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The Pope Condemns Idolatry Of Cash In Capitalism. The Pope Is Wrong.

The pope doesn't know what he is talking about.

True capitalism encourages savings and all of the character building that goes along with it.

Our corporatist banking system (banking 'regulated' by government) encourages materialism by issuing easy credit which encourages people to spend money they don't have. When everyone is spending money they don't have everyone has to buy more in order to keep up with everyone else.

Easy credit also means artificially low interest rates (rates kept low by government regulation).  Low interest rates on loans means even lower interest rates on savings and so there is little motivation to save money.

This is how the government destroys the principled lesson of delayed gratification, a lesson that is  inherent in capitalism as it balances spending and savings with interest rates set by the free market.

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Sedevacantism - he is not a true pope

http://novusordowatch.org/pope-francis.htm

There are some moral problems with capitalism though for Catholics. Namely, Cahtolics were anti-libertarian (liberalismisasin.com) in the sense that you could not do ANYTHING with your money, and to pursue too much money is the sin of greed - just to mention a few problems.

Also, I started a thread on Distributivism, might be related to solving this problem or issue. Distributivistreview.com - Catholicism and economics, a different theory.

@eriefreedomalli

You are not thinking this through

First, the Pope is not a political leader, he is a religious leader. Call him a liar or disingenuous; that is a different debate. Assume he is what he is supposed to be; that is a religious leader.

Do not assume he is making intellectual statements about the macro economy. Assume as he should be that he is speaking kind and theistic proverbs to the man and not the men among us. He may be speaking to John Smith, or to Uncle Scrooge. Those sorts of people could use that message. Perhaps there are others like, name someone, who do employ as good capitalists, and who do subscribe to libertarianism, but who also do indeed take care of their workers. That is what the Pope may say is lacking in today's world. We have no business men, we have only people who care about themselves. This is not a crime of course, but in any world it is something which can be shunned. You don't scratch my back I wont scratch yours.

Think through what he says. Imagine if it was the Dalai Lama speaking useless but befuddling proverbs. Just a thought for the day.

23

Every actor within the

Every actor within the economic system of the entire world, on whatever level, acts as an individual an d is responsible to his own conscience for whether he exploits a person or people unjustly for profit, in a given situation, or not.

Whether the individual is acting entirely as a free agent or carrying out responsibilities for an institution, all economic activity involves the choices of individuals and their priorities.

It is important not to confuse laws of economic behavior which may or may not be valid scientifically, with the moral strictures of a religious point of view and the governance of one's own behavior in accord with such a moral system or in violation of it.

The Pope is a head of a religious community that upholds moral standards for every individual, whether acting purely for themselves or as representatives of an institution and carrying out its chartered purpose.

Saying I work for a corporation, the purpose of which is to create profit for shareholders, is not an excuse for engaging in immoral behavior leads people into harm. Dumping toxic securitized assets off on pensions made perfect economic sense, as did writing the loans in the first place, for those individuals who did it at that moment. What may be legal economic activity, often impossible to spot or regulate, can be the subject of moral constraint if people indeed behave morally.

Laws could not stop such behavior, nor punish it after the fact, but morality could have prevented it. No economic system will ever be free from fraud and evil if the people which compose it have unrestrained greed in their hearts, and are willing to do evil.

It is a little silly to imagine people could adopt unrestrained greed and willingness to do harm to others, on the economic plane, and not have the same morality and attitude when it comes to using the state to advance their economic interests and taking everything they can get by coercive means as well as economic advantage.

The whole libertarian idea depends at bottom on moral behavior, since it demands people do not use the state or empower the state for their own immoral purposes against others, even when they can.

The state may be the arm of coercion, but it is private individuals and private interests which use their influence and wealth, often legitimately obtained, to empower the apparatus of the state to enrich themselves further. To protect their ill gotten gains, to bail out their friends, and to exploit people all around the world economically.

Nothing will stop the wealthy and powerful from using the inherent possibility of force in nature against others to exploit or harm them. You can decapitate the state but 3 heads will grow back where there was one, if the will for it to exist is there.

It is false to try to separate components of morality into purely coercive and purely non coercive compartments. If someone is willing to act truly immorally without coercion, they are of a state of character and spiritual condition that will make them jump at the first chance to benefit from coercion.

If the powerful want to act immorally in a private capacity, why not also with the aid of the state.If they have the wealth and influence, they will be able to do so.

It may make economic sense for the bottom line of a company to do plenty of immoral things that would violate the imperatives of the body the Pope speaks for.

If people are unable to separate moral from economic life, that it their problem and not the Pope's.

Does This Mean...?

