32 votes

I'm at a loss about what to do about the Granger

After all, she's been here so long. User #408.

And let's face it, we're all here for one reason: We all supported Ron Paul for President. That is, and will always be, our forever bond - no matter where we go, or where we end up.

People are moving on their separate ways. Like dandelion seeds to the wind. I saw a guy wearing a t-shirt with a dinosaur on it, and the words, "All my friends are dead."

Sometimes I feel like that here. So many people have come through these doors at the DP. And then, they just disappear into the ether. But it was all they they ever were - parts of the ether. I never saw them, spoke with them, seen the idiosyncrasies of their movement or dress. No physical representation, aside from what I've crafted in my mind.

- - - - -
Remember '07? That will always be the highlight for me, because it was an original creation. So many things unfolded spontaneously, and beautifully. The Ron Paul Blimp remains a stellar achievement of that era. The Rudy Giuliani Game Changer.

Completely spontaneous. The Granger was there for '07.

2012 was so much more scripted. A template had been laid, and had to be followed. Everyone expected it. They even expected the blimp to be back. That's just suffocating.

Having to follow a script, I mean. Boring. Generally.

- - - -

The Daily Paul, also is in unchartered water. We have the scripts here - scripts of how we behave. It is boring. Predictable.

I'm done fighting with people. Nothing personal. Its just that 8 years of it takes its toll. I'm tired.

I don't want to come in here and see someone in a rage about their pet topic, mowing people down. I don't like seeing people reflexively downvoting people, just because of who they are. Then again, I was reminded (by The Granger) that I jumped on top of the pig pile at the end as well.

And so I did. Because I'm sick of the dogma.

I feel like I should ask her if she wants to come back and explain what happened. Because I don't get it. Somebody joked that the Granger was the only person ever to go from Ron Paul to being a neo-con.

I want to know what happened.

Granger, do you want to tell us?

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A fact...

A fact I have campaigned against since it started. The DP was a more peaceful, friendly and respectful place before this was added. I have now observed more flame wars and debate over just votes than any other topic. It creates an animosity for one another that was never there before. If it was meant to conserve resources it seems to have become counter productive and in the end uses even more resources because of the pointless fights and comments about who vote who up or down. I see folks blaming each other for down votes when in reality it was third parties placing their bets on one or the other. It was the determining factor in me leaving here for awhile, It had just become disgusting how much mental energy and board space was being wasted in trivial fights about votes. Thank you for your very astute observation.

If I disappear from a discussion please forgive me. My 24-7 business requires me to split mid-sentence to serve them. I am not ducking out, I will be back later to catch up.

Maybe Michael could get rid

Maybe Michael could get rid of downvoting, but upvoting is a very useful tool. Downvote could be changed to something more serious like "Report" so it's not for just people who disagree, but if they actually break a rule.

Freedom in our lifetime! - fiol.us

I suggested this months ago

I suggested this months ago to Nystrom, but he never replied back. It's only recently that I found out why. In one of his recent replies, he stated that he's not a fan of eliminating downvoting, because it doesn't make sense for him as one should equally be able to upvote and downvote. To just eliminate downvoting would curb freedom (or something akin to this).

I must admit, his comment made me think. I do agree in the ultimate free society, to disable downvoting would be unnecessary, because freedom lovers would be able to curb their own negative nature and not abuse the downvoting system.

But we don't live in that world today.

After careful consideration, I still stand by my reasoning to disable downvotes. What Nystrom doesn't understand is that rules/systems CAN encourage freedom. It's the same reason that states must still have laws. The way to make sure that these laws work is for the states to compete, so that eventually the efficient laws get copied by another state.

Rule of law is necessary to kickstart freedom. Eventually, the people will become more Liberty minded. When that happens, rules and laws will start to hold freedom back and may become cumbersome. It's at that moment you repeal them as they become unnecesary.

Hmmm, yeah that doesn't make

Hmmm, yeah that doesn't make too much sense to me. Is it 'curbing freedom' to not allow people to post a comment above the OP instead of below it? Seems kind of arbitrary.

Freedom in our lifetime! - fiol.us

Well said

The thing is in all free voting processes including every election system in the world there is only voting "For" something and never voting "Against" something. Not voting for something is actually displaying the freedom to not support that something.

If I disappear from a discussion please forgive me. My 24-7 business requires me to split mid-sentence to serve them. I am not ducking out, I will be back later to catch up.

Are fake downvotes prevented?

Making a comment disappear merely on accumulation of downvotes provides a ready incentive to abuse.

Having seen how quickly downvotes can make some comments invisible, I've wondered if some of the downvotes are fake, and even weaponized.

