33 votes

Central Banker is called a criminal and put on the hot seat repeatedly

This is a Panel about the Regulation of Bitcoin from the European Bitcoin Convention.

On the Panel you have Law enforcement and A Dutch Central Banker. They basically admit that there is no way they can regulate Bitcoin itself.


http://youtu.be/GaW2iPSPEs0

The crowd tears them apart exposing their criminal nature and illogical thinking. (check out minute 37 if nothing else)

If you are a Libertarian and havent looked into Bitcoin and still use FIAT dollars, Youre really working against what you say you stand for.

We all know The Fed and the Central control of money is at the root of all the evils of our society. Bitcoin or some other crypto currency is what will liberate us from Central Banker FIAT Currency oppression. It's like a gift to free humanity and all we need to do is embrace it to win.



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LOL!

Send me your FIAT money and I'll type up some bit-coins to return to you!

At least I can still buy gold with the FIAT money you're about to send to me.

You are..

Going to be very butthurt in a couple years...Even more so then now.

Welcome to the closed society.

I have a dream of a New World Order coming into view. It is a big idea. No longer will countries or nation states rule the people, but a secret small group of elite technocrats that combine military, diplomatic, intelligence, economic, scientific and political operations. Only bound by secret oaths, secret proceedings and convent means. We have now a New One World currency that has a single ledger that includes every transaction that is bought or sold. Our plan of a one world dictatorship is nearly complete. The deception will be the war on the mind.

I am confident that with your help man will be what he was born to be: enslaved and codependent.

All hail bitcoin, bringer of prosperity and protector of elite.

Embrace the chaos, let it flow in your veins and live in your heart.

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Where's the source to your

Where's the source to your 'CIA controls bitcoin' claim?

Transactions are open. The

Transactions are open. The addresses or anonymous, though analysis of money leaving and arriving at these addresses can be analyzed to eventually determine identity. One possible solution is when you use a mixer in which you can hide your tracks. More solutions have been proposed.

The problems you pose already have solutions and more comprehensive ones are coming along.

Problems they claim to solve are too great.

Every device has a unique identifier that is logged. There is no way to completely hide the tracks unless you use disposable devices and even then they have time and place.

Have we learned nothing from Snowden? They are tracking and tracing every American and possibly much more. Nothing is anonymous about the internet. If you visit my web sites, I have an eminence amount of information from this. With the correct legal procedures I can procure everything about you. Do you think the NSA has less information than I?

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Yep

Server logs. I have used this information as a start to even locate a one time guest visitors home phone number and address just to see if I could do it. It was not as hard as I thought it was going to be.

If I disappear from a discussion please forgive me. My 24-7 business requires me to split mid-sentence to serve them. I am not ducking out, I will be back later to catch up.

Quick question: Which is the

Quick question: Which is the server in the bitcoin network?

Given enough time, any

Given enough time, any security can eventually be broken. The key is to make it hard enough for it to make it unpractical to do so. The internet is here to stay. Are you saying we should do nothing to bolster security or that we should just ditch the internet?

More practical than first thought.

No lets keep the internet but lets always assume that it is insecure. We should keep as little personal information as possible on it. If I feared the NSA or internet security privacy, than I wouldn't even be here. I am aware of it none the less and adjust accordingly. There are many problems and few solutions.

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Unbelievable

Just unbelievable, In reading this thread I have to start wondering when folks start to come up with ways like battery powered bitcoin wallets and solar panels strapped to their backs to redeem bitcoins if the power goes out. Is this defense of bitcoin not stretching it a "bit" too far? No, I'm sticking to "Hard" assets not "Hard drive" assets.

If I disappear from a discussion please forgive me. My 24-7 business requires me to split mid-sentence to serve them. I am not ducking out, I will be back later to catch up.

It's not a defense. More like

It's not a defense. More like trying to think outside the box in order to solve a problem (though these solutions are obviously less than perfect). Sure, there are some BC enthusiasts that think BC is without problems and will revolutionize the world. But I pretty much think that it's a major problem and that it should be solved.

I have a problem with...

I have a problem with it being digital. Credit cards, Bank balances, Credit, Etc. A person is safer having a hundred copper car radiators stacked up in their backyard.

If I disappear from a discussion please forgive me. My 24-7 business requires me to split mid-sentence to serve them. I am not ducking out, I will be back later to catch up.

Sure, the old stuff can in

Sure, the old stuff can in some ways be pretty superior where security is concerned. After Edward Snowden came out with his documents, people suggested using typewriters in order to circumvent the NSA.

But technology is pretty much unstoppable. Why? Because the benefits it brings were much larger than the drawbacks. I'm sure that when cars first came around, some people hesitated to use those as well. You would effectively be forced to buy fuel, while with horses there was unlimited grass available. New technology brings demerits with it that can be permanent or will take several decades before those demerits can be weakened or removed.

