11 votes

Like a total idiot savant, I can't stop listening to this Catherine Austin Fitts interview

particularly starting around 23:00 minutes to the end.

http://youtu.be/0EiMUPdtFXI
And now, back to my regularly unprogrammed listening: The Louisiana Sink Hole...my place of birth, where I wanted to retire to...Just NW of Bayou Corne (Before I discovered the sink hole, that is, in Louisiana. Not the ISON comet - tho it too - is informational.)

Who says..."it's not all relative"? I do.
http://www.youtube.com/user/BPEarthWatch/videos

Check it out. The New Madrid Fault...




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So all we have to do is send

So all we have to do is send out the worlds best assassins to put bullets in the heads of a couple dozen people or so on the planet.

This will ensure our owners plans don't come to fruition and the majority get to live out their lives better without them.

Did I get that right?

And watching markets today.

I wonder if the Illusion is coming to an end here?

Granger left several days ago, and Goldspan seems to have made his last stand predicting the $price of gold.

Perhaps my Love of the Truth makes me an Idiot as well.

GOD ALMIGHTY…. this lady gave me a headache!

Who could keep up with the scatterbrained thoughts……Man y’all are really starting to scare me. This is what passes for intelligence…….Aristotle would be insulted by the lack of logic, and the host is mentioning her in the same breath as Jim Rogers and Marc Faber. As a fan of Rogers and Faber I am insulted, wonder what they think?

Perhaps it is God Almighty that is giving you the headache?

I haven't found Jim Rogers, Marc Faber, Catherine Austin Fitts, Dr. Ron Paul, nor for that matter Karen Hudes speaking anything but their respect for the truth.

Take another Midol Goldspan and watch this.


http://youtu.be/58ayjFKRQ2A

Debbie's picture

That was a most interesting interview!

Thank you for posting it base1 :)) Now I better understand what she thinks we should actually DO, probably thanks to Greg Hunter's persistent line of questioning.

Debbie

That made me laugh until i opened it to see her face

c'mon man give me a break....The decent people on here agreeded not to post her because of her mental health issues…..stop using her for your own gain……it’s sad.

And if you think this Fitts lady is saying the same things as Rogers and Faber …you need checked out too!

Honestly how to do you follow along……there no cohesive thought process…..it’s mostly random statements……she looks like she is reading bullet points and never really answers his questions.

C'mon man!

Thanks for the reply

I'll bet you don't personally know a SOUL here on DP.

Your world is crashing. Deal with it and join the respect for the Truth that Dr. Paul, and other whistle blowers have for 30+ years.

Stop being an idiot. That is just personal advice.

You have a right to be whatever you want.

I respect that, and welcome your comments.

I even entertain the thought that your absurdity is done for a good purpose.

I NEVER try to convince ANYONE they are WRONG, I can only offer why I I'm CONVINCED I'm convinced I'm right.

You sir, seem to be on DP for an entirely different reason.

And it is failing. Not because of your efforts, you were a failure before you posted. But your account is old, and whoever posted first didn't understand the foundation of principle.

You sir, have been a nothing in that effort for a LONG TIME.

I would NEVER Block you, your efforts are too revealing.

that hate is eating you alive

i posted on your PR thread......

I have no hate Goldspan,

You are the one being eaten alive, because you don't respect the truth and have nothing to stand for. I would NEVER even suggest something to another human being that you said. "That Hate is eating you alive"

You aren't even a real person, and those behind your don't get it either.

You aren't standing up for Anything, others are.

UN

GLUED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Michael Nystrom's picture

Wow!

Hey did you guys get this worked out?

Or is this going to develop into one of those epic wars.

It used to be oruval vs. rhino

rhino is aggravating, which is wrapped up with why he's entertaining...

Anyway, it was a lot of drama.

If two people can't agree on here, and chase each other all over the site arguing -- I'm not saying that is what is happening here - I'm just saying. And I don't know if this is an ongoing thing, or a new thing -- then it just makes it unpleasant for the others around here, simply as an externality. And then it can start a brawl, and people choose sides.

I wish people could just check their egos as the door here.

Don't always assume that the guy behind the screenname is a spy, or a paid troll.

There is no reason beliefs have to correspond to reality. Just because you believe something, doesn't make it true. And it doesn't make it untrue, either. Beliefs can be completely disconnected from reality. Just look at Washington DC.

All art is only done by the individual. The individual is all you ever have, and all schools only serve to classify their members as failures. E.H.

Josf, Robert,

I really want you to know how much I appreciate your comments and dialog. It's really helping me to move off square one! Please keep it going!

"If you want something you've never had before, you have to do something you've never done before." Debra Medina

JohnPhillipSousa

Your reply here is placed in an order that is confusing as to which discussion is the point of concern.

I can guess that the reference has to to with my discussion with David Robertson. That discussion ended where I have now a place to go to investigate an extensive report concerning a very unusual viewpoint. Perhaps the word "unusual" can be taken as a measure of discredit, but that is not my intention.

My personal experience does not include supernatural experiences concerning forces of evil and good in battle on a spiritual level. I cannot comment on such things, therefore, from any position of authority based upon experience.

I can read the information, which is very interesting, but I am not, as yet, finding much use in it. The future me may look back on the present me and wonder "what was I thinking" at this time, actually that is probably close to a certainty.

Joe

Catherine Austin Fitts of

Catherine Austin Fitts of Solari.com says, "I think bail-ins are coming . . . the big question is not will we be able to get out insured deposits. I think the big question is how violent will things get?" Fitts biggest worry is not financial collapse. She says, "I don't think the people who run the U.S. military or run the United States government are going to say we're happy to collapse rather than go to war. They are going to go to war. They're going to shake somebody down." Fitts goes on to add, "I think gold is the greatest form of insurance you can have during this transition period." Join Greg Hunter as he goes One-on-One with money manager Catherine Austin Fitts.

Real Deal Right Here
“Give a man a gun, he can rob a bank. Give a man a central bank, and he can rob a country and the world.”
www.dailypaul.com/donate

Look

World War One and Two were not coincidentally happening while the POWER to commit Legal Money Fraud (World Wide) shifted from England (Bank of England) to American (The Federal Reserve) and England was at the end of their TURN as the World Military Empire.

World War III is on schedule to sacrifice the U.S. Military Power and The Dollar Hegemony in the same was as the Empire of England was ended so as to move World Reserve Currency Power to America.

Ron Paul tried to explain the significance of The Business Cycle. I call it The Business Psycho.

Who has the power to control that machine?

If that machine is based in England, and many people realize that the machine is being operated out of England, then victims of the machine then know the location of the machine used by the operators of the machine, and defense against the injury from those people operating that machine can be effectively focused upon that location.

That is one reason why the machine is moved from Empire to Empire, each in TURN, so as to preserve, secure, and maintain the machine as the machine is used to create BOOM and BUST on a schedule.

War is merely the highest amplitude ACTION within The Business Cycle produced by the machine that is used by the BOSS (or bosses) that actually operate that machine.

Where is the machine now?

Where was the machine before it was where the machine is now?

Where will the machine be after World War III?

Before anyone interested in answering these questions attempts to answer these questions, if you have not already done so, look at some of the evidence:

http://www.voltairenet.org/IMG/pdf/Sutton_Wall_Street_and_FD...

That is the build up of the American Military Force to be consumed in World War II.

http://reformed-theology.org/html/books/bolshevik_revolution/

That is the build up of the Bolshevik Military Force to be consumed in World War II.

http://www.reformed-theology.org/html/books/wall_street/

That is the build up of the Nazi Military Force to be consumed in World War II.

The source of FUNDING is based in America, denominated in dollars, and the people commanding that POWER have the World License to Print Legal Money.

The World License to Print Legal Money (backed by the most powerful military force) can buy anything that can be purchased with that money.

Now if you have any doubts at all, look at this:

http://www.scotsman.com/news/world/us-congress-incredulous-a...

That is how those in POWER employ their POWER. They buy things. They write themselves a check, and they buy things.

If they "double the money supply," for example, then you have to get your head wrapped around that concept, if you want to answer these questions accurately.

If they, if that small group of actual people, double the money supply, they are then writing a check for themselves that is equal to the entire amount of money that already exists.

Here is everyone who has any claim on any Federal Reserve Notes that exist on the planet Earth. Everyone, everywhere, on Planet Earth, at this time, own, or control, or have a claim on, Federal Reserve Notes. The entire total sum of Federal Reserve Notes owned by anyone is this much, and then those few people claim to own, have, and control, as much POWER TO PURCHASE as everyone else combined.

What do they buy when they create as much money as everyone else combined?

You have to understand this, and it is not easy, and it is very troublesome, but the facts speak for themselves, and you don't need an authority on political economy to clue you in. They buy WARS.

They finance the building up of all sides in WARS.

