crime is that they will NEVER be able to legally possess a weapon. This is a PART of the punishment for their crime. Just because they never again commit a crime does not mean they are no longer a criminal. They serve time AND other consequences of their crime, a PART of their payment continues throughout their lives. Well over 60% of criminals released from prisons will be back for additional crimes committed.

People in Texas do not have to show that they are moral citizens to own a gun, but they do have to show that they do not have a history of offense against their fellow citizens. Criminals who serve their time are free to return to society to live their lives in a normal fashion, with a few exceptions of rights that they lost for LIFE. This is the consequence of committing the crime. Its a pretty good deal compared to some countries who start chopping off body parts for committing crimes. It is also a view that is held pretty much throughout the world, once a criminal it is ASSUMED always a criminal, even though SOME do genuinely reform.

----------------------------------------------------------
"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" B.Bunny "Scwewy Wabbit!"E. Fudd
People's Awareness Coalition: Deprogramming Sequence

Define "felon"

It is a felony to possess a sparkler in New Jersey.

Still support a total ban on convicted felons from owning guns?

“Never think of pain or danger or enemies a moment longer than is necessary to fight them.”
www.youtube.com/user/RevolutionATX

Chances are slim that you

Chances are slim that you will get a permit for a weapon in New Jersy, regardless of your enthusiasm or lack there of for sparklers.

States that have very strict laws, in general, are also going to have strict gun laws. But I was under the impression that this thread was about Texas gun law. Conviction for possession of sparklers in New Jersey does not make you a felon in Texas.

----------------------------------------------------------
"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" B.Bunny "Scwewy Wabbit!"E. Fudd
People's Awareness Coalition: Deprogramming Sequence

You don't have to explain the law...

...you have to explain how it's a good law.

Removing rights from people doesn't seem like the purpose of government. The role of government is to protect rights, not remove them.

I know you'll admit bad laws exist. That's the debate here. Not the actually legality of something, but rather it's a good or bad law.

I'm a serial entrepreneur and liberty activist from Texas!

www.RevolutionCarBadges.com
www.NonNetwork.com

Absolutely. When someone

Absolutely. When someone violates one of your rights, the government administers justice by taking away some rights of the offender.

Certainly IMO, if you commits a violent felony then they have proven themselves LIKELY to be unworthy of gun ownership for life. Some people do reform, but there is no real test for who is or is not worth of ownership, other than their past actions. Words do not suffice.

People who have committed have not given reason to be doubted should be allowed, and are in Texas, to possess a weapon/weapons. I think its pretty reasonable to no give permission to felons to arm themselves, I think its a good law. There is no preventing criminals from owning guns, but I think that taking away the right for them to own them HELPS, though does not completely fulfill, government protecting the rights of their people.

I think this a hell of a lot better solution than the one they have in places like Chicago, New York, New Jersey, ect. ect.

----------------------------------------------------------
"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" B.Bunny "Scwewy Wabbit!"E. Fudd
People's Awareness Coalition: Deprogramming Sequence