BC has demerits (as does digital). But I do think that it brings enough to the table to be taken seriously.

I learned much from this particular quote:

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

I have no problem with people sticking with what is known. I do have a problem when these people judge other people for not sticking with the old stuff. The old stuff has its own demerits. That's why they attempt to improve upon it. And from watching how innovation is handled, people that were not satisfied with what they had were succesful beyond our wildest dreams and brought more to the world than anyone else. And the only way that such progress can be made is by trying something different.

Not to say that success is guaranteed. I do think that people who stick with the old stuff have the right to warn people who try new stuff that they should apply caution and that things can go wrong. But this judgement that you should never try and that it will always fail I don't agree with. How about not being afraid to make a mistake and see what you can learn? Because from my experience, most is learned when mistakes are made. Never from avoiding mistakes.

People who made the mistakes learned stuff that led them to novel directions not conceivable by people who tend to stick with what is known. Because people that tend to stick with what is known stick with it exactly because they couldn't conceive of the possibility that perhaps reality is complex enough not for a single solution to exist.

That's

why Bitcoin supporters are still pro gold/silver. Those are undoubtedly better ways to store value safely. That's not the argument. The argument is whether Bitcoin has a place, whether it can do some things better than PMs and that answer is yes.

Technology gets more user friendly over time. Look how powerful technology, things like this site, have made the liberty movement. Yet I guarantee 99% of the people here could not use the Internet how it first started out, telnetting to BBs with no web browsers.

The dependency on technology is the problem

My stack of radiators only relies on my hands and back. It is not dependent on a third party. I guess more than anything I have a problem with a third party being involved. I can personally guard my stack of radiators, I have to trust someone else to guard digital assets. One wrong keystroke...

If I disappear from a discussion please forgive me. My 24-7 business requires me to split mid-sentence to serve them. I am not ducking out, I will be back later to catch up.

With Bitcoin

there is no third party unless you want there to be. It works very similar to the Internet. For example if I want to talk directly to your computer from my computer we can give each other our IP addresses and communicate directly. We don't need the Daily Paul, Google, the govt or anyone else. All we need is for the Internet to exist. Now if you don't know how to communicate with me directly you can involve a trusted third party, like the Daily Paul, and we meet here.

Bitcoin isn't much different. It doesn't require third parties, but some businesses/services can make it easier to use. I agree Bitcoin requires a higher level of tech ability than most will automatically be comfortable with, but that problem is being worked on.

Here lies the problem

"All we need is for the Internet to exist" is this not a third party? I can foresee a possible "Page not found" error. Actually even having to rely on a PC at all is a problem.

If I disappear from a discussion please forgive me. My 24-7 business requires me to split mid-sentence to serve them. I am not ducking out, I will be back later to catch up.

The Internet

is not owned by anyone. It spans globally and all you need is a way to tap into it. How many times has the Internet for the entire world gone down since it started in the 90s? Relying on PCs is a problem? Now you think using the DP is stupid too?

I think you misunderstood

I said "I" did not trust third parties. Do you realize how many parties are involved in the internet that have the power to disrupt and block access to anything they like including your local provider? But yes I think having assets that can only be accessed using a PC is risky. And really? comparing access to the DP as the same as secure access to assets?

If I disappear from a discussion please forgive me. My 24-7 business requires me to split mid-sentence to serve them. I am not ducking out, I will be back later to catch up.

If you understand

the origins of the Internet you'll know it was designed to keep communication lines available even if hit by a bomb. Anyone blocking anything effectively would be govt which requires law and Bitcoin is not illegal. Next, yes you can use your computer securely. People access bank accounts with hundreds of thousands of dollars or more online all the time.

I would like to point out

That in just the last couple of years SSL (Secure Socket Layer) Certificate encryption bits have been raised in increments from 256 bits to 4,096 bits. Now why did they have to do this I wonder? Hint: because they keep getting cracked and it will continue to happen. That is your bank account, as you say, securely wrapped in that SSL. Just saying every time you "think" you have security someone cracks it.

If I disappear from a discussion please forgive me. My 24-7 business requires me to split mid-sentence to serve them. I am not ducking out, I will be back later to catch up.

I agree mostly with you. From

I agree mostly with you. From a survivability point of view, that is perfectly true.

But see what the government does. It uses the latest and greatest technology (which was funded with our tax money) against us, to restrict our freedoms and control us. There is nothing wrong in people embracing advancing technology to preserve and regain those freedoms.

David Kramer - LewRockwell.com

http://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/bitcoin%E2%80%94just-ano...