They make sure, to the best of their ability, to be on the side that they build up the most, so as to always be in the position to PROFIT before, during, and after those WARS.

Wars are the peaks in WAVE called The Business Cycle.

Those few who pull the strings on The World Reserve Currency POWER (those few who can write themselves as check for as much money as everyone else combined, spend that money, and get away with it), those few people, behind whatever False Front they place as a curtain hiding their true names, and their true motives, and they PROFIT at the PEAKS, and they PROFIT as their investments pan out from peak to peak.

They PROFIT because they know when to buy (at the bottom when prices are lowest) and they PROFIT because they know when to sell (at the top when prices are highest) and they know where to buy, where to sell, because they have that POWER.

What POWER?

Why are the victims rendered so stupid as not to see how easy it is to find the criminals?

Which money is currently in your wallet?

Which money is currently The World Reserve Currency Money?

If you follow that money to that source what is found is a few people who have the POWER to write themselves a check for as much money as everyone else combined.

As soon as that fact becomes known by too many victims those few know how to create a very big BUST. They create that very big BUST like someone might hit the reset button in their computer.

I'm telling you, this has been obvious for many years, and very few people who don't realize it (yet) are willing to speak about it, and those who are in the know won't confess it, but World War III is set to completely destroy America, and when World War III is over the new World Reserve Currency POWER will be moved, and it most likely will be moved to Asia, if, and this is a big if, things proceed according to the schedule that has been in place, and working on that schedule, for thousands of years.

The Money Changers did not start with those few who now control Federal Reserve Notes and The Dollar Hegemony.

If Fitts is right and there if a faction, or a splinter group, of people working to keep Americans in power, then that group is in opposition to the group that is, obviously, working to sacrifice Americans into the POGROM that will be the continuation of World War III.

Think about that some, please. If that splinter group, identified in some way as doing a relatively good thing, such as avoiding World War III, has gained their POWER by fraudulently stealing from old sick people who have invested in retirement and pensions, then the relative good of their actions has to be understood in that accurate manner.

Yes, successful avoidance of World War III, whereby Americans by the millions are sacrificed so as to LOSE that war, and so as to LOSE World Reserve Currency POWER, and so as to no longer be an American Military Power that can DEFEND against the new World Reserve Currency POWER that is then ENFORCED upon Americans, if those people working to avoid that LOSS in that way, do accomplish that goal, then that is relatively a very good thing.

Will those same people then continue employing their criminal CENTRAL BANK FRAUD upon Americans and will those same people no longer have the POWER to enforce that criminal CENTRAL BANK FRAUD upon the rest of the people who populate this planet?

In other words:

1. World War III happens and a World Central Bank Fraud (and extortion) Racket continues for another Century.

2. World War III is avoided and a new age of "Wild Cat Banking" ensues where there are many very competitive banks all around the world whereby people can freely choose which back offers the highest quality and lowest cost products, and therefore that FREE MARKET force works to FORCE the quality of banking products up, and that FREE MARKET force works to FORCE the quality of banking products down?

If you have no idea as to how to know what I a saying to you is true, then consider how FREE MARKET forces FORCE the quality of computers up, or phones, and how that FREE MARKET force FORCES the costs of computers and phones down, as two examples of how FREE MARKET forces FORCE quality up and costs down.

The reason why "inflation" works the way it works is because there is only ONE supplier WORLD WIDE of Legal Money, and that stuff is in your wallet, and it is in your Bank, and it is the only stuff accepted as TAX PAYMENTS by the same CABAL who produce that product.

1. Federal Reserve Notes (all competitors are crushed or incorporated into the CABAL)

2. Computers

3. Phones

The reason why the quality of money goes down, not up, and the reason why the cost of money goes up, not down, is due to the fact that all competition is crushed or incorporated into the CABAL.

Why do you think CHINA owns all that DEBT sold to CHINA by those people running The Dollar Hegemony?

Average Chinese workers don't own average American workers.

Yet

What do you think is the true purpose of World War III?

The supposed leaders claim to OWN their subjects in China and in America.

The supposed leaders are on one side.

The people who produce anything worth stealing are on the other side.

The supposed leaders divide up the victims into factions that are then set against each other.

If you can't see this then one of us is being duped.

Joe

I have been warning People

of this for over 10 years. It is obvious when one looks at the history of America, money, banking and law. America's entire true history of war has been Law abiding Americans versus the European and Anglo-American money changers. Every major military action has been one born of the money changers object evincing a design to reduce us to absolute despotism. Law (Real Law) abiding Americans lost nearly every battle along the way BUT the war has not been lost; yet.

This final hour for America will determine if Americans are law abiding or not hence determining whether divine providence shall shine its grace upon us or not. The only thing we have to do is uphold Real Law. The Money Changers are counting on us to be ignorant of the Law thus enabling them to obtain the grace of divine providence for their own. The really really sad thing is that the money changers are winning big time.

We the People, generally, seemed to be so utterly brainwashed into needing permission for anything and everything that the criminals just put the People where they want them and use unlawful "laws" to get the stupid bureaucrats to terrorize their Sovereign Principals (Men and Women who are We the People) into a despotism ran by the Money Changers who hold the entire records of identity and property of all of us. All of this happening while Real Law recognizes our Sovereign power of consent to all things just (lawful).

We have the POWER to investigate, arrest, subpoena and even outright abolish any Government that seeks to reduce us to absolute despotism. In other words, WE ARE ARUTHORIZED by Law to uphold the Law. We don't need permission, approval or any other form of impedance to upholding the Law. The Law requires us to do so if we wish to live within the protections of Law.

Our Grand Juries is the non-violent forum for We the People to exercise our supreme Power and we sit and do Nothing! How can we expect to live within the protections of law and thus maintain divine providence if we do not exercise our supreme power for peaceful resolution through our Grand Juries? The answer is that we can have no expectations of providence or the protections of Law if we do not uphold the Law.

As we stand right now every single bureaucrat and military personnel claiming to be operating under the capacity of the Constitution is blatantly violating the prohibitions of Article 1 Section 10 tender law. This violation is being committed through activities of fraud, extortion, and Breach of Duty due to ignorance of the law. This means every single Sovereign man and woman that make up We the People of the United States of America have a valid cause of action to bring criminal and/or civil charges against every single one of them. If you are a bureaucrat or military personnel under capacity of the Constitution and this violation is news to you then you have absolute bound duty to demand and your pay to be brought into immediate compliance of Constitutional tender Law. You have the power to address this internally and demand compliance, you have a valid cause of action to bring the issue before a jury and if anyone obstructs your path to a jury you are authorized to arrest that man/woman for obstruction of justice and face the accused and the jury with your accusation. Military are even duty bound to uphold the law against any foreign or domestic enemy. It is the Law itself that gives the Military authorization to use any level of force necessary to bring compliance of the Law within its own ranks and to do what ever is necessary to uphold the Law. Upholding the Law is what will give you protections. Our Military is our Militia if they obey the Law but as we stand right now EVERY member of the military is violating Article 1 Section 10 of the US Constitution by accepting a private banks debt note as tender for a capacity that defines only gold and silver coin as tender. If one does not stay within the lawful bounds of the capacity then they are no longer in that capacity. If you are not in a lawful capacity then you are outside the law. If you are outside the law, you are an outlaw. An outlaw is one whose has given up the protections of Law. If you have given up protections of law then you lose divine providence and grace of divine law and you are essentially doomed.

We the People have a valid cause of action against them anytime they attempt to force us to use that unlawful tender for any payment to them. We have the power to open a Grand Jury criminal investigation against any and all the bureaucrats for their Breach of Duty, Fraud, Extortion and Racketeering right now. We have the same power to bring justice to the criminal bankers. A Grand Jury can issue search warrants, wiretaps, subpoenas, and build an evidential case for a criminal trial. We have total POWER to uphold the Law but we will do nothing to bring Justice! We seem to be generally confused idiots who do not know anything about our own laws and no nothing about how our path to Justice works. We can use the courts to mow the lawn of crime but the idiocy and confusion seems to be so extreme that even so called "lawyers" and "attorneys" seem to think we need a criminal's permission to bring a criminal to justice. This is confusion and idiocy. We are authorized to seek and bring remedy to those who harm and injure us. 100 years of devaluing debt based tender and identity theft is actual injury and grounds for the biggest criminal prosecution in the history of the world.

We could have the same movement we had with Ron Paul's campaign focused on our Grand Juries to investigate and actually bring the criminals proper and swift justice but we do not uphold our laws. It seems we generally think criminals writing words on a page is "law" applicable to us therefore our remedy is through politics. This notion of code policies applicable as law to the people is idiotic and downright dangerous. We already have the common law with disputes amongst us seeking remedy falling under either breach of peace or breach of duty in Common Law with available strict definitions available to us but Real Law applicable to us is NOT millions of pages of code whose scope was only intended to simply be the governing actions for GOVERNMENT within the bounds and prohibitions of the Constitution governing document. Codes were never meant to apply to We the People because the people already have the protections of our Organic Common Law. We have a binding contract under common law through the Constitution with those who claim to be operating under its capacity and in agency directly to those who consent to exercising its power for justice. The law is meant for our protections not as a weapon to enslave us.

