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G. Edward Griffin sez the strawman is all hokum

IS THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT A CORPORATION?
IF TRUE, SO WHAT?

© 2007 by G. Edward Griffin. Revised 2007 December 17.

A common assertion made by those who are unhappy with the declining state of freedom in America is that this can be traced to an 1871 act of Congress that established Washington DC and, at the same time, converted the United States from a constitutional republic to a corporation.

Secondary claims attached to this hypothesis are that this is the reason the official wording was changed from Constitution for The United States of America to Constitution of The United States of America and also why all capital letters are used in the name instead of upper and lower case letters. They claim that this Act of 1871 abolished the original constitutional government and created a legal fiction that became financially indebted to and controlled by international bankers.

A forceful example of this view can be found on the Internet at www.serendipity.li/jsmill/us_corporation.htm.

More:
http://www.freedomforceinternational.org/freedomcontent.cfm?...

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edjamacayshin

Bryant v. Wash. Mut. Bank, 524 F. Supp. 2d 753, 758-61 (W.D. Va. 2007) (thoroughly explaining the background and nature of this argument). Federal courts have repeatedly and soundly rejected the contention that the Treasury Department maintains secret accounts for each United States citizen or that an individual can draw upon this secret Treasury account to satisfy debts of any nature. See e.g., id. at 760 (citing U.S. Bank, N.A. v. Phillips, 852 N.E.2d 380, 381-82 (Ill. Ct. App. 2006); McElroy v. Chase Manhattan Mortg. Corp., 36 Cal. Rptr. 3d 176, 177-80 (Cal. Ct. App. 2005); United States v. Williams, 476 F. Supp. 2d 1368, 1372 (M.D. Fla. 2007); Rasheed v. Comerica Bank, No. Civ. 05-73668, 2005 WL 3592009, at *1 (E.D. Mich. Nov. 2, 2005); Ray v. Williams, No. CV-04-863-HU, 2005 WL 697041, *1-2, *5-6 (D. Or. Mar. 24, 2005)). This court likewise rejects Mr. Pflum's contention.

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-- Albert Einstein

It never fails

Posted a link to the brilliant G Edward saying he's seen no evidence of a straw man.

Out of the woodwork come four blind mice.

Phreedom, who offers as proof a Dun&Bradtreet report on some private corporations that just happen to have USA in their name, plus an off point IMF regulation, as purported proof. Then he gives up and starts off a tangents about how the world is messed up.

hisAmericanMajesty just throws around conclusions and diversions, but doesn't respond to Griffin.

As soon as he stops, the new shift arrives, DrBatshit, who engages in ad hominem attacks and threats. He also implies that because he's known a couple of lawyers and been to court with a friend before, that his opinion should carry weight. It doesn't and he offers no counter to Griffin.

Then comes I__Freeman who just makes generalizations about lawyers and some more adhominems. He gives up and hands it back over to batshit. At least he's kind of funny.

All of them at some point claim they are not saying there is a straw man.

Okay, I guess we agree on that, then.

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-- Albert Einstein

Roflol

Every single notice, citation, or other act of enforcement by government is an exercise of authority against an activity complained of. The non-sense is responding to an assertion of authority to compel compliance to an activity complained of with anything other than a demand to prove asserted authority. The only valid response to an assertion of authority is demanding proof of authority.

However superchicken, the chickenator, or whatever other moniker he wants to use is a complete dumbass.

The argument is:

Entity A: Authority exists to _________________ (issue a notice, citation, or other act of enforcement demanding complaince)

Entity B: Prove it. (The only thing that may have been evidenced so far is they have a gun whereas might makes right or force exceeds resistance which is a law of nature not rule of law using reason)

Entity A: You don't believe in my authority? You are diverting because I want to shift the burden of proof for authority and only discuss proving a negative such as some strawman theory.

Get real dude. The fact you are a self proclaimed attorney is pathetic. You ilk is part of the problem not the solution. You have provided evidence for nothing. You are the diversion.

My favorite was when this attorney asserted:

"The founders intended that the people held the sovereignty jointly, not individually."

And I demanded proof of claim:

1. A precise list of members who constitute the group "founders."
2. All members of the group "founders" intended what you assert.
3. All members of the group "founders" possessed inherent authority to bind any non-constituent to any agreement.
4. Constituents possessed inherent authority to bind any unknown, unborn entities to any agreement without their consent.

Which I am still waiting for ...

