32 votes

I'm at a loss about what to do about the Granger

After all, she's been here so long. User #408.

And let's face it, we're all here for one reason: We all supported Ron Paul for President. That is, and will always be, our forever bond - no matter where we go, or where we end up.

People are moving on their separate ways. Like dandelion seeds to the wind. I saw a guy wearing a t-shirt with a dinosaur on it, and the words, "All my friends are dead."

Sometimes I feel like that here. So many people have come through these doors at the DP. And then, they just disappear into the ether. But it was all they they ever were - parts of the ether. I never saw them, spoke with them, seen the idiosyncrasies of their movement or dress. No physical representation, aside from what I've crafted in my mind.

- - - - -
Remember '07? That will always be the highlight for me, because it was an original creation. So many things unfolded spontaneously, and beautifully. The Ron Paul Blimp remains a stellar achievement of that era. The Rudy Giuliani Game Changer.

Completely spontaneous. The Granger was there for '07.

2012 was so much more scripted. A template had been laid, and had to be followed. Everyone expected it. They even expected the blimp to be back. That's just suffocating.

Having to follow a script, I mean. Boring. Generally.

- - - -

The Daily Paul, also is in unchartered water. We have the scripts here - scripts of how we behave. It is boring. Predictable.

I'm done fighting with people. Nothing personal. Its just that 8 years of it takes its toll. I'm tired.

I don't want to come in here and see someone in a rage about their pet topic, mowing people down. I don't like seeing people reflexively downvoting people, just because of who they are. Then again, I was reminded (by The Granger) that I jumped on top of the pig pile at the end as well.

And so I did. Because I'm sick of the dogma.

I feel like I should ask her if she wants to come back and explain what happened. Because I don't get it. Somebody joked that the Granger was the only person ever to go from Ron Paul to being a neo-con.

I want to know what happened.

Granger, do you want to tell us?

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I haven't been able to read on the DP as much lately.

How was the Granger a neocon? All I remember seeing was her saying she didn't think everything was Israel's fault.

Granger is a Catholic and as such, I don't think she can ever see the 'whole picture'. However, I truly don't understand people like yourself who would want to shut out viewpoints that don't match your own. I know where I stand and will defend my faith, but I don't wish to silence others' points of view.

Christians should not be warmongers! http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance87.html

ecorob's picture

The Doc says...

eliminate negativity from your life.

I got a second opinion. The 2nd opinion was to eliminate negativity from my life.

I am happier for it. I don't miss her. I respect her opinion even though I don't agree with it. I still know where my battles lie without her trying to convince me to change my mind.

She has been given FAR TOO MUCH time here. Let her go. Just my humble opinion.

its 'cos I owe ya, my young friend...
Rockin' the FREE world in Tennessee since 1957!
9/11 Truth.

I appreciated a different point of view--even if it only served

to make my beliefs more steadfast. I think Granger was sincere, even when she was wrong. I can talk to a sincere person who disagrees with me any day. A true 'troll' is kinda like a mercenary--no sincerely held beliefs of their own, merely sent in to do damage. I don't think that was the Granger.

Christians should not be warmongers! http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance87.html

Granger's principle problem

Granger's principle problem was not her ridiculous support for the apartheid state of Israel, but her vicious accusations of "anti-Semitism" or "Jew hatred" toward anyone who disagreed with her. It is way past time for people to stand up to bullies who use the "anti-Semite" card without any legitimate proof of "anti-Semitism."

What you...

described was my main issue with Granger. While I totally could NOT understand her views on Israel, I did not have an issue with her because we disagreed.

What I did take issue with was the predictable smears of "anti-semite" when Israel gets criticized. When discussing Israel, I always feel like I'm in the twilight zone. I truly do not understand why people can't spot a leech when they see one.


Resented Granger or Anybody, Always leads To Feeling Guilt

Do you feel guilt? Did you resent the Granger, for any reason. if so, then let the guilt or anger go and then you will see clearly what to do..


Thanks for this. Like Gamaliel in Scripture said...

Act 5:38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
Act 5:39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

Christians should not be warmongers! http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance87.html

fireant's picture

Controversy Creates Hits.