Our recognition in our Organic Law that just powers derive from the consent of the governed is proof of our sovereignty. We hold the only path to any Lawful action of Government through the consent of our accusations and ANYONE who obstructs this lawful path is committing a crime and can be subject to arrest and brought to justice through our accusation. We can use our Grand Juries and criminal trial Juries to throw the criminals in prison and build the necessary intelligence through case evidence to route out the den of vipers of the entire criminal racket. We can do this right now but we do not use this supreme power because we seem to think we need the permission of the DA or US attorney or a Judge. It is the other way around; they need our permission(consent) for their actions to be lawful(just). This is exactly why will lose the protections of divine law. We have the free will and lawfully recognized authority realized through much blood and studious efforts of many wise people but we do not exercise our inherent Sovereign Authority as Men and Women who are We the People even with its power fully recognized at the very root of our Law.

Whether you agree with me or not is irrelevant here because it is simply fact that if we do not uphold the Law then we lose the protections of Law and therefore acquiesce divine providence to empire building criminals who will enslave us to their despotism. Divine Law is the source of order and it will offer its inspiration and grace to anyone who lives within its law but you alone are fully liable for your actions or lack thereof once the divine inspiration has been endowed upon you.

The most powerful Law of Nature is Time. It is finite and we all will run out of it. Use this Law to your advantage, for it offers you infinite possibilities...

Nothing personal

I do not agree with YOU nor do I disagree with YOU personally.

The fact is that The Constitution is an obvious Usurpation of Liberty perpetrated by the criminals who called themselves Federalists.

Claiming that The Constitution gives me the right, or takes from me the right, to do this or that is a false claim.

The Constitution is not mine, it is inculpatory evidence useful in holding criminals accountable for the crimes they commit, such as Hamilton employing the document to form a Central Bank, such as Washington using it in an Aggressive War invading Pennsylvania to crush a money competitor (so called Whiskey Rebellion), and it was use by John Adams to silence anyone daring to inform anyone else as to the fact concerning the crimes of John Adams and his fellow criminals including those, like himself, who called themselves Federalists.

That is all in that past.

I do agree, and that is why I am working toward, gaining access to forms of Natural Law, such as a possible Grand Jury position whereupon the so called Government employees are held to account according to the laws they pretend to follow.

If the idea is to enforce a Gold and Silver Money Monopoly at Monopoly Central Bank, then I can point out that that idea is a Legal Money Monopoly idea, it is the problem, not the solution.

In a Democratic Federated Republic the people who hire employees to defend Liberty can decide what to pay their employees, how much to pay them, when to pay them, and in what form to pay them, not the other way around.

When the supposed employees decide when to be paid, how much to be paid, and in which money the will be paid, that is called Despotism.

Free Market government was proven to be workable during the time period between 1776 and 1788, so why would someone claim that the way to fix the Legal Money Monopoly Power is to enforce a different Legal Money Monopoly Power?

If that enforcement of a Legal Money Monopoly Power is set aside, and instead the idea is to defend the victims from the Legal Money Monopoly Power criminals, then discovering the facts, holding the criminals to account for their crimes, can be done in an case, without the need to then create yet another new Boss (Legal Money Monopoly) to replace the old one.

I hope that helps.

Have you looked into the following?

http://nationallibertyalliance.org/default.html

http://restorelaw.com/content/workshop.html

Joe

The funny thing is here

that I actually agree with you. It just may not seem to be so obvious. I only take the Laws as the Law actually flows; from Divine Law-> Natural Law-> Organic Law-> Constitutional Law-> Legislative Code where "->" is only derived through consent because it is the only Lawful way for those laws to be applicable.

Those who lay claim to the Law as applicable need to uphold the Law they lay claim to otherwise the inviolate Divine Law will order Nature to their detriment for not obeying the very Law they lay claim to. If you do not lay claim as party to the agreement to be bound by those stated Laws then they are not applicable to you. You clearly have demonstrated what you believe to be true as the reasons for you to not consent to those laws as applicable hence by the very Divinity and Nature of Law itself those Laws are not applicable to you. I fully recognize this as completely valid and I even agree with your reasoning. This is my understanding of law. Each level Law is only applicable by your consent. Divine Law you have free will to contract with God for direct and continual access to divine inspiration with in return for your devotion to pursuit of fulfillment of the Divine inspiration thus receive its protections, Natural Law can have applicability revoked by you through your free will to remove your own life force from Nature, Common Law can be revoked/not recognized by living outside the law with the same lawful applicability/revocation/null of Organic, Constitutional and Code. It is all by consent and it is even formally recognized in the US Organic Law for those who recognize our Organic Law.

My comments are referring to those who DO lay claim to those laws as applicable. My own position here is that I am at the final leg of my journey of demonstrating the Law as not applicable due to the failure to have all required elements in a valid contract. I do/did lay claim to the Constitutional Contract BUT the other party to the agreement have failed to demonstrate a mutual understanding required for the contract to be enforceable. If we (the citizens of Government and me the governed) don't have a mutual understanding then there is no contract. Therefore I notify the Constitutional Contract as a dead letter have no obligations to me but still have an understanding that IF the Organic Law is followed without violation then that form of Common Law (not unlawful case law but actual common understanding that Law is for protection) is applicable because I would still like to have a non-violent forum for remedy (a real court with a real jury) amongst like minded law abiding peers.

My rant above was for those assholes out there who verbally lay claim to the Constitution as applicable Law but do not stay within its contractual bounds. If the Constitutional entity was all voluntary and they performed the limited defined services dutifully to the People and congruent with all other applicable layers of Natural, Common and Organic Laws then I (just myself) believe it would be a useful service to contract with with BUT they have proven themselves hypocritical, psychopathic, tyrannical, control freak, genocidal, lawless barbarians. Soooo, I don't think those freaks and I have any valid contractual agreement.

Another point I was trying to make was that even many people here on DP working to restore the Constitution really do not what the hell they are doing. They think it means get people into office who will fix everything for them. This is insanity of good but very confused people. If they lay claim to the contract then they should utilize the tools in the contract to bring justice and actually uphold the law that they claim. My main overarching point being that those who lay claim to law but do not uphold the law that they claim inherently lose the protections of divine law which dooms them to that same law being the weapon that will enslave them for committing/endorsing such a fraud to be committed against themselves and others for as long they exist within nature. This is REAL LAW.

Most people do not understand what I am saying because of my unique perspective and that's ok. I have looked into the history of law and found what I found and only return with the information discovered on my journey born of divine inspiration and dutifully followed to its end results.

It seems that little of this is applicable to you because you have already figured it all out and have chosen to go all the way back to Natural Law so that a new Common Law can be formed. Bravo, to you my friend. Welcome to the wilderness. I hope this clarifies that you and I are really not so distant in our thinking here.

The most powerful Law of Nature is Time. It is finite and we all will run out of it. Use this Law to your advantage, for it offers you infinite possibilities...

I agree too.

My comments were neutral concerning you personally. My comments had to do with a specific, documented, fraud in progress whereby that "We the People..." Legal Record is the inculpatory evidence providing the proof of the crime that began in 1788 and is today almost irrelevant as a device used by anyone other than a few people who pick from it those parts that serve their interests.

I do not see any reason to discredit a form of voluntary agreement, having the label in English of "constitution," whereby those in agreement to abide by it are employing it to keep that record of agreement preserved in case there is any doubt as to what the agreement was, in fact.

I do not necessarily agree to your take on how law "actually" flows.

To me Divine Law is Natural Law and both of those are Organic Law, all one and the same thing, so I am curious as to why there are 3 words for the same thing.

The specific areas of division from Divine Law into any other Law could be spelled out, offered, and I may agree to them, so long as we both follow Divine Law during that process?

"Those who lay claim to the Law as applicable need to uphold the Law they lay claim to otherwise the inviolate Divine Law will order Nature to their detriment for not obeying the very Law they lay claim to."

I did not read that until I finished my initial response to your first paragraph was written by me, and now I see that we are again (apparently) in agreement.

I am learning from others that it may be a good idea to express agreement (preaching to the choir?) just in case there may be misunderstanding about those conditions of agreement where they (may) exist.

"Divine Law you have free will to contract with God for direct and continual access to divine inspiration with in return for your devotion to pursuit of fulfillment of the Divine inspiration thus receive its protections, Natural Law can have applicability revoked by you through your free will to remove your own life force from Nature, Common Law can be revoked/not recognized by living outside the law with the same lawful applicability/revocation/null of Organic, Constitutional and Code."