Furthermore, I would love to hear this idiots explanation of voluntarily registering anything within the United States whether it is a designated name on a certificate of birth, a vehicle, a deed, or the registration of any other property. I would love to hear this idiots identification of all parties to a registration and their respective bundle(s) of rights.

you want me to define founders?

on a site "dedicated to restoring Constitutional government?"

Uh, okay....but shouldn't you have a concept of that already?

I define the founding fathers (or founders) as persons who wrote, directly influenced, or signed the Constitution.

I'll dismiss the rest of the blabber as incoherent to any goal of "restoring Constitutional government" and therefore not worthy of comment at this site. It may however be worthy of comment in various other places, such as: bath houses, meth labs, mental health facilities, the playgrounds of various remedial learning facilities, or your mommy's basement. You may wish to address your questions in such better suited locations.

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-- Albert Einstein

It was your assertion ...

and that is only one point of four in the demand for proof of claim.

If you can't provide the evidence to back it up perhaps you shouldn't assert it. The burden of proof is on he who asserts.

Don't try to pull your dumb ass burden of proof shifting or ridicule on me for your own inability to evidence that which you assert.

I dismiss you as a blabbering fool who has no evidence of anything.

You're just making yourself a fool

Yes, those e assertions of mine. If you really have to ask these questions, you should perhaps stick to conning degenerates and mental deficients with your straw man hoax.

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-- Albert Einstein

You only verify

you are a blabbering fool who is unable to provide any evidence for his own assertions.

At some point

You're either remotely fluent in the subject or its just a waste of time,and you're just a fraud. You were stymied by the term founders. Nuff said!

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-- Albert Einstein

It is a four point demand for proof of claim.

You further verify you are a blabbering fool who is unable to provide any evidence for his own assertions.

"I define the founding fathers (or founders) as persons who wrote, directly influenced, or signed the Constitution."

"You're either remotely fluent in the subject or its just a waste of time"

Obviously you are not since recorded history for the United States of America exists prior to 1787 and any thought of a Constitution supplanting the Articles of Confederation.

And

You're a five star failure.

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-- Albert Einstein

Yet more evidence

to verify an inability to prove that which you assert.

or perhaps

I have enough to keep me busy that I don't need to, or I decided you're not worth it, or you've already conclusively proven your idiocy so I'm happy to let it rest there.

You guys just don't think of all the angles, do you?

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-- Albert Einstein

Ah yes ... I reckon

those 1300+ comments over the past six months trolling Daily Paul by making assertions you can't prove keep you quite busy.

Ok I'll be serious here for a minute

I have been actively posting over the past six months. Part of that reason is that I have had a lung condition that has meant I don't have the energy to work that much, or at least I didn't until recently.

And as to responding to you with a legal treatise - I've done that over and over during the past few months. I've continually posted actual law, and even tried to explain it to you and your cohorts. You're not really receptive to learning the actual law.

You're instead interested in having someone affirm what you think you know from cursory "research" (I use that term half-seriously) involving crackpot quickie law "lectures" (same) on you tube. It's kind of like the conspiracy hobby.

Indeed, people who get deep into the whole sovereign citizen movement often have a demonstrated past which involves delusional beliefs, promoting pseudoscientific beliefs, promoting frauds, hoaxes, and ponzi schemes (or their close cousing, MLMs). Don't believe me, go read the quatloos forum for sovereign citizens (and some of its other forums as well) and you'll find that it is just another flavor of crazy. When you see person after person who are arrested or who lose in court on their sovereign citizen claims, who also are believers in racist theories, who have criminal pasts, or who promote questionable investment ideas (like instant revaluing of Dinar or Nesara bullcrap), that is telling.

If I thought that there was any glint of true intellectual curiosity on your end, I might take the time to respond, but I don't. When you question what is meant by "founders" in a discussion of constitutional law, at a site that is dedicated to restoring constitutional rule, which has Ron Paul's name on it (who is a big fan of founders' intent arguments), I am really dealing with a free range fool.

Hopefully, you consider what you're doing, for your sake, before you go too far down the path of crazy.

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-- Albert Einstein

Even Ron Paul stated that the People are sovereign

Ron Paul knows the law.

