21 votes

Dissent on the Veteran near-worship on DailyPaul and elsewhere

Forgive me if I insult anyone here. But I am very tired of the worship or near-worship of military veterans. There's a good deal of it on the DailyPaul and it is nearly universal in our society. What makes someone who worked for the government fighting in immoral and Unconstitutional wars better than me, better than you. They're human beings with the same rights as you or me, no more no less. Many of them exhibited bravery on the battlefield. But that does not validate what they were doing in foreign countries. I'm not the biggest fan of Adam Kokesh's tactics but I really appreciated it when he state some years back that he shouldn't be "thanked for his service".

Libertarians, Constitutionalists and Paleoconservatives don't thank other government workers for their service, why should we thank veterans?

And please don't respond by saying that veterans fought for my freedom to express myself. They did not. They fought for the State. With the exception of the Confederacy in the War Between the States and the Colonists in the American Revolution, there is no war that can be defended under libertarian principles.



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Stefan Molyneux Makes This Point Well

He talks about how absurd it is to hear the mother in "Fahrenheit 911" bemoan the death of her sons, when they themselves were killing people over in Iraq.

It's hard to break the habit of saying "Thank you for your service," but it is the right thing to do.

___________________________________________________________________________
"Bipartisan: both parties acting in concert to put both of their hands in your pocket."-Rothbard

What good does it do to

What good does it do to segregate and denounce veterans now?..Like it or not, It's a powerful group that is capable of telling you the truth about war. Veterans are respected and listened to. Many veterans are on the liberty team and take their oaths seriously..and in reality they ARE the folks you want on your side if SHTF. Embrace them and convert them and help them find forgivness for themselves. War is destruction of the soul and many are looking for a hand and a kind ear.

It's as old as history...

As Taleb phrases it, those that take the downside for others has always bestowed honor of some sort. Whether it be a babysitter rescuing a child while putting her life at risk, firemen, militia or the military, there are people who carry the downside for society. Conversely, we now have endemic proportions of people in power who push their downside to others: politicians, bankers, academic public policy wonks.

You don't have to respect veterans, fuck if I care... But many did join up with honorable intentions to serve for their country only be shipped off and blown up for a lie. Very many of these people took an oath to the constitution that they intend to keep. Many of these veterans are now very awake, estimates are 70% of special operations fall into that category. So now you have a very good number of these vets that are serious and a real check against a full scale war against US civilians. Oathkeepers.org and others are again taking the downside risk as are many more.

Also, if you've read any history at all about empires, you'd know, you kind of need those guys (and gals) on your side to avoid the worst. Seeming that veterans gave more money to Ron Paul than any other candidate combined, I'm really not sure why you're bitching. The vitriol and whining in this thread only serves to help those you despise. So get your big girl panties on and get your shit straight.... Fuck.

I agree with your explanation

I agree with your explanation (and I remember Taleb writing on that) of the gut feeling basis for honoring the sacrificial defenders of a community against enemies. It is necessary for any imaginable community that faces real external danger. I'm sure the evolutionary psychologists have made easy work of explaining that one.

But of course this feeling has NOT applied historically to the very common sort of roving mercenary solider, or the tax collecting, elite-defending sort of solider from the imperial capital.

Also... this natural, gut feeling support of the "defender" can be artificially extended by the use of propaganda to support a military establishment, which does not necessarily fit that description. (Every side in the both world wars exploited this image to rally the people in support of the soldiers, and many of the soldiers themselves marched off to battle gleefully singing songs and feeling their heroism, believing in their role as defenders.)

I would not call our military entirely mercenary or entirely a paper-pushing bureaucratic branch of government and career path for the lesser able, but I would say it is at least partially both. So the question is to what extent that traditional and gut level honoring of the soldier is in fact proper to any particular case of modern military. I'd say only very marginally. But that's better than nothing!

The same goes for cops, it really depends where and what cop. Some are just overpaid bureaucrats and others are violent mercenaries, while some are in fact people who wanted to put their necks on the line to help and protect others and fight the scum.

The feeling itself is unrefuted, the question is its applicability.

I wouldn't say they "fought

I wouldn't say they "fought for the State". Nowadays they often join for financial stability, a career, and many kinds of opportunities including travel and education. Many even join for a purpose. And many more, including our veterans were mandated to fight, due to the draft. So, I can't really say the topic is that black and white. There are so many different aspects involved here. I guess it depends on the kind of vets you'd talk to, and not just the ones you make assumptions about based from media. Our senior vets these days are the ones who have forged bonds with battle buddies through experiences they were forced into. Alot of the vets and even active duty military know the wars we fight are BS.

Yeah

I would guess that a lot of those in the military are just doing what a lot of defense contractors are doing - sucking off the government teat. It just means you park your principles at the door, that's all.