I would hope there is a mechanism to prevent a malicious poster from logging into 10 different sock puppet accounts and getting 10 votes. Perhaps an IP flooding module could throttle back several accounts posting in quick succession from a single cookie or IP.

Does anyone know if this is the case?

Help build the world's best encyclopedia of Liberty - the RonPaulWikiProject
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“The final test of a leader is that he leaves behind him in other men the conviction and will to carry on.”
-- Walter Lippmann

Unfortunately

I think they are all real member votes, But I also think that there are "gangs" that team up on a user just to cause malice. The opportunity to do this, in my opinion, should not be available at all.

An upvote is "Love", a downvote is "Hate", I can't explain this problem any simpler than that. I have been trying too for a long time.

If I disappear from a discussion please forgive me. My 24-7 business requires me to split mid-sentence to serve them. I am not ducking out, I will be back later to catch up.

A very good suggestion

Upvotes only is a very good suggestion, It would create an environment of "positive" support for good comments with no "negative" input to create animosity. As for a report button I think this could once again be used as a tool against each other with false reporting just to be mean. Twitter has a huge problem because of false reporting right now, it has become a very negative feature over there. Reporting has never been a problem before, just put the comment link in the mod box for review. I really hope this would be considered.

If I disappear from a discussion please forgive me. My 24-7 business requires me to split mid-sentence to serve them. I am not ducking out, I will be back later to catch up.

Report buttons are standard

Report buttons are standard on just about every large community. People can press them all they want, it doesn't matter. It's not public. All a report button should do is raise a flag for a moderator to check it out and make sure it's ok.

Freedom in our lifetime! - fiol.us

agreed

The problem over at Twitter is the program is set to auto suspend if 5 or more report you at one time. There are groups using it to censor opinions. You can appeal but they still leave you suspended for about a week. You are always found guilty no matter what. I really does make one afraid to state an honest opinion.

If I disappear from a discussion please forgive me. My 24-7 business requires me to split mid-sentence to serve them. I am not ducking out, I will be back later to catch up.

Granger doesn't deserve recognition, many others deserve

what she is getting... and so the whole DP is hamster wheeling their way to losing time and money to MSM.

if we learned anything from 07' there'd be Rand Paul graffiti courses, truck and car Rand Paul attachments, door to door pamphleteering, Rand Paul costumes and hell probably a Rand Paul blimp by now...

but instead were tired because all we can do is talk, talk about people that make us angry as if that wasn't their only purpose in the first place.

The Granger is an open term to reinforce any closing minds soas to keep us from building upon Rands fathers success, otherwise she would care more about this country than one on the opposite side of the planet.

I think it is about time to stop chipping in with words about netanyahus princess and start chipping in to buy Rand Paul some Rand Paul Running Shoes!

Whether you think you can or you can't, you're right. -Henry Ford

I understand why Granger was depressed

Virtually no one on this forum agreed with her posts, including me. However, everybody has an opinion, and that opinion usually changes with time. I don't hate anyone because they disagree with me. After all, I voted for John McCain in 2008, so who am I to judge?

We all want progress, but if you're on the wrong road, progress means doing an about-turn and walking back to the right road; in that case, the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive.

-C. S. Lewis

I dont understand this...

How does it benefit anyone here to push away those with different philosophies. I think the saying is "iron sharpens iron." It reminds me of a karate system where the guru and the students believe they are superior but they don't allow outside fighters into the dojo.

If you are losing your temper when dumb-dumbs say stupid things, then maybe its time to do some self examination: Is my partner correct? If not, then how does it serve me to feel threatened? If my partner has a valid point, then what is it and how can I show appreciation for the point.

Debate and discussion are wonderful learning tools. A frothy partner will go through all kinds of effort to teach you the error of your ways. Who else is going through that much trouble to teach you anything?

Especially in a forum like this, where I believed, we were pro individual liberty...shouldn't we have thick enough skin to tolerate verbal assaults and minds open enough to learn from our verbal sparring partners. It seems like a prerequisite.

The one thing I perceived about Granger.....

No matter how disagreeable she could be (she even called me an anti-semite once, astoundingly), I do not believe she was a plant, or mole. I do believe she was a Ron Paul supporter.

In other words, to get someone who can pose a contrary viewpoint, but one out of genuine disagreement, for better or worse, who is NOT a g-plant or a g-mole or SPLC-mole or someone trying Saul Alinsky methods to try to elicit a recorded online response to the detriment of the movement, is a good thing. It's a counterpoint.

One can always individually put her on block if she gets to be too much.

That said, someone mentioned below about a perception of Granger appearing to be depressed. I agree with that and I feel bad for her. It's hard to get through to someone suffering from that.

