32 votes

I'm at a loss about what to do about the Granger

After all, she's been here so long. User #408.

And let's face it, we're all here for one reason: We all supported Ron Paul for President. That is, and will always be, our forever bond - no matter where we go, or where we end up.

People are moving on their separate ways. Like dandelion seeds to the wind. I saw a guy wearing a t-shirt with a dinosaur on it, and the words, "All my friends are dead."

Sometimes I feel like that here. So many people have come through these doors at the DP. And then, they just disappear into the ether. But it was all they they ever were - parts of the ether. I never saw them, spoke with them, seen the idiosyncrasies of their movement or dress. No physical representation, aside from what I've crafted in my mind.

- - - - -
Remember '07? That will always be the highlight for me, because it was an original creation. So many things unfolded spontaneously, and beautifully. The Ron Paul Blimp remains a stellar achievement of that era. The Rudy Giuliani Game Changer.

Completely spontaneous. The Granger was there for '07.

2012 was so much more scripted. A template had been laid, and had to be followed. Everyone expected it. They even expected the blimp to be back. That's just suffocating.

Having to follow a script, I mean. Boring. Generally.

- - - -

The Daily Paul, also is in unchartered water. We have the scripts here - scripts of how we behave. It is boring. Predictable.

I'm done fighting with people. Nothing personal. Its just that 8 years of it takes its toll. I'm tired.

I don't want to come in here and see someone in a rage about their pet topic, mowing people down. I don't like seeing people reflexively downvoting people, just because of who they are. Then again, I was reminded (by The Granger) that I jumped on top of the pig pile at the end as well.

And so I did. Because I'm sick of the dogma.

I feel like I should ask her if she wants to come back and explain what happened. Because I don't get it. Somebody joked that the Granger was the only person ever to go from Ron Paul to being a neo-con.

I want to know what happened.

Granger, do you want to tell us?

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Women are like busses...

There's no point in chasing them when they pull away.

(I don't think you need to do anything. We were able to deal with her 5 or 6 years ago hearing about how Ralph Nader walked on water and other dubious "truths." We'll deal with her when she comes back or shows up in person.)

To carpavel below: Good move on the farming. I hope you have been able to transition to an honest career too.

Final comment to Michael: My mother-in-law says, "An intelligent person is never bored." Nothing is scripted for a creative thinking person. I don't feel scripted. I feel that lot's of people have made some progress in their thinking, and a lot of people have moved on from the Daily Paul. We should definitely get together in meat space. (Yes, these are disjointed random thoughts---you can put it together.)

True loss

Caveat: I dislike forum funerals

Her presence is missed. She has an ability to make one step back & think to themselves "hmm.. I missed that venue of thought while integrating a belief structure in my spirit"

I personally revered her continuous downvotes (I did not contribute) & found them equally as valuable as upvotes... But then again, I do not hold much value in the voting game because the theory behind it fails. When one person brings ideas to the table that can make you question the method at which you have reached your conclusion, the tendency for a roving troll mob mentality exists in no different form than the same script that kept Dr. Paul out of the WH.(IMHO)

I do not contribute much but read often & have wondered why is it? Because I am a coward, dumb, inarticulate, etc?

I have discovered why: Just a couple weeks ago I read a quote from another DP'er (apologies, I do not remember who) that changed much of my life & how I look at things. It pertained to a monk advising to stop looking for truth, and simply fail to cherish opinion. The 'truth' may be different at any given time & from any given perspective.

It is the dialogue of opinions of those who may hold conflicting truths that has allowed the education & growth of a remnant to eagerly desire liberty & peace.

Where the dialogue stops, growth stops.

Whether or not Granger went from being a 'kooky RP bot' to a neocon is still opinion. In my opinion, I will miss the opportunity that Granger granted by cleverly inserting insight that I had overlooked.

I try not to cherish opinion, however, I value the opportunity to reflect upon it. I will miss the reflections that Granger granted me over the years.

You own it, you call it, but

now that all discussion of the Tribe, AIPAC, or any discussion about certain people and events has been banned, there would be no reason for her to return. Mission accomplished!

With that said, thank you for allowing us to be a part of this site.


In times of need, friends need friends.

Of course there may be times to cut a thread, perhaps they were never friends to begin with. However, Granger is a friend.

Tired, exhausted, overwhelmed, it is good to take a rest from time to time. Once rejuvenated, things become much clearer.