My marketing days were drawing to a close as the internet started growing, so I can't speak with specific knowledge, but the principle remains the same, and if I understand site business models, hits is the goal. So from a dry business perspective, Granger was good for this site.
From an intellectual perspective, it was refreshing to see a counterbalance to the usual drone of "Jews cause all the world's problems".

Undo what Wilson did

many of *us* who have . . .

questioned the policies of the nation that shall not be mentioned--

respect Jews and the Jewish religion--

the idea that the religion is the nation is--


Well, if the same thing were to be said about America and America's demise--

and America's corruption--

is it the fault of Christians?

Interesting thing to contemplate, since I am one of those (Christians)--

I also have Jewish relatives, but I question the treatment of others by that nation that shall not be named.

However, I have no illusions about any other nation as well. Let's face it; the nations of the world are generally corrupt--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

Michael, it's your site...you

Michael, it's your site...you are the mayor here. You can ban anyone you see fit for banning. And guess what? Life will go on.

I personally don't know why she was banned. I've ran into people on here who were crude, rude, and down right mean. I've never got that from Granger. I did not agree with her but if I banned everyone from my life that I didn't agree with I would be very lonely...I wouldn't be married either.

Anyway. I just come here for some perspective. You can ban who ever you want for what ever reason. It's your town, do as you wish. But you certainly don't need to justify it to any of us.

Pretty tough

So many personalities, such individualism, such passion, such devotion to ideals, yet at the same time such lack of respect and courtesy for each other. I think it is the nature of the beast, it is politics.

In politics everything comes into play, faith, economics, family, occupation, self preservation, health, these all combine to put one in a constant state of self defense. As we know it is hard to be nice and cordial when in a self defense situation.

It takes great strength to debate about such serious matters and still remain calm and collected. Some have this strength and some do not, this is individualism. So I have to ask, is the DP about individualism and all that goes with it?

I think so, I think it is what brought us here and why we keep coming back. I also think that even though we lash out at each other we need each other. Our subconscious keeps drawing us back to this very unique place created by Mr Nystrom.

Honestly, I have learned volumes from the seemingly endless flame wars that happen here. It is like reading two different books from two different authors that have opposing views about the same subject. Opposing views are important and needed.

The information and knowledge presented from both sides becomes fascinating and very in depth as the try to prove each other wrong. But at some point passion and tempers will flare. Unfortunately the voting feature helps to aggravate this situation greatly.

But back to Granger, I think her heart is in the right place but like us all she is an individual with her own personal issues to deal with. She was one of the few that took time out of her debates to come and welcome me back recently, so her heart is into the DP even if at times her temper flares.

I know it is hard to do sometimes, but we should all try to have integrity and respect one another, If you disagree with someone engage in the debate to make it more interesting rather than poking them in the back with the voting feature. This only aggravates a debate into an explosion.

I think everyone of us including Mr Nystrom has let our personal problems affect our actions on this board without meaning too. We leave or get banned and then realize we need each other and come back.

In the end human compassion, respect, patience, understanding and forgiveness should be the over all example set by everyone here, The DP should set the bar for love of fellow man, like it or not we need each other and we all know this.

Thank you Michael for displaying the strongest example of these qualities for so many years. Follow your heart and those that don't like it can take a hike.

If I disappear from a discussion please forgive me. My 24-7 business requires me to split mid-sentence to serve them. I am not ducking out, I will be back later to catch up.


I'm glad she's gone.

NOTE: I am not advocating violence in any way. The content of the post is for intellectual, theoretical, and philosophical discussion. FEDS, please don't come to my house.

I thought we advocate the free market?

I will not force anyone to come back. If Granger doesn't want to come back then I don't think (IMO) we should do anything about it. This isn't too big to fail. Let someone else come in and fill whatever void you think may be left with the exiting of Granger. Granger was the only person to make me want to find the block button. I never did block granger because I reminded myself that I could always just skip Granger's posts. My response is basically null because I don't care either way.

"Patriotism is more closely linked to dissent than it is to conformity and a blind desire for safety and security." - Dr. Ron Paul

As user 51502 (crazy fool squared?)...