Notice how an entire apparatus is coalesced in the system to formally attack and hunt down "sovereign citizens" as "domestic terrorists". Notice the formalized systematic brainwashing emanating from the ADL and SPLC and see that ooze into the consciousness of the "courts". Notice how this entire psyop turns all matters of challenging "law" into a "frivolous" "sovereign citizen" argument. Notice the destruction of the process of justice and the convenient way out for the brainwashed automatons calling themselves the "court" can just vacate all logical conflict with the "frivolous" nature of all claims that demonstrate their lack of authority in certain subject matters. Notice that all the while the entire "intelligence", "law enforcement", "judicial" and "corrections" will spend millions to billions on such efforts all the while the criminal banksters, war criminals, criminal politicians and criminal corporations act with impunity all protected by the psychotic criminal state or federal attorneys. The big crimes go on without justice and theft, extortion, and all out tyranny is inflicted upon the people in the name of the "war on drugs", "war on terrorism", "child protective services" or "code enforcement".

You seemed to have failed so badly at understanding what the concept of law itself is, that it seems you somehow believe that crime can be made lawful. Now that you have a good helping of some "case law" brainwashing made by criminals with power for criminals to keep their power and just so happened to be nicely packaged for you by the usurpers r us over at ADL as well. Good thing they did that for you because now you don't have to waste any more time dealing with all those frivolous arguments made by the people who do not get an attorney who's mind was written to fall into the pecking order.

The most powerful Law of Nature is Time. It is finite and we all will run out of it. Use this Law to your advantage, for it offers you infinite possibilities...

And I agree with him

What he, and I, and the founders mean by that is not what you think they mean.

If Ron Paul agreed with you, that everyone gets to decide after the fact whether they consent, then why did he run for office and serve and vote? He wants a return to the Constitution, not an anarchist utopia. He's never said he believes in any aspect of sov cit mythology, no straw man, no redemption, no accepted for value bs, none of it. And he's never said any of the extraneous babble that you add to their mythology to try to sound original.

I'm in total lockstep with Ron Paul's views on this subject as far as his record goes.

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-- Albert Einstein

One other point about Dr. Paul

I think Dr. Paul knows way more than you ever imagined. Dr. Paul made it part of his campaign to shut down the Department of Commerce. This was a way more calculated move than most know. In fact when he announced this position I knew then at that moment that he would never become President. TPTB would definitely kill him to prevent this shutdown because of the commerce department's key role in the processing of the birth certificates into US Corp. If the department of commerce was shut down this would have broken and removed a key link in the chain of the debt slavery bureaucratic processing of the commercial personhood identities and future profit earning potential calculations thus breaking free of the formal debt slavery processing of the commercial corporate identities of US persons and consolidating reporting of assets to the IMF.

I believe Dr. Paul's knows this and is WAY smarter than he reveals and that this was part of the strategic message under the fuzzy political guise of government is too big. This enabled him to get the message prepared in the minds of those waking up while simultaneously not being killed by the tyrants in the process and not be labeled as a kook by people who do not comprehend the depths of fraud and confusion. You may be missing most of the bigger picture and not know it.

The most powerful Law of Nature is Time. It is finite and we all will run out of it. Use this Law to your advantage, for it offers you infinite possibilities...

Extreme respect for dr. Paul

And one reason for that is he isn't easily fooled. Most of what you talk about is pure speculation or bad analysis. I've not seen any proof of what you say exists, nor any indication Dr. Paul agrees with you. I'm not trying to be harsh, either.

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-- Albert Einstein

you are still not getting it

The mumbo jumbo was designed to confuse and to put everything into a little box of "frivolous" so that usurpation can expand. I am not talking about the bs. I am talking about law itself. I am not saying that someone gets to decide after the fact. I am saying that any lawful court action can only be derived from consent of the governed.

In my position I do not understand what the "courts" and "law enforcement" are claiming and simply seek clarification and proof of THEIR OWN claims. When I ask if their own activities are the exact statutory code definition of felony crimes and their answer is 'yes that is exactly what is happening' then I can only conclude that they are committing felonies crimes against me because the proof came from their own words in the "court" on the record or on the side of the road from recordings made of men claiming to be "law enforcement" AND I have all elements in a valid cause of action to seek justice for their injury upon me. It is no surprise that a criminal gang working to protect its own crimes would then obstruct my path to the jury with evidence in hand. Of course more evidence that it is indeed a criminal gang. Extortion, perjury, fraud, theft, and obstruction of justice.

Do you really think that Ron Paul would not agree with my conclusions?

In the end you are perfect example of what the ADL is spending so much resources on achieving; lumping all arguments into the "sovereign citizen" mumbo jumbo.