And if not Granger, who do we reach out to? The choir?

I have learned much from Granger.

"What if the American people learn the truth" - Ron Paul

I agree,

We should be careful on who we choose to alienate. I have had a few unpopular posts in this site myself but I'm thankful that I have this place to share honestly. People may disagree with me strongly but that's ok. I want to hear other opinions. That's how I learn.

I didn't agree too often with the Granger but I also didn't find her to be as offensive as other people feel that she was. I personally don't prefer banishment or even blocking of people who I disagree with as long as they don't resort to verbal attacks.

That all being said, this is your site Michael. We appreciate being a part of it, but at the end of the day, you get to call the shots.

My two cents anyway.

Ps. Please forgive any typos. Wrote this post from my phone.

In the end, it is your property to do as you will...

Once the Granger went off the deep end I stopped posting anywhere near her posts as anyone that disagreed was labeled and an argument ensued. The posting guidelines seemed to be violated each time as anyone who simply disagreed with her was quickly responded to in a vile and hate filled manner. This violated the sites own posting guidelines:

No profane, disrespectful or divisive language
Do not post racist, sexist, pornographic or otherwise obscene materials
Do not engage in flame wars, personal attacks on other members, incite or encourage violence, post spam or advertisements.
No Assholes™

I have never seen a user call so many people haters, racists, and the like for simply disagreeing. I do not know Granger, nor do I care to simply because of the divisiveness, and was amazed that for so long the vile nature of attacks against anyone that disagreed was allowed to continue. Again, it falls back on you Michael. If you want this type of person so apt to attack others back it is your choice, but I do remember so many others that were removed without remorse for much less.

I am like you in a sense that I do not care about the Israel argument, but each time I read the posts and saw others being attacked for expressing a differing opinion I wondered how long it would be allowed to continue. While I could understand if the posts were in the least bit racist, I could not find any posts that would deserve the responses I read, it was almost as if the SPLC had sent a poster here to control the conversation and to ensure that only one opinion reigned under the guise of anti Jewish control, not much unlike the media so often is guilty of. I do remember a time years ago when the posts made by the Granger was sensible, but of late it appeared that the account had been hijacked or the person on the other end was unstable and irrational, but even those that find their own God do not deserve to come in using religion to attack others that simply disagree.

So all in all it is your call, but I only ask that you pay close attention to how each and every post is swayed to those that disagree as anti Semites, because in 2016 you can rest assured this will be used to label all of us, the same as the media works with the left to scare the public for any and all Liberty based sites, and uses this material in a twisted manner to show that everyone here is racist. I may be completely wrong and only sharing my opinion, but the recent comments made by Reid on the floor certainly look to be the setup for this type of political attack, and I have always found the DP a place to be able to discuss anything, without reading lies and accusations of that nature.

I have said it before, I hope the Granger gets help, as it was my opinion that a severe mental issue had occurred and wish her only the best, but the reality is a liability is a liability in the end.

Always remember:
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." ~ Samuel Adams
If they hate us for our freedom, they must LOVE us now....

Stay IRATE, remain TIRELESS, an

Why not just follow the rules?

That set of rules is a good set, particularly in regards to how we discuss what some people consider sacred, unmentionable ground. I'm surprised how a site owner can overlook obvious violations of these rules while words like asshole, punk, fuck you and other overtly flaming language is flung at people like a handful of Skittles with no reprimand. There is a pattern here, because the vile and vicious language comes as a rule from the defenders of The Country That Cannot Be Named (Unless You Live There.)

Humans do this as a last resort when they know their argument is weak. It's the famous ad hominem attack on the person instead of the message. And it's very effective.

I speak from experience of for 15 years owning a similar online community of around half the daily attendence of the DP, and that's nothing to sneeze at. I'm firm in enforcing the rules of no flaming, no attacks, and no divisive language. Some don't like it, but most do. A privately owned forum is not a street corner where you can throw insults just to be intentionally offensive.

Wouldn't it be an interesting turn of events if some country were to send disinformation agents, trolls with agendas, into an America-first forum, the biggest one, with the intent to water down, undermine, and subvert its intended purpose? What if, upon finding insufficient traction, it was decided to create some additional drama by withdrawing the agent with the largest post count amid vicious accusations it being a racist hate group just to see if the site owner's sentiments can be manipulated? I wonder if this would be successful?