To me those words are foreign to me, and that is not meant to be a discredit, it is as if the words are a foreign language, and so I'd need to learn the language to even begin to understand the intended meaning of those words.

I see no such thing as a contract with God, for example.

I also see no such thing as "protections" that may arrive on the scene from a source that is mysterious or in some way not identified, such as whatever may be found when someone finds "Divine inspiration."

Those are two areas of mystery to me; hence the foreign nature of the word arrangement as if I were reading a foreign language.

No discredit meant, merely my own personal experience does not include any cause for me to connect to those words as if those words were words spoken in the language that my experience allows me to recognize the meaning of those words arranged in that order.

"It is all by consent and it is even formally recognized in the US Organic Law for those who recognize our Organic Law."

I don't know what the intended meaning being "Organic Law," but one of the essential elements of Law is recognizable as conveyed (offered) with the word "consent," as far as my understanding, and consent, can go in that case.

"...form of Common Law (not unlawful case law but actual common understanding that Law is for protection) is applicable..."

I appreciate the effort to define terms in that instance, it is very helpful to me, so as to avoid an easy to make (by me) error in failing to know what is meant by the use of the term Common Law.

Case in point:

http://one-heaven.org/canons/positive_law/article/259.html

That offers one version of the definition of a Common Law.

http://www.barefootsworld.net/trial01.html

Therein is an offer for a nearly perfect opposite meaning.

Those who make their Crimes Legal, according to them, tend to use common forms of language used by free people in Liberty so as then to counterfeit those common forms of language and use that counterfeit device as a means of deception, derision, division, and aggressive violence so as to consume the targeted victims of those lies created by those secretive alterations of useful, accurate, common language.

My guess is that you can make sense of my last offer to you; contained in that last paragraph.

Money is a common form of language.

What is counterfeit money?

What is meant by the term money laundering?

"Soooo, I don't think those freaks and I have any valid contractual agreement."

I agree with the concept of using a tool, even if the tool is dull, even if the tool is fatally flawed, even if the tool was initial invented by, produced by, and maintained by criminals, to do good things, when there is a need to defend against criminals, and the lie is a perfect example.

I can explain in much greater detail, suffice to say that so long as the tool is used by those who effectively use the tool to do good things with the tool, including defense against criminals, then the tool, if it works for that purpose, is almost as good as a better tool, for that purpose.

That was why a Democratic Federated Republic had to be CRUSHED by those same criminals, they called themselves Federalists in those days, because 13 competitive Constitutions, driven by those who agree to one over the other, is the often misunderstood FORCE of MARKET FORCES working to improve quality and lower costs. So...in place with that working Democratic Federated Republic were those Market Forces which were working to improve those many competitive constitutionally limited Republics (13 of them at that time) which was working, even then, to make crime pay less, and less, and less, until the obvious result (at least obvious to the criminals who called themselves Federalists and those who verbally, and even violently, opposed Consolidation/Monopolization/Crime made Legal by the Criminals Themselves) was, in demonstrable FACT, improvements in voluntary governments based upon consent of the governed who are, in FACT, the same people, governed and governors being the same people.

So the Free Market form of government (consent) had to go, and a Consolidated/Monopoly/Fraud/Extortion government had to be put in place, and that is that "The Constitution" with the false "We The People..." dogma.

Secret proceedings?

Why gag the people attending so as to hide the facts the prove the crime to be a crime in progress?

http://www.amazon.com/Secret-Proceedings-Debates-Constitutio...

What was the point?

What is the point now?

"This is REAL LAW."

Please, see if my response fits in agreement to your words ending with that last sentence quoted above.

There is a workable monopoly and once everyone finds it and agrees to it there won't be any more competitions to consume time and energy in finding it. The working monopoly that works, in defense against criminals who pay themselves a lot of credit (which is debt in the eyes of the victims) for their "good" work which to the criminals is good by their measure according to how much the criminals can consume their targeted victims, in defense of that, in defense of crime, the victims who look for the best, highest quality, and lowest cost competitive DEFENSE of LIBERTY is, in FACT, competition.

The MONOPOLY (the one best thing) sought after by victims, so as to find, finally, the best way to defend against crime, is each person offering their own version of the best way, without any offers being SUPPRESSED violently by anyone doing said SUPPRESSING.

When the criminals claim absolute right to enforce their exclusive version (MONOPOLY) on everyone else, that is actually the definition of CRIME.

Obey without question. Pay this way or pay another way, but you will pay one way or the other according to the MONOPOLY POWER.

Example (in that so called Constitution):

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_amend...

"Section 4.
The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned."

Pay.

No: and, or, but, resistance, rebellion, insurrection, defense, Liberty, competition, agreement, negotiation, reason, logic, productivity, peace, harmony, love, or anything but PAY.

When governments are instituted among criminals for the sole purpose of consuming the productive people, then someone, somewhere, aught to question the documentation that prescribes such things being made LEGAL by those criminals upon those productive people.

Or not.

"...born of divine inspiration..."

I can find similar things happening in my life but those words remain to be foreign to me.

"It seems that little of this is applicable to you because you have already figured it all out and have chosen to go all the way back to Natural Law so that a new Common Law can be formed."

I have not "already figured it all out," hence my participation on this forum, running for congress, joining and unjoining the Libertarian Party, joining and unjoining The John Birch Society, joining and unjoining United We Stand (Ross Perot), joining and unjoining an armed march on Washington soon after the Waco Holocaust, joining and being thrown out of the Mises Institute Forum, joining and being thrown out of the Fully Informed Jury Association Forum, on, and on, and on, seeking better from worse, and not, specifically not: "already figured it all out," and if that is the impression you receive, OF ME PERSONALLY, that is not the intended message I offer to you.

"...go all the way back to Natural Law so that a new Common Law can be formed..."

Personally I think one of the most promising possibilities is the one Adam Kokesh has realized. An armed march in each State to re-establish constitutionally limited governments in each State, and then renegotiate the need for, and the payment schedule for, a FEDERAL government IF any States find cause to join one, at that point.

No, I did not say an aggressively violent MOB attacking innocent people at State Capitals, if that is the message received by anyone, what is DEMONSTRABLE are RESPONSIBILITIES (rights?) such as the responsibility (duty?) of being armed in defense of innocent victims against criminals, so why does anyone have any problem with me being armed, and him, and her, and those people, and all those other people, and all those people showing, demonstrating, the fact that they are armed, and doing so in such a way as to demonstrate our unification as armed productive people who can afford to take a day off, with the guns we can afford, and we the people demonstrate, in that way, our power to agree to defend our responsibility to defend the innocent victims from the criminals especially when the criminals take over the power of LAW (so called by those same criminals).

I joined a group awhile back that sent legal notices of redress to each congressman (or women) in each district of the so called United States of America, and what was the response?

The criminals in office failed to respond, which is a crime by their own laws.

That was a legal demonstration.

Check this out:

http://jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/bsbhm2.html

Are you aware of the events in Athens Tennessee whereby the duties, responsibilities, of honest, productive, people in Liberty had to defend their Liberty, as required, by such documents as The Declaration of Independence?

What happens when push comes to shove?

What happened in Waco in 1993?

What more proof does any rational person need, right now, to remove any further doubt as to the fact that the so called Federal "government" is nothing more than a Legalized Crime on a World Wide Level?

Who thinks that asking nicely, politely, please, will you band of criminals, please, stop robbing, enslaving, raping, beating, torturing, murdering, mass murdering, experimenting on, burning to death (alive), sacrificing, eating, consuming, mass murdering, and mega murdering for YOUR fun, and for YOUR EXCLUSIVE PROFIT?

Please?

How about pretty please with sugar on top?

"Welcome to the wilderness. I hope this clarifies that you and I are really not so distant in our thinking here."

To me your viewpoint is highly competitive, mutually beneficial, and NOT the same viewpoint as mine, unless we both agree, then it is the SAME VIEWPOINT, and where we disagree, I am perfectly willing to work toward identifying why there is disagreement, because I am probably at fault.

Joe

Your humble perspective is refreshing

Careful to the approach, seemingly aware of the vastly greater ignorance over knowledge. This is refreshing.

I would like to further clarify here.

"To me Divine Law is Natural Law and both of those are Organic Law, all one and the same thing, so I am curious as to why there are 3 words for the same thing."

I understand essentially the same thing just maybe a different perspective/articulation of this. From another post I wrote:

No law can violate any other law.

Law has a logical hierarchical order of applicability from the whole set through every entity ending with the legally defined fictional capacity with each class of law applicable to defined entities.

The hierarchy of Law

Divine Law-Source of Order-Interfaces with Man through inspiration, Interfaces with Nature as the two-opposing forces, yin-yang, entropy/enthalpy etc.