You are a victim of brainwashing. This is not an attack; I was brainwashed once too and so was my family but we all are waking up. I also believe without a doubt that the good doctor Paul would completely agree with my conclusions if I showed him the evidence I have. I also believe a jury will believe me when I present the evidence to them. I just want to collect more and more to show the details and to demonstrate the self-evident facts to all good people I know (for free because for me this about love). I also want a solid mountain of evidence to really let it sink in for the jury when they are faced with the fact that we have all failed ourselves by believing something that was simply not true in light of all the facts. I would like to see thousands grow to 10s of millions of We the People consciously shaping law through a clear understanding of our own inherent sovereign right in real law endowed to us by our creator. This has nothing to do "sovereign citizen" and everything to do with utilizing what our creator has endowed upon us.

With worldwide telecommunications tools we have the ability to build apps to enable us to consciously shape law by both the randomization of divine inspiration and the logic patterns that demonstrate failed logic in a very quantified way that result in interrupted motor function of the human body itself for the one presenting and then conflicting their own logic (what I call the Columbo effect as in the logic methods of the fictional Columbo detective). By using the understanding that no law can violate any other law along with records of divine inspiration we can intentionally and consciously have those making the claims collapse their own wavefunctions via questions. Questions arise when clarification is needed due to facts demonstrating an alternative that is in contrast to the facts claimed. This is how we can have the biggest effect of all on change towards a sustainable and prosperous future; by living within real law and secure the protections of law. There is no requirement for us to stuck with case law interpretations that were never valie to begin with because of the fact that the root issues were never examined. In other words, New information has come to light. Got it?

The most powerful Law of Nature is Time. It is finite and we all will run out of it. Use this Law to your advantage, for it offers you infinite possibilities...

Hmm

Don't have enough details to know if you have a cause of action vs the police. If you think you have one from every interaction with every govt worker it sounds more likely to not be the case.

The law was never designed to be the ideal. It has developed imperfectly from an imperfect start in medieval England. I am highly critical of the law and the courts. But for real reasons, not make believe ones. When I explain the way things are, and you protest that it doesn't conform to your idea of utopia, you are failing entirely to be responsive. You've done it over and over.

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-- Albert Einstein

What are you going to do

when they are pointing at you and claiming you are a "sovereign citizen"? Have you ever considered this possibility? What if you are labeled a domestic terrorist for simply trying to operate within the rules of the court but they don't like what you are saying?

You can see some lumping together they do with their training:

http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2013/02/law-enforcement...

I don't think you have any idea how dangerous the criminals claiming to be courts actually are. They are the biggest threat to our security and the source of most crime in this country. You just give them a free pass (for now) because you are brainwashed to believe something that is not true.

They are such a danger to my security and freedom that I have collapsed all of my discussions with them to only conducting a criminal investigation of them to obtain facts on the records of exact code definitions of crimes. I have no other way to protect myself at this point. The criminals are way too dangerous to be friendly or cooperative with in ANY way AT ALL. Don't you comprehend DANGER posed by tyrannical control freaks??

They are a DANGER! I will repeat they are a DANGER to the safety and security of everyone who is not working with them. Can you comprehend this fact? I have no requirement to submit myself to dangerous criminals who are likely to throw me into a concentration camp or even kill me. They are an imminent threat to the safety of everyone due to their criminal mindset and compartmentalization of their processing of prisoners and the jails.

This is why I have constrained all my interactions with them to only a series of questions that have been formalized from code definitions of felonies and misdemeanor crimes and violations of canons of judicial ethics and rules of the court to demonstrate their insanity and DANGER to EVERYONE. I learned these techniques straight from US federal agents and I use the same trained techniques the Federal Agents use to collect admissions of guilt on the record. How are you going to dispute this?

You are not getting it. I know their minds are already in a state of corrupted operation due to the laws they are violating in the process of "enforcing the law". A corrupted mind cannot keep their lies and and fallacies straight and non-conflicting so I only use their own language to have them admit to the crimes that are committing., It is EASY because their intent to unlawfully control someone not uphold the law. If their intent was to uphold the law then they would study the law and make sure that they are not violating any laws. They don't care about the law and do not study the law to this detail because ultimately their only conclusion is that they are endowed with some extra rights to control others when they have exactly the opposite bounded duties and prohibitions within their lawful capacity. Knowing that they don't care about the law and they only wish to control people with their "power" enables me to simply spend my extra time reading all the laws and systematically scouring the codes that describe their activities as criminal acts. Knowing that they don't know the law this well enables me formulate very strategic questions that have the exact code definitions of felony acts (or other relevant violations) embedded in the questions I ask them for clarity if this what they are doing and this is their intent. These people admit to this almost every single time. This demonstrates the corrupted state of their mind and shows that their intellectual bankruptcy and control freakiness can in NO WAY be construed as lawful activities.