People must be made aware of subversive threats from other countries, but this can be thwarted through several tried and proven methods, if you want to keep them from gaining this awareness.

Agents argue, and when they sense they're losing ground, switch to vile name calling and vicious insults. It's all the better if the site owner gives them a free "religion" pass for repeatedly and openly violating site rules for civility.

That being insufficient, more dramatic methods are available.

Of course, once a line of inquiry is highjacked and destroyed, and the questioners lose their focus, the attacks-in-the-name-of-self-defense can subside, and the level of stress allowed to return to its previous low. Those more susceptible to this manufactured stress then adjust site policy to keep the peace by favoring the vile and vicious party's desire to Never Allow Criticism Of Their Country's Openly Stated Policies of Subversion. Everyone breaths a sigh of relief.

If the site owner would just enforce his own rules, this place would be a lot nicer place, complex discussions would flourish, and there would be no need to mold policy around certain persons.

Michael, now that you've shown you can be manipulated, there will be no end to the pressure to mold the DP into a different image than you originally intended.

In my mind, the ultimate ownership and direction of the DP is still undetermined.

Who was it that said, "If you want to know who ultimately owns you, find out who you can't criticize?"

Help build the world's best encyclopedia of Liberty - the RonPaulWikiProject
“The final test of a leader is that he leaves behind him in other men the conviction and will to carry on.”
-- Walter Lippmann


How did you get the trademark on assholes?

For Freedom!
The World is my country, all mankind is my brethren, to do good is my religion.

Well ...

You have recently put Jew threads out of bounds.

That seemed to be her obsession ... mine as well.

So ... now that we can move on and grow ...

Let her stay.

Since you value my input beyond all others, I am sure you will make the right choice.

God Bless.

The Granger was able to get people to think.

The Granger was able to get people to think. She posed a viewpoint completely different from the usual DP herd (yes, we have herd mentality here too at times), and as a result, often many DP people would get their panties in a twist over it. The Granger was not afraid to go against the grain here, and I always respected that, even if I didn't agree with the position, ex. Syria. Sometimes she made some points I do agree with, or came up with something that challenged my own opinion, like, the fact that the Syrian FSA rebels were originally Syrian military that disobeyed orders to fire on their own citizens. THAT one made me think, and challenged me on my previously held conclusions. That is a good thing folks. We need more of that here.

The Granger had stalkers. People who would follow her every post just to down-vote it immediately. Michael, you noted something to this effect in your post too, and I have posted on this as well before. It's stalking, and it's wrong.

I have at times gone against the grain here as well, but the difference between The Granger and I is she can take it, and then dish it right back out with equal or greater acrimony. I can't. I just don't have it in me to lash back out at people who post f'd up replies to something I said anymore. I try to just politely point it out because It literally feels like chest pains, and I just can't allow myself to get that worked up. It physically affects me, my sleep, my ability to concentrate at work, etc. Vomiting blood sucks!

Not everyone here is a Libertarian. I'm not, (I prefer Constitutionalist). The Granger isn't. There are Paleo-Conservatives, and Classical Liberals, as well as others. I believe that is a good thing. It makes this site more well rounded. (I don't like the word "diverse", because it means "to divide" and is usually used in the context of race.)

The bad part though is that increasingly, many DP'ers act belligerent to one another, attack, use snide remarks at fellow DP'ers with intent to inflame tensions, if a person says something that does not fall perfectly within their version of libertarian dogma, (I think this is more of an internet culture thing, than a DP thing). I say it's OK to have differing views. That should not spark some lashing scathing snide remarks. The Granger was no stranger to both the giving and receiving end of this. I have certainly done my share of bashing groups in my past posts, and I have tried to tone that down, and I remember there was one pro-occupy person I kept getting into it with. I tried hard to change my tone towards that person (can't remember name) but the individual was very disruptive, and eventually left, and I think that was for the better.

The question is, did The Granger become a disruptive influence? Or, was she constantly being cornered, attacked, eviscerated, and feeling trapped, and just reacting defensively to everyone bashing her? Maybe a little of both, I don't know. There are times I wanted to defend her, but I couldn't because I didn't agree with the position. Maybe I could have done more, I don't know. Defending The Granger is just asking to get freaking trounced on here, and if I don't agree with the position, then is it really worth the headache? Often she would make her own bed of nails.