Natural Law- The Laws that govern all aspects of Nature- Interfaces with Man via physical sentient interactive processing with all of nature

Common Law- The default non-conflicting maxims and interpretations that govern the interactions of Men and the process of balanced justice in all its forms

Organic Law- Jurisdictional interpretational traits both understood and repugnant Common Law to those that adopt and proclaim them

Constitutional Law- Contractual creation of legal capacity with binding governing law for those who wish to fill the contractual capacity adopted under the organic law understanding

Statutory Law- Law that governs the lawful procedures and operations of all capacities created under the Constitutional contract

In my understanding these distinct sets of law have specific bounded application with Divine Law always applicable(the whole set), Natural Law always applicable to everything in Nature, Common Law applicable to the interactions of men (a subset of Nature), Organic Law understood common law applicable to a jurisdictional understanding among men (We Americans do not have the same common law as a native Amazonian tribe therefore their Organic Laws Define its Common Law for its Jurisdiction thus being a subset of all Common Law with Americas Standing Organic Law being the DOI), Constitutional Law applicable to parties who contract per the contractual terms (a subset of the applicable Organic Law), Statutory code applicable to the defined bounds of the agents under the fictional Constitutional Capacity (a subset of Constitutional Law applicable to those working under the capacity). The sets have discrete applicable depending on the facts of the situation where what ever set the situation is at all sets prior to it are also applicable. Hence, no law can violate any other law. Really all this layers of law are is refinement of strict constructions of law. The key enlightenment I had with all of this was when I tried to look at all law as something that requires no logical conflicts anywhere. When one does this it becomes obvious who to protect and build proper case law and especially to realize what "precedents" are actually null and void due to there direct conflict in previous law sets.

Also I am not saying these last 3 are only the prerogative of government. These could also apply to any lawful agreement made by men/women. Example, 3 men want to form a company (interaction of men is Common Law), They layout a mission statement (Organic Law), They form a contract to create the entity (capacity) and define the relationship and governing rules of the entity, i.e. operating agreement (Constitutional Law), The processes and internal rules adopted by the men in the capacity (men in the capacity of the entity is the 'person') is the Statutory Law that applies to those in the Constitutional defined capacity, i.e. employee rules/Standard Operating Procedures. Any statutory rules adopted that inconsistent with the hierarchy of Law are simply invalid and null on their face.

If we realize that no law can violate any other law and that there exists an inherent hierarchy of application of law that is isolated in its scope of application to inherently defined discreet entities then we can have a foundation for reviewing all law for removing conflict in order to asymptote at total congruency. Notice the applicable law between the interactions of man exists in common law. Notice where jurisdictional traits of common law apply to interpretation of common law. Notice Constitution is the creation of the bound capacity and resulting legislative code would apply to constitutionally created entities only. This means slimebags claiming the ability to write law all the time would be extremely limited in the scope of any application if such an understanding was well known by the People at large.

Part of the reason I came to this is because of my understanding of very strict logical programming. The law seems to be all about logic when one really delves into and it is so logical that it seems the entire process of justice can be built into an unbiased computer program with certain definite qualifiers that could be put into place to ensure proper protections by ensuring proper applicability of Law at each step of the way and be used to expose those who have mens rea to unlawfully control another man instead of just seeking truth and remedy.

I hope this further clarifies why I have come to this understanding.

The most powerful Law of Nature is Time. It is finite and we all will run out of it. Use this Law to your advantage, for it offers you infinite possibilities...

News

"Divine Law-Source of Order-Interfaces with Man through inspiration, Interfaces with Nature as the two-opposing forces, yin-yang, entropy/enthalpy etc."

The word enthalpy is new to me. I looked up the definition and my response at this point is to ask of you your opinion on a competitive alternate word that can fit the nature of existence (natural or Divine Law) better than enthalpy.

Rather than entropy/enthalpy, is it more accurate to perceive of existence along the lines of entropy/ectropy?

Here is one competitive definition of that word:

In thermodynamics, ectropy is a measure of the tendency of a dynamical system to do useful work and grow more organized.[1]

From here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ectropy

I agree with the concept, generally (highest hierarchy) while the more specific competitive explanations you offer (lower hierarchy) are less clear in my mind as to the precise differences between our competitive viewpoints. I do appreciate the effort to explain, further, in greater detail (lower hierarchy) and your efforts appear to be bearing fruit, yes?

____________________________________________
Common Law- The default non-conflicting maxims and interpretations that govern the interactions of Men and the process of balanced justice in all its forms
_____________________________________________

That remains ambiguous (or foreign) from my viewpoint. I don't know if you had time to look at the two links I sent in reference to the usage of the term Common Law. In a genuine sense of adhering to Natural or Divine Law (No law can violate any other law) one link is called Trial by Jury written by Lysander Spooner. I can get a quote from it:

_____________________________________
And other authorities abundantly corroborate this assertion.[8] The king was, therefore, constitutionally the government; and the only legal limitation upon his power seems to have been simply the Common Law, usually called "the law of the land," which he was bound by oath to maintain; (which oath had about the same practical value as similar oaths have always had.)
_____________________________________

And

______________________________________
"The common law is sometimes called, by way of eminence, lex terrae,as in the statute of Magna Carta,chap. 29, where certainly the common law is principally intended by those words, aut per legem terrae;as appears by the exposition thereof in several subsequent statutes; and particularly in the statute of 28 Edward III., chap. 3, which is but an exposition and explanation of that statute. Sometimes it is called lex Angliae,as in the statute of Merton, cap. 9, "Nolurnus leqes Angliae mutari,"&c., (We will that the laws of England be not changed). Sometimes it is called lex et consuetudo regni(the law and custom of the kingdom); as in all commissions of oyer and terminer; and in the statutes of 18 Edward I., cap. -, and de quo warranto,and divers others. But most commonly it is called the Common Law, or the Common Law of England; as in the statute Articuli super Chartas,cap. 15, in the statute 25 Edward III., cap. 5, (4,) and infinite more records and statutes." - 1 Hale's History of the Common Law, 128.
______________________________________________________

So that appears to be a type of cultural aggregate power of law, as if to find an accurate measure of the majority viewpoint, as in "the law of the land," whereby, somehow, human beings have managed to co-exist long enough to find ways to co-exist, as proven by the fact that there are more than one human being still alive, and then asking by statistical analysis what is common among all of them (except perhaps the extremes such as Jesus on one end, and the worst criminal to date on the other end, Caligula, whoever) and the average, median, agreement, turns out to be the same thing as Divine or Natural Law, which is, again, and again, the same Golden Rule type of agreement, or, as I offered earlier, the Monopoly Power of Agreement is the non-repugnant (to Divine or Natural Law) Power of Law.

Having thereby referenced a study of 13th century meanings of Common Law, which was a function of majority rule by agreement to avoid enslaving each other, which is easy to see from my view, for the opposite is thereby majority rule by agreement to enslave each other (might makes right), which would be a rapid consuming of all human life on earth as each would be at each others throat until the last two worked tirelessly to cut the second to last one on earth down, or enslave that last one? Enslave that last one and produce children to be eaten for lack of any extra economic power to plant a tomato seed?

Having the genuine version of common law, the early history one (13th Century) offered, above, and then in contrast there is a later version, which thereby shows again that often repeating Entropy/Ectropy routine, re-offered:

http://one-heaven.org/canons/positive_law/article/259.html

_______________________________________________
The word “common” comes from 15th Century Latin communis meaning "to entrust, commit to a burden, public duty, service or obligation". The word was created from the combination of two (2) ancient pre-Vatican Latin words com / comitto = "to entrust, commit" and munis = "burden, public duty, service or obligation". Hence Common Law literally means “voluntary enslavement” or simply “lawful slavery”.
________________________________________________

That source also offers information on the creation of the modern form of Language we call English. The connection to this present communication is such that between the 13th Century version of so called common law and the modernized version (counterfeit version) the English language was invented, produced, and maintained by a small group of people who set about that task to reach the obvious goal of control of the productive people by way of deception.

In other words, it was obvious to the most powerful criminals of the day that in order to enslave the productive people the criminals had to invent, produce, and maintain counterfeit language which is merely another form of counterfeit currency (money).

Out with the old meaning and practice of common law and in with a new language that usurps the old meaning and in place of the old meaning is the new, counterfeit meaning, which leads the DUPED people into altering their behavior from Lawful behavior that was not repugnant, in the past, to a New World Order whereby Lawful behavior now means, in few words: Might makes Right, which is, in demonstrable fact, a patented absurdity. Taken to the logical, reasonable, factual, and accurate accounting of what happens if everyone follows the Might makes Right Law (repugnant "law," or color of law, or fraudulent law) is, again, cannibalism, or everyone rapidly consuming everyone else until there is one person left, the winner of the rat race, the Mighty ONE having proven the fact him, or her, self.