I ran a bulletin board in the

I ran a bulletin board in the 80's. I know what goes on. Here is my take:
I do not think Granger was any sort of a "plant".
I think Granger has her own ideas, and has become quite inflexible, lately, and is not willing to look clearly at other points of view.
I also think, LATELY, her posts became vague and almost unintelligible. I think something is wrong with her.
Do I think she should be BANNED? Nope. In this kind of place, unless there is much obscene profanity or personal attacks, people can be easily ignored if you do not like what they say. I should hope we never devolve to wanting to hear ideas we already believe in. Some called Granger names and made vicious personal attacks. I think THEY should have been banned. They were intolerant, mean at heart, and just plain wrong. I wrote to her on here a few times. When I saw her strange inflexibility and dogmatic positions, I finally just dropped it.
I had supported her in a project, once, and got a very nice note in the mail from her. She is not an "agent" nor a devil. In a place like this, the best way to "get back" at someone you disagree with is to ignore them and let the thread die. If you can educate, fine. But Granger was obviously (lately, for some reason) not listening to anyone.
I hope she figures out what is going on with her, healthwise, and goes back to being the opinionated, but open, concerned patriot that I know she is, at heart.

Granger represents many people we need to learn to talk to

What to do about the Granger??

What everyone should have done about the Granger already: take the opportunity to learn how to talk to a pro-Israel Christian, since there are plenty more "where she comes from" and most of us still need to learn how to make a reasonable, personable argument that will at least tempt someone like that to think about Israel and foreign policy in a different way than they have before.

Too many of us may not have tried talking with zionists, neo-cons, social-cons and others often enough to learn how to both talk and listen. There are plenty like Granger who say they stand for the constitution but haven't worked out logically what that really means in every last detail. Too many people give pat answers instead of learning to hear where the other person is coming from so you can speak exactly to what they truly care about in a way that will make sense to them.

Pat answers don't cut it, but listening and explaining things in a way that each individual person understands is how you'll be able to help build the liberty movement. People can tell when you don't care about them personally and don't really hear where they're coming from.

Although it quickly became a broad brush insult, the term "paulbot" originally was a label for people who would mechanically spit out the libertarian talking points or repetitive praise for Dr Paul without ever really interacting as a human being with the person/people that they were talking to/at.

If you would rather wear the "paulbot" title as a badge of honor thinking that it proves you must be right, rather than to learn how to make someone think about something they've never thought of before, you are doing more harm than good for the liberty movement. You should occasionally check your own behavior to see if you're acting like a jerk.

I've had to recently. I've had to realize that my housemates and other people avoid me because I've been a real jerk at times. I apologized to a couple of them for being an asshole when I rant and curse at the TV while watching CSPAN or the news and they have to hear me from their bedroom in the next room.

It's humbling but necessary to keep myself grounded in humanity, instead of being lost in a sterile world of disembodied ideas, facts and pure logic.

I needed to read this--

I have a friend who is afraid Islam is taking over America--

and I am just not plugged into that outlet myself.

I have ignored this friend--

but I am beginning to see that I need to learn to listen to what is really behind this person's concerns and fears--

because the topic keeps coming up, and I can't change the subject forever--

the friend is a racist--

makes fun of people with brown skins--

:/

Why on EARTH would I have a friend like this? Belongs to my church--

I think I need to learn to be more patient and less annoyed with my friend for being a racist--

maybe I can teach something--

anyway--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

My husband did this for me

which is why I am still here.

"Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern." ~~C.S. Lewis
Love won! Deliverance from Tyranny is on the way! Col. 2:13-15

Great post.

Great post.

I agree with what others said,

It's a forum, and all opinions should be allowed.

However, that doesn't mean people can be rude, insulting, bigots and call it a point of view. I did argue with Granger many times, but I haven't seen her bash anyone for their opinion. I'm also not online every single day, so I'm sure I miss a few things. Trolls can be annoying and most people would ban them for starting arguments no matter what side they are on.

Outside the scope of being a troll or just plain rude, it's up to the mods to decide if someone is taking away from the atmosphere this site wishes to represent here on the DP.

Sometimes you have to make hard decisions, just don't let the power consume you. Don't begin finding infractions at every turn and get overwhelmed because it seems like everyone is against you.

We will support the decisions of management, to disallow or allow users, as long as we remain here.

It is a forum,

It is a forum, not a marriage.

If one can not exhibit 'tolerance' here, how do you promote 'tolerance' there.

I have learned more from disagreements that I do from agreements. Disagreements cause me to pause and to think.