We used to be about trying to reason with neocons and bring them closer to the ideas of liberty, a long time ago. The beatings we took from them at the conventions and in the MSM changed that, and I don't think we can go back. I accept as truth that we are in a state of cold civil war in America now. Many people say "Peace", and that is good, but I think we should prepare for things to get even uglier.

If the characterization that "Granger went back to being neocon" is true, then is that a failure on her part, or a failure on ours? I do not believe she was a paid shill for Israel. I don't think that's realistic given the amount of years invested here. Maybe we should ask ourselves, "Could I have reacted to her posts with more logic and reason instead of emotional arguments? If yes, could it have affected the outcome more favorably?" I know many tried, and I could see the frustration coming out in their posts. It's not easy. Ultimately people made enemies with each other. She's been gone a month and people still bash her in their posts. The fact that you created this thread Michael says a lot to the impact she had here. That's not something that can just be easily tossed aside.

After the end, The Granger said some awful things about us, You Michael, and the DP after she left. She was spot on regarding one criticism about us though - This whole "Israel" thing has gotten completely out of hand. Michael, you made a recent new rule that we shouldn't post about Israel if we aren't from there, lol! I hope it works, because if there is ever one issue or one topic that will effectively get this website slammed by neo-progressives and neocons as "racist, anti-semitic, blah blah" It's that single issue right there, and it is the one that made her go.

I respectfully implore my fellow DP'ers to stop it. It doesn't just make you look bad, it makes us look bad, because most other people who are not aligned with us will collectively view all DP'ers as anti-semitic racists when you spout this "Jews this, Jews that" crap. Please stop.

I really think that's what made The Granger go away. She said as much. The solution is within us - how do we choose to conduct ourselves going forward? Do we start to treat each other and other peoples with respect in our posts? Or do we continue bashing each other and other groups with snide remarks because someone said something you do not agree with? "Who cares? I'm just some anonymous screen name and I don't have to worry about someone showing up on my doorstep with a gun in my face if I intentionally try to inflame others for kicks." That seems to be the modus operandi of some, at times. Maybe if we treated each other better, people would not feel like they have no choice but to leave.

I think The Granger already said why she left. The things she said about us on some other website, (Redstate? unsure, but it's posted here on the DP somewhere) were horrible. Rather than look at her with hate and derision, I hope people can instead look within themselves to see what we can do different going forward, that will keep future people from leaving, and continue bringing new members!

I really love the Daily Paul, and if it ever got demonized It would affect me a lot. If it ever went away, it would be life changing for me, in a gut-wrenching kind of way.

That's my 2 cents Michael. I wouldn't worry too much about trying to get her to come back. If we do good job of getting our house in order, (It's your house, but we all have a part in keeping it clean), maybe she will want to come back, and who knows, maybe bring people with who are interested in the ideas of liberty too. Sorry for being long winded man. I been thinking about this a lot too.

[Wherever you go Granger, Peace be with you, but prepare for war. I hope you are on my side, cause you have much power. You get people to think and consider other positions. Like me (when I'm drinking), you lack tact at times though, hehehe :) Good luck!]

I tangled with the Granger a

I tangled with the Granger a few times, in a spirited but good natured way. She's a little too tight with the establishment for my taste, much as Rand is for many of the people here. But I never doubted her sincerity. It is so easy to make judgements here in space, where theory SHOULD BE our reality. But in the real world, we watch day by day, moment by moment, the destruction of our country. What the hell do I do, I ask myself daily. I think in response to the Granger's own self questioning, she chose to try to work from within, much like the famed fellow travelers who made the "long walk through the system." It is unfortunate that so many here would judge those actions traitorous, particularly when so many of those same people do nothing.

I am still here ...

Just don't tangle much anymore ... busy working on my farm project in NH. I owe lots to the DP.
- Blessings

Patriot News
Stand up For your Civil Rights

Michael, I just don't get it

The Granger posted obsessively on the DP - she was on what seemed like 24/7. She hasn't posted for weeks so that should tell you that something effected her so strongly that she changed from her normal habits of DP contact. Honestly, if someone's comments on here made her feel this way, she just needs to grow a thicker skin. We're random people on the internet - you can't take insults to heart or let an argument over the internet effect you.

My opinion is this: You never publicly offended her, there's no reason for you to offer apology or try to invite her back. She's more than welcome to start posting whenever she wants.

Let go

A wise man once said, when you come to the last page, CLOSE THE BOOK.