"Common Law- The default non-conflicting maxims and interpretations that govern the interactions of Men and the process of balanced justice in all its forms"

I found my place back in our conversion as I went off track in a wide sweep, having been inspired (by your use of the term Common Law) to restate the other 2 definitions of Common Law, now there are three, as far as I can see.

1. Your definition.
2. The definition offered by Lysannder Spooner in Trial by Jury
3. The definition offered by Frank O'Collins in Positive Law

"Organic Law- Jurisdictional interpretational traits both understood and repugnant Common Law to those that adopt and proclaim them"

I do not get the meaning intended with those words, clearly not from my viewpoint, because those words "do not compute" on my end.

"Statutory Law- Law that governs the lawful procedures and operations of all capacities created under the Constitutional contract"

Those words include the word "capacities" so I can begin to compute because my form of thinking is based upon a power perspective. I can explain with one sentence.

Power produced into oversupply reduces the price of power while purchasing power increases because power reduces the cost of production.

In other words: if people invent, produce, and maintain strictly voluntary associations (avoid being victims or criminals) then that is the mode of operation that starts out in the day with less power and by cooperative effort human beings end the day with more power including the power required for defense against being victims or being criminals.

In other words: the exact opposite of Might makes Right, as an operating system for human beings, is Liberty and in Liberty there can be division of labor, specialization, and economies of scale whereby there is a rapid and exponentially accelerating rate of power production that reaches for higher standards of living and lower costs of living for all those who employ that process called Liberty (not for those who are victims, and only "profitable" for criminals in the sense that Liberty produces more than enough power to thereby be able to afford to feed the criminals a steady supply of innocent people, if innocent people fail to avoid becoming victims or criminals themselves).

In other words there must be a majority of people who access Liberty and are therefore able to produce economic power sufficient to sustain human life, and including a rate of production sufficient to supply the economic power stolen by the criminals, as the criminals then use the stolen power to steal more power.

That leads back to the Entropy/Ectropy viewpoint once again, but in human terms the Entropy part is merely Crime as in Crime/Liberty looks like Entropy/Ectropy. Crime is a counterfeit, so looks may be deceiving, confusing, and truly unrelated to the genuine article, which might be Death/Rebirth not Crime/Liberty. I'm all for avoiding any victimization by any criminals upon any innocent people - at all - while death is beyond my power to even suggest a remedy.

This is turning out to be a huge wall of text so I am going to Save it before it may get lost in the imperfect process.

Returning after a successful save of current information offered in response to welcome information being read.

"The key enlightenment I had with all of this was when I tried to look at all law as something that requires no logical conflicts anywhere. When one does this it becomes obvious who to protect and build proper case law and especially to realize what "precedents" are actually null and void due to there direct conflict in previous law sets."

I do not understand what is meant by "build proper case law" other than a possible effort to reach a possible goal and the specific (not the general) steps required to get from Point A to Point B.

Layers equate to hierarchy which equates to a known principle (Liberty) as a FACT and then how that fact works out in time and place among those living beings who realize, and are guided by, that FACT, whereby the devil is avoided in the details: meaning no law can be repugnant to the factual principle, if it is, then there is a devilish person inventing, producing, and maintaining that specific repugnance (crime) which is based upon the opposite guiding principle (Might makes Right, which is a lie).

One criminal acting alone (lone gunman theory) is not the problem, so much as the problem to be addressed by human beings currently is the problem whereby the criminals use a counterfeit version of Liberty to organize their criminal efforts into something that resembles Liberty, the criminals borrow the concept of the Golden Rule, whereby there is something similar (Honor among thieves) whereby the criminals secretly agree to be criminals among their own cooperative group, while their victims are fed the lies that cover up the criminals being what they really are in fact.

"Any statutory rules adopted that inconsistent with the hierarchy of Law are simply invalid and null on their face."

In cases where honest cooperators working within a strictly voluntary association (not a voluntary association formed for the purpose of consuming innocent victims = not the counterfeit version) is complex, those who make it complex do so for their own reasons, and it must be as complex as would be required to reach the goals intended.

When the goals intended (counterfeit forms of "law") are criminal (the goal is to consume the targeted innocent victims who are inevitably going to be those who produce something worth consuming, such as children, slaves, or the non-living things produced by productive people working in Liberty - slaves do not produce please note) when the goals are criminal it is inevitable that there will be complexity because violence must include falsehood and for every single lie there must then be two, or a dozen, to cover up the first one, and then exponentially more to cover each new one.

That is well understood by those who managed to survive Legal Crime at it's finest:

"But let us not forget that violence does not live alone and is not capable of living alone: it is necessarily interwoven with falsehood. Between them lies the most intimate, the deepest of natural bonds. Violence finds its only refuge in falsehood, falsehood its only support in violence. Any man who has once acclaimed violence as his METHOD must inexorably choose falsehood as his PRINCIPLE. At its birth violence acts openly and even with pride. But no sooner does it become strong, firmly established, than it senses the rarefaction of the air around it and it cannot continue to exist without descending into a fog of lies, clothing them in sweet talk. It does not always, not necessarily, openly throttle the throat, more often it demands from its subjects only an oath of allegiance to falsehood, only complicity in falsehood."
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/...

"all law for removing conflict in order to asymptote at total congruency"

I make of that an idea that has already been offered in the sentence I call Joe's Law (no one else uses this power perspective as far as I know, so I put my name on it):

Power produced into oversupply reduces the price of power while purchasing power increases because power reduces the cost of production.

That is opposite of Crime made Legal, or Might makes Right, whereby there is in place of Liberty the Law of Diminishing Returns, as Investors in Crime made Legal are consuming all competitors or incorporating all competitors into their Legal Crime business, so that the obvious result of that METHOD is the consuming of every productive person (in Liberty) to a point at which there are no longer any productive people producing (in Liberty) anything worth stealing, and then the return on investment goes into the negative, and then there are only criminals left on earth, and then each criminal is consuming each other criminal until the returns on investments (in crime made legal) ends completely when the last person eats the second to last person.

So the Liberty METHOD (Divine or Natural Law) reaches for infinite human life as power is used to produce more power until, for example, there is enough power to colonize Earth's Moon, Mars, man-made planets, or whatever is possible when Liberty is agreed upon and no longer is Crime made Legal affordable, which, as it turns out, is the factual case. Legal Crime, or the agreed upon method of making Might Right (a lie as it turns out) is, in fact, demonstrably, unfordable (law of diminishing returns take over), as Legal Crime taken to the logical conclusion is definable as being FINITE as in The Final Solution to the Human Being "problem."

"This means slimebags claiming the ability to write law all the time would be extremely limited in the scope of any application if such an understanding was well known by the People at large."

Here again I see the Monopoly/Competition pattern as anyone offering a voluntary arrangement of honest, accurate, words is all together opposite someone dictating a lie (such as Might makes Right) whereby the METHOD of offering is competitive, offering is competitive compared to dictating, where I can agree to those written laws that abide by my sense of The Golden Rule, and I can reject those laws that offer another version of Might makes Right (another lie) and I understand that it is my duty to do so (see The Declaration of Independence for example) rather than me being subject to lies that are false orders to be obeyed without question (see for example the 14th amendment to the so called Constitution actually being a written order to not question the written order).

"the entire process of justice can be built into an unbiased computer program"

Please consider commenting on the following link as an effort by me to say, yes, I think I understand what you are offering:

http://prisonersdilemma.sergehelfrich.eu/

The plug-in may be difficult to access, but it is worth the effort to fiddle with the visual illustration of the formula.

I see that as:

Liberty (power used to make more power out of less power) VERSUS Legal Crime (power stolen and used to steal more)

When Liberty is the dominant agreed upon process the world rapidly removes the opposing method. When Crime made Legal (Monopoly of Crime) is the dominant agreed upon process the world is a ubiquitous pogrom (some call it anarchy, but that is a false label) and there is a shining example of ubiquitous monopoly of legal crime in the Cambodian Democide under Pol Pot (who was financed by the so called "Wall Street" bunch).

So the formula I have in mind could be shown as this:

Liberty > Legal Crime = eternal human life where the standard of living reach ever higher as the costs of living reach ever lower

Liberty < Legal Crime = rapid extinction of the human species

Liberty = Crime = many people in Liberty sufficient to afford a limited number of criminals who make their crimes legal (organized crime at the top of that pyramid structure is crime made legal)

"I hope this further clarifies why I have come to this understanding."

Yes, where it does, not as much where I tried to explain my problems in understanding your welcome viewpoint.

Joe

I have no doubt that you are correct as far as it goes.

The way it works is consistent with the way the human mind works and, as we have seen, the elites are somewhat lacking in imagination preferring to repeat themselves generation after generation.

I did not watch the CAF video but gather from your comment that she is postulating the existence of another opposing group seeking to replace the present rulers. I have heard the same thing from other sources and it can also be hypothesised that these opponents are the "controlled opposition" who will usher in the intended denouement of the elites.