My groups include young, old, Liberty, neocons, and on the fence democrats. It includes well-off, poor and in between.

We agree and disagree, and then discuss and come up with reasons and solutions. Together we have grown. This is my r3VOLution.

When I wake the next morning, I am very happy that in the end, we are all in this together, instead of split as the ptb prefer.

'Tolerance' is a very good word, and a very good start.

"What if the American people learn the truth" - Ron Paul

SteveMT's picture

Like a "script,"Granger came in here with a prescripted agenda.

Sorry, but that's how I see it. That agenda spanned years and was to bait and switch, like a wolf in sheep's clothing. Make friends, get on everyone's good side, win trust, then strike like the Manchurian candidate or a sleeper cell would have done. She then proceeded to undermine Liberty and this website with her accumulated political capital. Reason and logic were not successful with helping her see what many of us still believe about Liberty. I would say that her leaving is all for the best, and I wish her well.

Whether it was purposeful or

Whether it was purposeful or just a deranged lunatic, this is exactly what happened.

Ventura 2012

SteveMT's picture

Like a conspiracy theory, this is one possible interpretation...

that fits what happened. Who knows at this point, but my previous negative interactions with her has put a negative spin on my take about this. She's not getting the benefit of the doubt from me; she went over to the dark side, IMO. Your also feeling similarly about what went down is a comfort to me that I'm still grounded in Liberty. thanks.

TwelveOhOne's picture

Her avatar in past months was a "troll doll"

This picture speaks more than the thousands of words that she spewed.

Prior to that, I contributed to a project and got something nice in the mail as a result. Then she changed. Was it always an act? Makes one wonder.

I love you. I'm sorry. Please forgive me. Thank you.
http://fija.org - Fully Informed Jury Association
http://jsjinc.net - Jin Shin Jyutsu (energy healing)

But on a side note, have you

But on a side note, have you all heard or seen this: http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-09-25/business/42374...

Funny, I've felt this with other websites too. For example, Business Insider is slowly stepping on the necks of dissidents. They implemented a more anti-anonymous friendly system just a few months ago and now they're letting the writers just shut down comments altogether. Soon comments will altogether be banned and that's when they lose my readership, as I can imagine many more.

Is the internet slowly being taken over like cable TV has been??? It's a scary thought but it's clearly happening. TPTB are not backing down from the "infowar" and we should never expect them too. Every time you think "we're winning" you should slap yourself in the face.

Anyway, my point is, the reason this website is one of the best is that it's a community effort and steps have been made to make it more fair with regards to what floats and what sinks. Sure there could be improvements, but overall this is one of the best websites out there and that's why I've always come back.

In order to keep this website one of the best, we need to be open minded and strive to keep things unbiased and pure because that is the true meaning of "liberty." We are all here for a reason, but not all of our reasons or causes are similar.

Anyhow, remember, freedom and freeDUMB sound the same but mean something entirely different. My idea of life and liberty may not resemble your idea of either, but if we both have the freedom to live our lives the way we want then we all succeed. And that goes for contributing to open matters of discussion regarding topics of liberty and freedom.

Take Care, stay liberated and remember there's a war on for your mind and it's not close to being won by anyone....

interesting link--

and, yes--

it is a battle; all of it.

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

Sometimes people grow apart.

I've had a few friends that I don't see any more. One in particular was my best fried for most all of my adult life yet we didn't remain the same. It got to the point where I couldn't enjoy his company any more.

These things happen. It just seems different on a forum like this I guess.

To me it seemed like she

To me it seemed like she spiraled into a state of depression. I actually tried to genuinely ask her about it once. Then again, most neo-con's seem depressed to me too (people spewing hatred generally give me that vibe).

Why are you lamenting the Granger?

The Granger is the only member who could make me lose it by her posts. Towards the end, her posts took on a foul neocon/ Israel worshiping flavor that made me nauseous. Michael, you should not be eating yourself up about kicking the Granger off the DP... You Did The Right Thing (Thank You).

Tomorrow will be my six year anniversary on the DP. The Granger is the only member who seriously made me want to close my account in all of that time. Why? Because, she always seemed to destroy any decent thread with her obnoxious comments. She seemed like a troll on steroids. I freely admit that I was one of the members who would "jump on the Pig Pile" and down vote every post that she made. I would shun her posts like a vampire shuns garlic. Some people are very predictable. The Granger was truly one of them.

If the Granger is allowed to return, then I will most likely leave the DP. This not a threat because my absence wouldn't be missed a bit. I would leave because the DP would have lost whatever meaning it originally had for me. It would just make me lose interest.

“Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty. The obedient must be slaves.”― Henry David Thoreau