Those are Uncle Wu's immortal words from famous Herbie Lovebug movie. In my personal life many years ago, I did not follow it & regretted my mistake the hard way. It was of course a context from personal life/relationships...far too different than the situation here. But the general sentiment is all the same.

Immoral funding of Military Industrial Complex by Federal Reserve and US taxation system must stop!!!! End illegal/unconstitutional wars! Preserve US currency!

Great wisdom


For Freedom!
The World is my country, all mankind is my brethren, to do good is my religion.

Yep. Was Granger a truth

Yep. Was Granger a truth seeker or a troll? I give her the benefit of the doubt. She's just wandering down a wrong path.

Someday she may discover her error and want to return here. Until then, let her wander. She has to discover the truth herself. Goodness knows enough of us tried unsuccessfully to point her back in the right direction.

I must be willing to give up what I am in order to become what I will be. Albert Einstein

{*{*{*{ My fancy pancy two cents }*}*}*}

hahaha...just felt like repeating a fancy subject line like I use to when I wanted to stress my point.

Anyway, my two cents on things would be... I liked The Granger back in 2007 and always felt in sync with her posts. The Granger of 2012..not so much. Seems to me she grew differently than I did. That being said, while I didn't agree with her very much anymore I still liked the fact that she posted. It gave me something to think about...something to be mad at...practice on my debating skills..and hell...simply something to even "feel" about.

It's a sad day when you let someone's differing opinion or beliefs stifle your own because you are too busy knocking them.

I say..let her back if you want. Let her come back if she wants. The wonderful thing about that is anyone who doesn't like her can just ignore her posts and be an adult. Those that want to read her posts can.

If folks here are that weak that they can't cope with differing opinions they really should re-evaluate what they believe about the 1st amendment and even the point of Liberty in it's entirety. And they also may want to pick a much less controversial movement to be a part of since we're always going to be "the tinfoil hats" of our day.

Again, just my two cents.
Much Luv & Respect...
Jan (oh and Manystrom...until the day you close the site you'll be stuck with me. I am not really a "move on" kinda gal....hahahahaha)


Your two cents look like they got a shaky starry Granger hug.

The person called "Granger"

was never a Ron Paul supporter. The person was never anything but a paid Israeli shill, as Israel makes no secret that they have literally thousands of them all over the Internet. The person was so ridiculous, so transparent, and such a fraud, that, frankly, it's hard to understand why anyone would have read anything the person said. The person was so ineffective and useless that they were likely moved on to troll another website. Good riddance to this pathetic person who wasted so much Daily Paul space!

Foolish and unfounded accusations.

There's no reason I should believe she's paid to write. From what I've gathered, her allegiance to Israel is religiously based. Just like a neo-con. Having staunch opposing views doesn't make you some sort of spy with an agenda to infiltrate.

Honestly, I personally just

Honestly, I personally just skip over or ignore anything the granger says. Too many times reading such pessimistic and cynical posts from her too many. The only person on here I can say I actively avoid.

It's one thing when your sharing your opinion and another when you're constantly a Debbie downer.

So excuse me for saying this but if she can't find it in her to not share her ever present negativity I personally wouldn't welcome her back.

Homeland security statement: patriotism is now considered terrorism.
I love www.isidewith.com shared it with everyone I know. If anything they realize its not just a red and blue idiot running for reelection.

It was the only poster I blocked.

Nice feature.

Leges sine moribus vanae

Me too...

...she was one of two people I blocked in the last 5+ years.

I'd rather have a bottle in front o' me than a frontal lobotomy

'07 - peace gold love...

Was thinking of doing a short piece about the DP becoming self-aware and posting its own threads - member 07 and its heartbeat-reminiscent posting history.

07 - the number of God, isn't it? http://www.dailypaul.com/user/7

7x13,000 = 91,000 love bullets purchased by the NSA. Fitting and synchronistically unprobable.

Chris Indeedski!

Daily Paul cured my abibliophobia.

Michael Nystrom's picture

I would like to read that piece

And then I would like to see it come true.

What would it, in fact, mean for the DP to become self aware? Is such a thing possible?

(For some on here, no, I don't think so).

Its your...

Its your sandbox Micheal. All I can say is that we all often need to take a deep breath to calm down.

After further review

.................THE PLAY STANDS..............................

For Freedom!
The World is my country, all mankind is my brethren, to do good is my religion.