In any event you have provided a clear summation of the situation thus far. My personal view is that there is a further and overriding consummation that will surprise everyone and lead to a very much better world.

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

Thanks

Few people are able to respond (response able).

I think that I may have failed to communicate something specific.

You wrote this:

"In any event you have provided a clear summation of the situation thus far. My personal view is that there is a further and overriding consummation that will surprise everyone and lead to a very much better world."

I wrote this:

2. World War III is avoided and a new age of "Wild Cat Banking" ensues where there are many very competitive banks all around the world whereby people can freely choose which bank [fixed spelling from back to bank] offers the highest quality and lowest cost products, and therefore that FREE MARKET force works to FORCE the quality of banking products up, and that FREE MARKET force works to FORCE the quality of banking products down?

Is that not the same thing, on other words?

Do you know about Motu Proprio?

Joe

I had never heard of "Motu Proprio".

However on reading the wiki about it I believe it could be applied inter alia to Executive Orders issued by the President of the United States since the decrees are issued from "on high". Is that what you had in mind?

Or perhaps you are viewing every person as acting in this fashion "on their own impulse". This would be fine so long as such impulse was governed by the same ruling Law written on every heart and mind. This is actually what I believe will be the case at some time in the future. However, in the present condition of human nature this would result in a descent into barbarity since humanity is still in an immature state of spiritual development.

I do apologise for overlooking your idea of a Free Market after the fall of the present system. I believe I simply dismissed it mentally as being impossible of realisation and so "forgot" all about it. My response was conditioned on the belief that I alluded to above: that humanity is still in a spiritually immature state and incapable of the kind of productive, peaceful co-operation implied in your solution.

However there will almost certainly be a transition period after the fall of the present system, or whatever alternate system the elites have in mind which will not last, "when [God's] judgments are in the earth, [and] the inhabitants of the world [will] learn righteousness." This learning implies the spiritual training of all mankind. This training will be carried out by the immortal, incorruptible beings known in scripture as the sons of God and will entail the shifting of every human being into a higher state of consciousness from within and their eventual transfiguration into immortality and incorruptibility.

This is the only solution to mankind's dilemma and has always been the plan of God from the beginning.

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

NEWS

It was news as far as I was concerned the first time I heard information offered in the form of the words Motu Proprio.

Here is where I found that information offered:

http://blog.ucadia.com/2013/07/motu-proprio-of-francis-and-w...

I do not expect you to read that information let alone consider it to be accurate information. It is also unlikely that my 2 cents concerning that information is of much value to anyone.

I can simply say that the source of the information can be checked, the person behind that information runs a weekly call in event on Wednesday.

This Wednesday I hope to ask Frank O'Collins (the author of that blog link) for information concerning the possibilities of restoring the Rule of Law (Natural Law or Law based upon The Golden Rule instead of Man upon Man Law based upon Might Makes Right) in America utilizing Common Law Grand Juries.

Next Monday I can return to the National Liberty Alliance for further discussions on utilizing Common Law Grand Juries in all the counties in all the 50 States of these United States of America.

http://nationallibertyalliance.org/default.html

Motu Proprio, apparently, is a reversal made by the Jesuits from all out immorality to self policing among their numbers, at least that is my take on the information I have seen so far.

Take three more links and then I can begin to answer your questions that I consider to be requests by you, asking me to offer back to you my viewpoint. My viewpoint is not simple, but I believe that I have simplified the Power Struggle (Crime made Legal versus Liberty) down to the simple principles engaged.

http://www.dailypaul.com/299443/like-a-total-idiot-savant-i-...

http://www.dailypaul.com/297178/karen-hudes-stands-firm-and-...

In those 2 links are offers of information that go beyond the simple statement that report what happens as there is also offered information on why things happen, at least from those two people offering their viewpoints.

What I get from that information was already understood by me in such a way as to allow me to know my viewpoint on those separate viewpoints, and then I find that Frank O'Collins goes even beyond my understanding of those viewpoints and there is offered by Frank another, more detailed, explanation.

Final link, and then onto my viewpoint, and you can use the links as references, if you care to look, or discard them, and it is well beyond my power to make you see my viewpoint; I offer it because I appreciate those people who do as much work on this (or more) than I do, and I appreciate their help. Many more ways of viewing something beyond the one, the Monopoly, way, is a way to add dimension to that which is being observed by the observer.

http://one-evil.org/content/entities_organizations_new_world...

Quote:

"There can be no doubt we are in the middle of the greatest power struggle since World War II. It is uncertain whether the Jesuits will prevail and the system restored to order, or whether the Vatican and Illuminati will succeed in breaking the shackles of forced subservience after 200 years."

What may be happening now, in our time, is as I offered earlier, a policing of the Powers That Be (what I call Legal Crime) internally.

While that is happening there won't be World War III, in my opinion, since World War III requires that the Monopoly Power is a Monopoly Power, which can be known as such because there is no Legal Money Competition when there is instead a Monopoly Money Power, such as the current one, which is The Dollar Hegemony being run out of The World Bank/The Federal Reserve.

While there is a fight over control among the most powerful human beings roaming this planet, and that POWER is measurable as The Power to Purchase LEGALLY, there won't be a concerted effort to use that POWER to conduct World War III.

World Wars are not what the victims are led to believe, out of control, they are instead investments made by those in Power so as those in Power stay in Power, they must destroy the Power to resist when the Power to resist grows too Powerful among their victims, in each Nation/Country/State whatever.

Those in Power ARE NOW fighting among themselves and as long as that goes on there will then be relative freedom among the so called Tax Payers around the world. While the most POWERFUL (Power to Purchase) fight among themselves the actual source of that POWER to PURCHASE are no longer the intense focus of effort by those who are, temporarily, fighting among themselves.

Those who produce something worth stealing, each day, on average, those who are called Tax Payers, are normally the focus of effort by the most Powerful, when the most Powerful are cooperating among themselves. They, the most powerful, divide us, and conquer us, normally.

Now they, those who have control of the process known as Central Banking, they are now fighting among themselves.

There are many ways to look at that and I offer 2, and my understanding is such that it is the later view that is the more likely one to be accurate.

1.
Currency Wars lead to World Wars because the competing Central Banking Powers end up fighting among themselves in shooting wars.

2.
Currency Wars lead to World Wars because those cooperating in Central Banking Powers employ their POWER to destroy so as to keep the victims POWERLESS to invent, produce, and maintain money (currency) competition among themselves without the "help" of the Central Bankers.

I think that this current effort on my part is reaching past the point of diminishing returns; so I will stop here and read the rest of your welcome response, and then I may find more words to add to this already long reply.

"However, in the present condition of human nature this would result in a descent into barbarity since humanity is still in an immature state of spiritual development."

On Monday, yesterday night, during my first call to John and his group called the Notional Liberty Alliance, I objected to the wording in their Affidavit to be filed by acting Common Law Grand Jurors and it was agreed to add words that pledge devotion to a power other than mankind. I don't claim to know God myself, my understanding is such that there are two types of Law that can be understood in this way:

1. Might Makes Right, or Rule by Man (criminals) upon Man (victims)

2. Not 1

If the idea is to fight against the first order, then many people are on board because they believe in God in some form, and there are also those who are on board because they believe in such things as Natural Law. I fall into the middle of those categories, but I am an individual, I am not a category.

So the affidavit is now changed on the National Liberty Alliance webpage. In fact my objection was already fixed by John before I objected, they had not updated the Web Page until today.

So, yes, there has to be a general increase in awareness of powers greater than criminals overpowering victims whereby the criminals claim to be Gods themselves, or the criminals claim to be Law themselves, when by their deeds those claims of being God or Law are lies, since their deeds constitute inculpatory evidence proving the fact that they are, in fact, criminals.

If, for example, mass torture and mass murder for fun and profit is, by some method of thinking, not a crime, then there is no such thing as crime, and that is something that can be identified scientifically as necrophilia. A condition of human life whereby the human is born without the part of the brain normally working when human empathy/sympathy/conscience operates, there is in that individual a difference from the norm. I can site sources.

A natural response to mass torture and mass murder for fun and profit in normal human beings is not glee, elation, happiness, so therein lies the lie that crime is a passing fashionable, or outdated, notion, as the Legal Criminals may want their victims to believe.

So when are the self-governors going to access their power in avoiding the ongoing connections between criminals and victims?

Now, more than ever, in my life, the window of opportunity is open.

"My response was conditioned on the belief that I alluded to above: that humanity is still in a spiritually immature state and incapable of the kind of productive, peaceful co-operation implied in your solution."

Here is where the viewpoint offered proves validity by employing available,easy to find, or ubiquitous, evidence.

We will know that Liberty (Free Markets for some) are winning because there will be competition in Legal Money Markets.