So you can say what you want but I am only doing exactly what our more sophisticated law enforcement detectives and investigators do in every single criminal investigative interview they do with suspects; ask them very specific questions that will be evidence to demonstrate their guilt of the crimes they are committing. But for you its all wrapped up as "Sovereign Citizen mumbo jumbo".

You missed the fact these people only care about control not about upholding the law. In their twisted world controlling people with force is upholding the "law". Logic can be used to simply point out their corrupted operation then once pointed out beyond all reasonable one can find mens rea if they do not acquiesce to their failure to uphold the law or not even care to know the law but proceed with their crime.

You have never met anyone like me. You just want to lump within your nice brainwashing package the ADL built for you.

The most powerful Law of Nature is Time. It is finite and we all will run out of it. Use this Law to your advantage, for it offers you infinite possibilities...

Well aware of risk

Not underestimating the disinformation.. My demeanor will go a long way to helping. Also, I am doing plenty to push back. I can't say more here for reasons stated in your post. Suffice it to say I am doing my part and I am going to be smart about it.

I am not going to respond to your whole post because a) it is huge, b) it is Saturday night, c) I am typing on an iPad, which sucks for typing.

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-- Albert Einstein

I didn't request your opinion.

I demanded proof of claim and was very specific.

you sound like a blithering fool

"you demand proof of claim."

I suppose that you saw a youtube video that told you those were magic words with some magic import. They aren't. They just sound stilted and ridiculous.

Regardless of what you might think, we are not in court. We are have a discussion on an internet forum. There is no legal significance to your telling me that you "demand proof of claim" while we discuss our opinions and beliefs. It is ridiculous that you think there is.

Further, even we WERE in court, magic words don't work. A plaintiff always has to "prove his claim" or meet his burden of proof. Whether you blibber your magic words out of your misinformed pie hole doesn't matter.

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-- Albert Einstein

Your blabber

only verifies an inability to meet any burden of proof for your assertions. Opinions are like assholes.

However if you want to render an opinion identifying all parties to a voluntary act of registration within the United States, whether it is a designated name, vehicle, deed, or other form of property, and the respective bundle(s) of rights for all identified parties I will be more than happy to provide a point by point response.

this reminds

me, yes, opinions are like assholes. That is why we have laws that you can actually study, directly, written down on paper, taught be law schools, etc. litigants, lawyers and judges can look them up.

The system may be a mess, it may do some ridiculous things, but it is nowhere as ridiculous as you claim its.

I'm not going to try to convince you of reality. You think you're right, you saw a youtube video, and you require nothing further. The fact that you think you're correct based on so little information is telling.

As you said, opinions are like assholes.

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-- Albert Einstein

And I thought you were being serious for a moment ...

Ok clown, keep on keeping on. The lack of evidence you are putting forth which verifies an inability to prove any of your assertions is quite a fools spectacle.

so, lack of evidence matters to you?

then I assume you'll be abandoning your sovereign citizen/ straw man hoaxing then, right?

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-- Albert Einstein

roflol

Nice fallacy there trying to link me to sovereign citizen (a contradiction in terms only peddled by propagandists) / straw man hoaxing.

Don't be mad because you have an inability to prove your own assertions dude. I think every reader gets it ... you can't do it. It is becoming well settled.

false celebration there much

You claim there's a straw man and offer no proof. You've not offered a single shred.

Phreedom tried, weakly, but still tried.

All you can offer is distraction and ad hominems.

I don't care what you want to call your beliefs. I call them sovereign citizen beliefs. I have no desire to use terminology that you deem acceptable or "magic." I just try to convey a concept and that was done.

My only assertion is that the reality is what it is. I don't have to prove every aspect of it to you. I do believe the straw man is a hoax, but again, if YOU HAVE SOME EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY, let's see it. I know you don't.

I guess this is where you revert to saying things like "but I never said there was a straw man" in your ever-weakening circle of failure.

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-- Albert Einstein