...the Pope will be eliminating the part of Catholic Mass which involves the passing around of the collection baskets? How much cash does the Vatican already have and what does he intend to do with it all? The Church may not "idolize" cash, but it sure has a knack for accumulating more and more of it.

That's a lot of voluntary contributions.

Should they squander them. Should they make up for what governments steal?

How should they disperse funds, how is it done without creating cronies who benefit and others who don't

I hear that the government is considering raiding the temples in India for the gold donated to them.

Free includes debt-free!

Pope is anti-market and pro-state

"Not paying fairly, not giving a job because you are only looking at balance sheets, only looking at how to make a profit. That goes against God!"

Source: http://goo.gl/zOi494

Attacking unchecked capitalism, the pope said the growing inequality in society was caused by "ideologies which uphold the absolute autonomy of markets and financial speculation, and thus deny the right of control to States, which are themselves charged with providing for the common good".

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Francis#Capitalism

In this statement the head of the Roman church is correct:

“It is the consequence of a global choice, an economic system which leads to this tragedy; an economic system which has at its centre an idol called money.”

Money is what the Lord Jesus called mammon. The choice he mentions was not however made by everyone in the same degree but rather primarily by the few who control the financial system.

The scriptures tell us that it is the love of money that is the root of all kinds of evil. This is another way of saying that making an idol of money is at the root of all kinds of evil.

However I do believe that we must go deeper and understand exactly what scripture teaches us that mammon or money is. When we do so, we can see clearly that money is intrinsic to any possible economic system or any system of government created by men, including religions. Not only is this true but the worship of money is actually the celebration of all the physical and mental achievements of men, all the creations, inventions, philosophies, religions and ideologies produced by the genius and energy of men. All of these constitute idols of the human heart and all are collectively mammon.

There can be no escape from this idolatry except through the means provided by God, the Cross of the Lord Jesus Christ. This is the message that the head of the Roman church should be teaching. Instead he is saying that we should be putting people at the centre of any economic system rather than money. This is well meant I am sure but scripture teaches that we must replace mammon with God. Replace the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil with the Tree of Life. Replace rebellion and disobedience, the worship of the self that is symbolised by the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, with the obedience of faith in and worship of the Lord Jesus Christ who is the Tree of Life

He has not realised that money actually symbolises the achievements of all people everywhere and that is why it is worshipped. It is Man worshipping himself collectively. It is Man making of himself a god. The original rebellion writ large. Money is the outcome of the judgement placed upon Adam by the LORD God in Genesis 3:17-19.

If we accept this judgement in humility and work with that spirit of acceptance, placing our hope in the Lord Jesus Christ for ultimate deliverance and redemption from this prison of sin and death, then and only then can money be put in its proper place and used righteously according to the laws of God. This however requires absolute surrender to Christ and an understanding of His Law of the Spirit of Life which He imparts to us.

This results in victory over the spiritual enemy at the centre of the world system who is the liar and deceiver known as the devil; victory over all the temptations and beguilements of the world, the deceitfulness of riches; victory over all the improper appetites and desires of the flesh; victory over sin and ultimately over death. All of these are connected with one another and find their home in us, in our hearts and in our minds and this is where the war is fought and won through the Water, the Blood and the Spirit when we are born from above and begin our Life that is hidden with Christ in God.

These last three are symbols and are likewise connected and find their home in us when we have been born from above: the Water for the written and living Word of God from above, the Truth that defeats the lies of the devil; the Blood for the indestructible Life of the Lord Jesus Christ that He gives us in exchange for the limited life of mammon, self, that we have in this world and that we surrender to Him; the Spirit for the Spirit of the Son of God who gives us the new birth, conceived of God, the Spirit that is given to us to put to death the deeds of the flesh and to cause us to grow up together into the fullness of Christ.

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

Pretty lame cheapshot at the

Pretty lame cheapshot at the Pope. If you want to write a mediocre article regurgitating half understood concepts of lowest common denominator internet Austrian econ, you can do so without dragging the Pope into it.

The pope is right on!

Sound money should be at the top of the list of any economy. However the ends do not justify the means. We have to put all human life first for without this fundamental concept money is worthless. Take pride in how you earn your money people and never forget we are Stewards to eachother. Life... Liberty... The pursuit of happiness.

Isn't he saying...

Isn't he saying that putting money over people and making money your main motivation in life is not a good way to live? I don't think he is saying that making money is a bad thing. I do believe that work gives a person dignity and self respect. Isn't this what Libertatrians believe, that people should work and care for themselves. He's talking about the world economic system and how effed up it is which it is. I just heard Ron Paul talking about how the gap between the rich and poor is growing greatly and we're all getting hosed by the global economic system.