I’m sure by now many of you have heard about Bitcoin. The fact that it’s called “virtual currency” gives you an idea about its actual value as a real medium of exchange. While many people who are touting it on Facebook are enamored with the fact that it was voluntarily created by the marketplace (i.e., is not forced down our throats by a private central bank), I’m afraid that those people are losing sight of how a real medium of exchange arises in a free market. A medium of exchange arises from something that had a material use/value in the market prior to becoming a medium of exchange, i.e., it was also a good being bartered for other goods and services. Over the centuries, the commodities gold and silver won out as the two most preferred mediums of exchange—with gold holding the number one position due to its being more scarce than silver.

What was Bitcoin’s prior material use/value? Zero. It is just bits in a computer. And what’s with the “fixed” amount of Bitcoins? Who/what determined the “proper” amount of 21 million for Bitcoins to top out at? A computer program? (Perhaps next we’ll have a computer inform us as to what the proper minimum wage should be?) Only the free market can voluntarily determine how much of a real medium of exchange is needed in the marketplace over time. While the idea of attempting to get rid of the Bankster monopoly on creating money out of thin air is commendable, Bitcoin is also money created out of thin air. Bitcoin is just substituting one bogus medium of exchange for another.

UPDATE: I’ve been getting a lot of reader response trying to “explain” to me the economic virtues of Bitcoin. Some responders have even mistakenly used Austrian economics to rationalize their views. I would suggest that before you write to me about the Austrian economics view of a medium of exchange, you should read the two books by one of the two giants of Austrian economics, Murray Rothbard, on what a medium of exchange is. Here is the pdf for Rothbard’s What Has Government Done to Our Money and here is the pdf for Rothbard’s The Case Against the Fed. For those of you who have not yet read any Austrian economics, please do not waste your time writing to me trying to explain the “scientific” breakthrough of the bogus Bitcoin computer program. (There already was a REAL digital currency, e-gold, that was backed by a real commodity until the Feds shut it down. Eventually, Bitcoin will be shut down too because of its anonymity capabilities.)

David Kramer

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Mises.org daily on bitcoins

http://www.dailypaul.com/280703/the-mises-institute-weighs-i...

Conclusion: bitcoin satisfies all properties of money.

...

Almost anything can satisfy the properties of money. Almost everything has been used as money. Coffee beans, cigarettes, seeds, feathers, stones, sticks, sugar, salt, etc. All used as money at one time or somewhere now. Money is a common medium of exchange but not all money is equal.

Black's Law Defines Money.
A general, indefinite term for the measure and representative of value; currency the circulating medium; cash.
"Money" is a generic term, and embraces every description of coin or bank-notes recognized by common consent as a representative of value in effecting exchanges of property or payments of debt.

The Austrian school goes on further to inform that the value of bitcoin is based on the service it performs and is not a product that is tangible.

Here is the direct quote from the article.
"In conclusion, virtual monies, of which bitcoins seem to be the most perfected specimen up to date, do not allow acting individuals to manage the uncertainty of the future as well as material monies do. They could serve to intermediate exchanges among those who invest in the technology that creates them, stores them, and transfers them. Nevertheless, they could never achieve that degree of universality and flexibility that material monies carry with them by nature. Thus, on the free market, commodity monies, and presumably gold and silver, still have a great comparative advantage."

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Law terminology is not economics

Wow you're still using a law book dictionary definitions for economic analysis.

Nikolay Gertchev's (Austrian economist) analysis of bitcoin -
"Prima facie, bitcoins possess all the qualities required from a money (a generally-used medium of exchange). They are perfectly homogeneous, easily cognizable, conveniently divisible, storable at practically no cost, and imperishable. Also, they seem to be fully shielded from counterfeiting. In addition, because they exist as a consumption and investment good, they are appraised on their own, thereby satisfying the Misesian regression criterion for the free-market inception of a medium of exchange."
He also explains how relative scarcity (via a predictable slow supply) adds value to the bitcoin. He doesn't conclude that bitcoin is superior to gold or silver. Nor do I claim that bitcoin is better than gold and silver. All I am trying to say is that bitcoin is a great technology that can be used today to advance the cause of liberty and sound money.

Coffee beans, cigarettes, seeds, feathers, stones, sticks, sugar, salt, etc.
They do not satisfy properties of sound money, especially durability and fungibility (divisibility without loss of value). They can be used as money, but not at a large scale. They can work as money within a village or a few adjacent towns. Beyond that they won't work - factors such as durability and cost of transfer will kick in. Your argument that any commodity can serve as money doesn't discredit bitcoin as money.

The Austrian school goes on further to inform that the value of bitcoin is based on the service it performs and is not a product that is tangible.
This I agree and always agreed with. But you should also realize that Gold has very negligible use apart from money. Maybe intangible ornamental value. But it, like bitcoin, satisfies all properties of sound money.

Tell that to the judge.

Tell that to the judge.

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A 3 word response

Gold AND Silver

...

What comes from nothing, will become nothing.

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