I may be too "young" and dumb for an opinion, but I see Granger as a DP family member/elder... I was taught to respect my "elders"... sure, my elderly family members may crap their pants and babble on sometimes, but what are ya going to do except love them for who they are? Besides, you can learn lots from an "elderly" family member (and should), even if you never agree with a single word they say.

Honestly, I have no clue what she has done, but whatever happens I wish the Granger nothing but the best!


Thanks...spit iced tea on my keyboard over this post...

Why are you taking the Granger on as your responsibility?

When did you become responsible for her actions?
Sometimes people need to be cut. We are living through extremely trying times and do we really need people around us who raise such negative feelings?
I've read what you wrote several times and I can't help but feel there's meloncholy in it, a kind of despondancy I believe it's unwarranted. You have done nothing other than offer Ron Paul supporters a place to gather and commune about all sorts of things. Don't you know what a gift the Daily Paul is to so many of us?
I came to the table rather late, only discovering Ron Paul a couple of years ago. I look at myself now and can't believe I skipped over him in '07. And because of your website, I am exposed to so much more than I would be on the other sites I frequent.
It's not your job to save Granger or anyone else for that matter. Granger is happy where she is now, exploring her new endeavor. Be happy for her.

If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.
James Madison

The only person I EVER blocked was that poster.

Like. EVER. You have to be pants on head retarded to be specifically blocked by me. That means I go look for options on the Daily Paul I never visit.

I have to go to my bug out bag, grab a light, begin trying to traverse places on this site only haunted by NSA spooks and what I would personally consider the "deep web".

Seriously whoever it was, fuck 'em. They are nothing but drama.

I tried blocking her

and then huge sections of a given thread would disappear making them unreadable. It's like you own the movie theater, and we're all coming to watch the shows, discuss them and to buy things from the concession stand. We're all here to share the experience, but there would be Granger with her ten gallon hat wrapped in Christmas lights wandering from one movie to the next, talking loudly, spoiling the plot lines etc etc. It becomes hard to ignore.

You have a big heart Michael that is obvious, but if you are longing for a particular time of the past, trying to capture a feeling of when things were new and exciting by holding onto one thing, in this case member #408, that in itself creates a sense of predictability. It shuts the door to new ideas and prospects.

I always disliked the "pecking order" comments, where someone would get shouted down because they were a "noob". If the person is trolling or just did not a fit with the free-thinking ideals of the Liberty movement it would become self evident based on the content of what they were saying, not based on their member date.

I don't know what Granger's deal is. When I noticed her early on, I gave her some respect for putting in the time to attend GOP meetings and becoming a delegate and whatever, but how far does that cred go? I come here for news and insight that is as close to being unfiltered as possible. You, being the creator of this site as well as the gardener are doing a great job (mods also). If Granger comes back, what will it be like? Who knows...but if it's like the height of her breakdown it will be...essentially...predictable.


Since you're asking for opinions.
I personally never cared what people contributed. I would find the gems and leave the trash.

What really turned me off is the ego that somehow gets manifested here. Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of self confidence too. Ask my wife, she hates it when I flex in the mirror...lol

It's when the forum focus goes from topics of discussion surrounding philosophy, history, current events, money etc... To a spotlight on that blogger. What makes it worse is when the blogger shines the light on themselves attempting to become the center of attention.

Usually titling their posts by using their name in the 3rd person. "Should the Granger Stay? " or " Skippy D's take on the holocaust "

These are people that hurt the site and take away from what makes it great. These are people that are usurping and hijacking this awesome place for their own self serving interest and attention seeking.

That is why you have moderation. To drown that out. I recall everyone piling on Legalize Liberty which was terrible, but I think in the end Tom realized he may have brought much of that on himself. Same goes for Granger, Fishy, Skippy, etc.... These are always the ones to get banned. In Toms case he was wise enough to diffuse the situation.

On the specific topic of Granger, I really think everyone has something good to contribute. But if it were up to me I would say goodbye to Granger. Its healthy for people to disagree and usually how we learn but in the case of Granger I think you'll find more than disagreement.