I'm not sure exactly what the problem with what he is saying actually is. I know he's Catholic and therefore an automatic target for many but then again, maybe I'm dense and missing what the hubub is all about.

The title is somewhat misleading as well. It should have just read "The Pope condemns idolatry of cash. IMO, he is wrong". But then again, that wouldn't get as many clicks to the OPS website. Sensationalism sells even if titles are lacking accuracy.

Substitute "religion" in that

Substitute "religion" in that statement and I think you've got something.

You mean....

You mean substitute religion for money in my statement?

FTFY: "Making religion your

FTFY: "Making religion your main motivation in life is not a good way to live."

Money is the root of all good

Money is a medium of exchange. You obtain it by serving others.

If you have issues with money, then you have issues with barter and trade and peaceful cooperation.

If you want to know why there are problems in the world, study Austrian economics.

When someone, who is ignorant of economics, speaks about societal problems, it is the duty of libertarians to correct them and to introduce them to the non-aggression principle.

Here's an excellent article by Walter Williams on the subject of serving others.

http://townhall.com/columnists/walterewilliams/2012/01/04/i_...

Agreed

I'm not sure if you're disagreeing with my comment, agreeing or just adding to.

No problem with money on my end and I don't think the Pope has a problem with people earning money. I think he's actually saying money is a good thing and that people do better in life when they have a job and can provide for themselves and families.

I have studied Austrian Economics to a certain degree and I think the reason the world is in trouble is because noone follows Austrian economics, they believe in the Keynesian theory (which doesn't work evidenced by the world we live in).

I think the Pope would agree with the non-aggression principle given that is what Jesus taught and I've seen nothing from the Pope to lead me to believe he doesn't also believe in that.

Pope is pro-state and anti-market

From Wikipedia:

Pope Francis urged world leaders to prevent excessive respect for money, which he said had become "worship of the golden calf"...

Attacking unchecked capitalism, the pope said the growing inequality in society was caused by "ideologies which uphold the absolute autonomy of markets and financial speculation, and thus deny the right of control to States, which are themselves charged with providing for the common good".

He is against markets and he supports government redistributing wealth.

F-king Bolshevik this Pope

Go Francis and trade in your white uniform for a red one, and your crook for a hammer and sickle, don't hide your light under a bushel.

"Alas! I believe in the virtue of birds. And it only takes a feather for me to die laughing."

Rothbard:

“It is no crime to be ignorant of economics, which is, after all, a specialized discipline and one that most people consider to be a ‘dismal science.’ But it is totally irresponsible to have a loud and vociferous opinion on economic subjects while remaining in this state of ignorance.”

Amen!

Sometimes those who speak loudest, or from the highest point, have the least to say worth hearing.

Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them. - Frederick Douglass

As an exile, his father lost everything and was often jobless.

He could understand their concerns, they were once his own.

Making the next step requires economic understanding.

Cronyism served by unbridled force is a greedy beast, man made.

I've been re-reading Asimov's Foundation Trilogy. Having read Rothbard, it struck me as Rothardian in the way Asimov wove religion, trade, and government into his fictional galactic history.

Free includes debt-free!

He gives too much credit to

an economic system. He believes that fallible men can "institute some economic system" ( i.e. use force) to stop people from being materialistic. People either are or are not materialistic based on their personal ethics. An economic system won't make somebody try to accumulate wealth, it just changes the best way to go about that.

Even pure communism ends up with some people having more stuff than others as those who lead grant themselves the largest share of the community resources.

Instead he should focus on honesty - honest trades with honest money - which requires freedom of speech, and non-intervention from those not part of the exchange.

As Ron Paul said, nothing

As Ron Paul said, nothing promotes peace like trade and sound money facilitates trade. There is a great mutual respect and honor in trading one's hard earned goods for another for the benefit of both.

We all share this eternally evolving present moment- The past and future only exist as inconsequential mental fabrications.

Things are not always as clear as they are portrayed.

Please read the comment linked below. I cannot emphasize enough the implications of a Jesuit (from a Latin American country) on the Throne of Peter. It isn't simply about religion. It's about powerful positioning in the NWO.

http://www.dailypaul.com/comment/3204572

“It is the food which you furnish to your mind that determines the whole character of your life.”
―Emmet Fox

Peter's Throne you say?

PLEASE nonna, tell us all about Peter's throne and where can we read about that in the Word of God and please do not refer to Matthew 16:18 because that is not what Christ was telling him, as Christ alone is "The Rock".
There is but one throne and that is the Throne of God!

Thank You

" In Thee O Lord do I put my trust " ~ Psalm 31:1~

That is the name used for the papal seat.