There are ways, methods, used by the Legal Criminals, to fool the victims into a false sense of security as to the available evidence proving the case, and those are called by many names such as "Quantitative Easing" and "inflation" whereby the Legal Criminals, or Central Bankers, increase the money supply and they are not, currently, perpetrating massive War.

You know how it works, I trust, as those "artificial booms" create sayings like "War is good for the Economy."

The proof of a new age of reason will be an often changing of the guard as to which supplier is offering the highest quality Legal money at the lowest cost, just as happens in computers and phones whereby computers and phones exemplify Free Market Competition Currently.

Another example of Free Market Competition is NEWS products now competing on the Internet.

Example:

Right now Alex Jones, Boiling Frogs, The Daily Paul, Asia Times, and Al Jazeera compete for a share of the limited supply of world wide consumers of information. Which one of those on that short list are now invited into Main Stream (so called) Network Television in America?

I have noticed, just now, on Television, that Al Jazeera commercials are finding their way into American Television "programs".

Why not Alex Jones?

Legal Currency is not limited to money. Currency is information. Information is currency. Purchasing POWER is the quality and the cost rolled into one, when dealing with monetary currency.

When consumers World Wide can trade Legal Currency on the Internet, on a whim, daily, then that will signal the end to Legal Crime, because then will be the time when that force of competition will be forcing the producers of Legal Money to obey the orders of the consumers instead of the consumers being forced by fraud, threats, and violence to use ONLY the ONE Money produced by the worst examples of human beings ever to disgrace the concept of human life on Earth.

I don't mean that people can log onto a Web Page and sell Federal Reserve Notes for Euros, which already happens, because, and again, the Legal Money Powers are all in on the fraud.

When I can move my savings from California money (money required to pay California costs, bills, taxes, rent, groceries) to Utah Money (They are right now moving to Gold backed currency) or Solar City Money, or Telsa Motors Money, or whatever money I want, because a Web Page like Price Watch has the best money listed on the top of the page that day.

Right now The Federal Reserve is the fraud that covers the extortion of The Internal Revenue Service, and through The Military Industrial Complex, including The World Bank, The International Monetary Fund, and the United Nations, all controlled by the same group (unless they are now in-fighting) the victims, World Wide, are forced to pay the tax of Inflation every time those criminals double, or triple, or quadruple, their exclusive money supply POWER to PURCHASE, because they want to buy something. They buy destructive things because destructive things are good for their economy.

So how hard would it be to improve upon that money supply?

When there is one Monopoly Money Power (also known as World Reserve Currency) the quality and cost of the money is very high, and all the other legal money "competitors" are forced lower in quality, as the greater, not the lesser, of two evils use their purchasing power to destroy, and that is costly. What happens when a competitor is allowed to compete and their power to purchase is invested in producing more power to purchase?

That answer is simple, one way invests in destruction and all profits go to the criminals while all the victims pay the bills, and the other way invests in an abundance of POWER TO PURCHASE; which means, in fact, in measurable reality, higher standards of living, lower costs of living, for every competitor, not only for those who destroy competition.

Legal Crime, or World Reserve Currency Power is war being good for the profits of those few who are in power.

Liberty is no longer having Legal Crime making war so profitable for those few.

What is happening to the average Power to Purchase?

If it is going down, then Legal Crime is in force, and the criminals are making war good for their economy.

If the power to purchase, on average, is going up, then those Legal Criminals are for whatever reason, in-fighting, their black hearts are no longer into it as much, whatever reason, if power to purchase, on average, is going up, it is because Liberty is in force, Free Markets are in force, and the consumers drive quality up and costs down; which means, in fact, higher standards of living, and lower costs of living.

Which way is the wind blowing?

Utah, for one example, Virginia for another, and another is Arkansas, I think, I have links, are beginning to work toward what appears to be inevitable, which is a collapse of the current World Reserve Currency POWER.

What replaces it?

Free Market competition or a new overreaching imperial POWER?

What does history tell us?

The British Empire with the Bank of London (the winners of The Revolutionary War in America) moved their base of operation from England to America before, and during, and officially after World War II.

Remember Ross Perot and the Giant Sucking Sound? Capital has by flying to Asia for decades, just like capital was flying to Germany and Russia before World War II.

Are they getting ready to rumble?

Have they run into a snag, as their own membership have called foul with Motu Proprio?

Will the worst of the worst regain control of the monopoly?

Will China be the new boss in town?

Is it the same group of the same people or is it the machine?

Monopoly or Competition?

Legal Crime or Liberty?

How can anyone tell?

Look in your wallet. Do you have a choice to use the better money today?

Who says you don't?

If you follow the fraud money what do you find a the source of it and why do you listen to them as if they are the authorities?

"This learning implies the spiritual training of all mankind. This training will be carried out by the immortal, incorruptible beings known in scripture as the sons of God and will entail the shifting of every human being into a higher state of consciousness from within and their eventual transfiguration into immortality and incorruptibility."

For some of us, like me, the process is almost imperceptibly slow, while others are gaining fast. If a person is not looking it is harder to see the improvements. I've been looking carefully for over 2 decades.

"This is the only solution to mankind's dilemma and has always been the plan of God from the beginning."

We may not have the same understanding of that power of creation, but I think the differences are incidental.

Joe

An online book you may find interesting.

Self evidently there is no one under God who knows everything and it is my belief that we should not try to do so.

By faith we can know that we have a purpose within the overarching Plan and Purpose of God and it is enough for each of us to find that purpose and to trust in the One who has apprehended us to serve Him and mankind to lead us into everything He has designed us to be.

This does not imply a willing blindness to what is set before us but everything we learn MUST lead us closer to the One who set us on this course and everything we learn MUST result in a deeper personal identification with the One who has finished the work set before Him of uniting Heaven and Earth in Himself. If what we learn does not meet these criteria then it is useless chaff and must be burned up in the fire of His Spirit.

I believe that we are unconscious of our growth except at intervals ordained by the One who is leading us and causing us to grow through His Life in us. We are familiar with natural growth and its principles and we likewise must become aware of spiritual growth and its principles. The order is first the natural then the spiritual. The natural happens over time and the corresponding requirement for spiritual growth is obedience. Obedience is the consequence of faith and responding to the light and specific revelation one is given according to that faith.

This is a very personal experience and each one of us is a unique creation both natural and spiritual. This means that what you are called to do and be is axiomatically different than what I am called to do and be. There are however points of agreement and contact in our lives when we can recognise another human being in the same Way and manifesting the same nature and character as the One who has called us into Himself. This may be at a time when one is still unaware of the calling yet is clearly being influenced by His voice.

Everything that is happening in the world today began in the highest spiritual realm. This is the realm of cause and we live in the realm of effect. Those who believe the opposite are the ones who are the rulers of this present darkness. They attempt to manipulate and bend God to their will, treating Him as a potter treats clay. God has always used this behaviour to serve His Plan and Purpose and we are now coming to the end of their rule when He is turning them against each other.

He has His people in the Earth, His remnant of grace, His Amen people, and they have been engaged in spiritual warfare during the past twenty years in particular to carry out His plans for the end of this Age. This book records the work of one group of these warriors and is well worth reading to give one a genuine sense of hope:

http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.net/teachings/books/wars-...

The author of the book, Dr. Stephen Jones, has just completed a series on The Second Law that I have found to be most enlightening and it is I believe a watershed in the teaching of the Law of God from a spiritual perspective.

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

I bookmarked

Thanks for the words and the link. Often is the case when someone suggests that I read something I am inspired to comment on the words offered.

"This may be at a time when one is still unaware of the calling yet is clearly being influenced by His voice."

Unaware is a word that conveys an absolute measure of having no awareness; therefore I do not measure up into that mold. Unconvinced as to the accuracy of my perception of God is my current state of awareness. That is how things are with me if I get to be the judge of what I see, and if I do not, if I have to obey orders from another human being who claims to know what God is or is not, then I see a serious problem in that usurpation of my capacity to know better from worse.

Joe

I hope you find it helpful.

After recommending you read the book I started reading it again and once again I find it very relevant to my own life and experience.

You are quite correct to seek to know God personally. How else could you have a personal relationship with Him? However the scriptures are inspired by God and I have always found that He reveals Himself to me in His Word and in prayer as well as in the teachings of anointed men and women of God.

The only Way to know God is in His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. When you know the Son you know the Father. This is how God chose to reveal Himself to us and there is no other Way. If you can receive this then you will be open to receive more.

You say you are unconvinced as to the accuracy of your perception of God. Personally I know absolutely that I do not yet know Him as fully as I am known by Him. My awareness of Him in my life every day is growing and my understanding of His nature and character, His real identity, is also growing but I know I still have some way to go as I seek to identify with Him. This work of unveiling or revelation of the Son in me is His work. My work is just to witness His work and testify to what He reveals to me as clearly and as accurately as I can.

Thanks for the discussion Josf. It was enjoyable.

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)