Granger came across as a contrarian on almost every subject. It was not a discussion or difference in a opinion. It was very contrived to create a dissension and divide people while effectively placing focus on herself and feeding the ego. This became more and more evident as time went on.

You really don't need people like this here Michael. They are the source of the cancer.

Frankly, I could do without her.

I think your energy would be better focused on re branding, strengthening or upgrading. Daily Paul is like a business. What worked yesterday may not apply today. Keep your principles and foundation but grow with the changes.

Stay above this Michael...Ron Paul pulled you aside at one time and talked to you after the C4L issue and gave you some sound advice. That advice was not just for that subject, he was giving you something special. Some wisdom and guidance.

Its going to work out, you're a stud!


For Freedom!
The World is my country, all mankind is my brethren, to do good is my religion.

But Dexter, your comment sounds so much like what the

Communist government said when trying to 'purge' the nation of anyone who dissented. I am truly not trying to be ugly, but it's what I thought of when I read it.

If you think I am wrong in my reasoning, could you let me know why?

Christians should not be warmongers! http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance87.html

The disconnect with that is The Daily Paul is not a government

nor is it cult , a religion, or a Facebook page for dominant poster.
Somehow there is this idea out there that its a free for all.

If that is to be allowed without moderation as you inadvertently suggested, the more dominant, agenda driven, consensus building posters that have an inordinate amount of time on their hands will drown out the forum and stifle anything constructive by intimidating or shutting down other users.

In the case of the person of subject, it was a non stop self promotion. She thrived off the division and perpetuated it distracting from real issues that had merit and were relevant to the tenants of this site.

Miss applying my statement to communism is folly, since I can do the same in reverse.
example (democracy) How about we take a vote? do you think she will be coming back?

Or (Republic) lets just rule by law. Do you think she will be back?

The point is , it doesn't apply.

BTW, you're beautiful! even if you try to be ugly ;-)

For Freedom!
The World is my country, all mankind is my brethren, to do good is my religion.

Is this the Daily Granger or the Daily Paul?

haha just kidding, someone was going to say it eventually.

Think about this, Michael: Would you invite

fishyculture, skippy d, Cirocco, and my personal favorite, BigT back? Seriously, think about that before you come to any decision about The Granger.

You already know my feelings about Granger, as I recently commented: http://www.dailypaul.com/comment/3210107 and http://www.dailypaul.com/comment/3210311

Perhaps it would be better if you communicated with her one on one, not here, not now. You did mention that you were in email communication with her. Why not ask her what's going on in an email? Personally, I think it would be a mistake to do that in an open forum. Get your answers, if she is willing to answer you privately, and think about fishy, skippy, Cirocco, and BigT and come to your own conclusions.

With all due respect, I'm not telling you what to do. Just offering my thoughts, since you asked.

“It is the food which you furnish to your mind that determines the whole character of your life.”
―Emmet Fox

I miss all those people--

I never see the posts where people get kicked off--!

which is fine with me . . .

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

TwelveOhOne's picture

Agree, (((((Nonna)))))

That dinosaur t-shirt is almost accurate; I still feel that Michael killed one of my friends, fishyculture. I still communicate with her via email but I miss her insights and random references, here. I post and comment a lot less and am reluctant to make new friends of the same depth as they might disappear "for no reason", or at least with significantly fewer violations of the posting rules than Granger.

When I saw the recent 432 post, I thought perhaps it was fishy's old post that first exposed me to the idea, but it was something new.

My post-concussive brain may never return to its original function. Similarly, this site may never be what it once was - for Michael, or for me.

I love you. I'm sorry. Please forgive me. Thank you.
http://fija.org - Fully Informed Jury Association
http://jsjinc.net - Jin Shin Jyutsu (energy healing)

Yeah, I remember being so disappointed when I saw that

skippy d was gone. I left for a few days only to come back and find him/her banned.

Christians should not be warmongers! http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance87.html


BigT was my personal favorite as well.

Sadly, I had forgotten about him until you brought him up.

NOTE: I am not advocating violence in any way. The content of the post is for intellectual, theoretical, and philosophical discussion. FEDS, please don't come to my house.

Good ridance

No loss she was banned by most everyone anyway.