PLEASE stop distorting the messages DPers are trying to convey. We are not discussing religious views. This is about politics and the Catholic Church is and always has been a major player. Now is a crucial time in the game and it wouldn't be a good idea to dismiss this particular Pope's role in the coming NWO.

Nobody here needs to be preached at by another DPer... least of all me. I would ask that you kindly treat people the way you would want them to treat you. You have a right to your version of the Truth, just as everyone else does. This is a place for politics, not evangelization. We've had enough of the "holy wars" comments like yours perpetuate.

Your comments have turned people off from learning more about things that interest them, as you go off topic which leads away from the subject to be discussed. It's called trolling. I'm sure you didn't intend to troll but, that is what you are doing.

“It is the food which you furnish to your mind that determines the whole character of your life.”
―Emmet Fox

DISTORTING-TROLLING?

My my nonna, your words to me speak much.

I simple stated that Peter had, and has NOT any throne other than that which is given him by deceivers and devils, and you say that I am distorting!

I am stating both truth and fact!

The catholics say many things that are ungodly and unbiblical and I am merely pointing that out to some who may not know.

Now to speak the truth about the Word of God and His magnificent salvation is considered trolling!

To speak truth about anything, is not preaching nor is it trolling to ever speak about things pertaining to God and that can fall into any catagory regardless of what you may say.

He is everywhere, and so is His Spirit within His people!

One can agree, or disagree.

What's so difficult about that?

Yes, many, both here and world wide, are offended by the Truth of God's Word just as Jesus said.

Say what you will, and I will do likewise, and may everyone else here do so without the fear of being villified by you or anyone else.

Peace

" In Thee O Lord do I put my trust " ~ Psalm 31:1~

The Pope is a devil and is anti-Christ

We are commanded to work to provide for ourselves, our family, and to help those without, the Bible says.

Joseph of Arimathea was a very rich man, and yet he was a follower of Christ.

It's the love of money that is sinful!

His so called "church" has NO problem raking in the millions upon millions, upon millions $$$ year after year after year!

Hypocrite is he!

Listen to what The Lord says about money, and NOT what some so called "pope" says!

The Word of God says: "The love of money is the root of all evil"

The popes both past and present have lead many to the way of death and damnation with their damnable devilish doctrines.

Follow him and his teachings and your eternity will be one of great sorrow!

" In Thee O Lord do I put my trust " ~ Psalm 31:1~

Although you make good points

I would point out that the Catholic Church is the largest charity in the world and does a lot of good. That is not to say that they haven't had their faults. I think when charging one with hypocracy, one should be careful to not be hypocritical. Meaning, why judge the splinter in a neighbors eye when you have a log in your own. To condemn Catholics to an eternity of sorrow because they purportedly don't believe the same as you is in its own right casting judgement. If all sins are equal, then casting judgement is just as bad as what the Catholic Church has done wrong in the past. Just my $0.02.

'Capitalism' or 'Free Market'?

Do mean 'Capitalism' or 'Free Market'? I know what free market means, the word capitalism has been confused, therefor it hard to say what he meant.

If he said it in Italian, that probably makes it even more confusing.

Strictly speaking capitalism

Strictly speaking capitalism is capitalism. Private ownership of the means of production, (and everything else). As opposed to socialism which is government ownership of the means of production. It use was popularized by Marx's writings who wanted to draw this very distinction.

If you add in fascism, nominal private ownership but government control of the means of production, it becomes clear what system we are burdened with and it's neither capitalism nor socialism.

Personally I'm fond of the word capitalism and I mean it in the sense Marx did and in the sense Austrians do, free markets.

I also think it's counterproductive to keep giving up words. People who are attracted to freedom can hardly find their brethren if they keep making us change our banner. Do we believe in capitalism, free markets, a voluntary society? Obviously we believe in all of those and they are the same thing.

This is a tactical argument and I'm not committed either way.

I'm inclined to keep the word capitalism, and instead of retreating from the negative connotations, point out that they are not the result of capitalism but the result of fascism, and to a lesser extent, in some markets like education, or health care in some countries, of socialism. Education is the only fully socialized market and we see the result is atrocious. In the US health care is fully fascistic, there is not one thing you can do without permission, and the result is similarly atrocious. One can easily contrast with fully elective health care which is much more of a free market, or fully free market health care (for foreigners) in places like India.

I think it's problematic to allow them to shift the results of a collectivised economic system onto a word which is associated with us who categorically reject such.

If we say "I'm not a capitalist, I'm a free marketeer" we're essentially admitting to a crime we never committed. It certainly looks to the person deciding the issue for themselves that we seem to be guilty of something.

If they have so sullied the word that we have to give it up, so be it. But it does mean we lost a battle, and that ground will have to be made up.