I suppose their are guys who are in the military to bone up on their Xbox / Call of Duty skills. WTF why not?

Hired guns or selling drugs are both done for money.

Does receiving a paycheck automatically make the exchange honorable? There are lots of ways to earn money. Some are definitely more respectable than others.

Times have changed, and people are waking up. Awareness is a wonderful thing.

"A vote for the lesser of two evils is a vote to keep things the same", Buckminster Fuller..
A choice for liberty is always a choice for liberty.

In many ways you have a serious point.

In New Zealand and Australia we have ANZAC Day, to honer those that were slaughtered for Britain in World Wars 1 and 2. It was a solemn day of remembrance,to reflect on the horrors of trench warfare, mustard gas and all of the other nightmares that war brings.
The ANZAC motto is "Lest We Forget".
Lately however ANZAC Day has been really, really sexed up, the message being that to die for your country is heroic and honorable.
We have very very few WW 1 and 2 veterans left to remember the horrors of war, so now we start the cycle all over again, by whitewashing war, and making our young men and women "heroes" for assisting in the illegal, immoral invasions of other countries.

Mixed Feelings

I think the overwhelming majority of troops signed up thinking they were going to do good (heck, the Navy's slogan is "a global force for good"). It's incredibly sad that TPTB place probably zero value on the lives of people who do their fighting. (assuming it's true, Henry Kissinger said "Military Men Are Just Dumb, Stupid Animals To Be Used As Pawns In Foreign Policy").

I still have great respect for those who go in believing that they're doing good for the world, even if they're being duped (which we know they are).

I see the worship amongst neo-cons and ...

... run-of-the-mill Republican voters all the time, but not so much in the libertarian movement.

But yeah, the entire culture glorifies war.

But then ... it is a sick culture in many ways.

Lost Friendships over Vets 'skin in the game'....

I have lost more than one friend over this hero worship shit. I have explain till I am blue, the reasons people 'join up' are completely person ans selfish, but the patriot schtick the government feeds them overcomes their sense of reality. I don't support 'the troops' and never will. They are American mercenaries, and that is the truth of it. I think it hit me, when I was told, 'You have no skin in the game' by a friend, without kids, no job, with a 8 pack a day habit, living off his pension after THREE years on the Enterprise... I simply considered the source, and moved on... it was sad, I like the guy. But with 5 kids, multiple property tax bills and a future... I got to plan fro tomorrow... he was living in his past... JK

Heroes don't beat people up

That's what I teach my children. Contrary to the prevailing poisonous meme peddled through TV Hollywood, etc.
Relevant to this thread I teach my children that there is no glory or heroes in war. I saw a similar poster online somewhere and made a t-shirt out of it. I wear it around my soldier deifying family to ruffle feathers. I have "street cred" with them since I am a combat wounded USMC infantryman.
Soldiers are tools. Policemen fall in the same category.

Spread the word that being creative is more noble than being a servant.

You Are Teaching Your Children Well

Just as Graham Nash would want...

___________________________________________________________________________
"Bipartisan: both parties acting in concert to put both of their hands in your pocket."-Rothbard

I Support Our DUPES!

Copyright William A. Shields 2013. All Rights Reserved.

“...taxes are not raised to carry on wars, but that wars are raised to carry on taxes”
Thomas Paine, Rights of Man

Ron Paul was a Veteran

and besides without those military veterans there would be No United States of America from the very beginning.

Getting outraged because old veterans are being pushed around by Government socialist goons is perfectly normal.

In the very beginning ...

... the was no "American military."

There was only the militia of the people (the American British colonists against the British military).

Yes, in a sense, but those colonists

needed to be trained as soldiers and formed into companies and regiments (whatever you want to call that). General von Steuben is known for his contribution in that regard.

When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the Universe.
~ John Muir

God and the soldier all men adore

God and the soldier all men adore
In time of trouble--and no more,
For when war is over, and all things righted,
God is neglected--and the old soldier slighted.

Carved into a rock at Gibraltar

When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the Universe.
~ John Muir

Updated:God and the soldier

Updated:

God and the soldier all men adore
Yet what is the reason? There's none anymore
War's never over, and so much is wrong
Yet both are still worshiped as they were all along

Permission to reproduce freely granted to all.

Including for stone carvings.

No, only in time of trouble, like it said.

But thanks for your thoughts.

When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the Universe.
~ John Muir

Ah. So the myth is deeper

Ah. So the myth is deeper even than your poem suggests.

Is now not a time of trouble? Where are the soldiers?

But then, that's precisely what my updated version is about.

Though perhaps you are clinging to the god myth alone.

Heaven help you.

Cuz soldiers sure as sh*t won't.

That much is clear.

Cheers.

Pffff…..Politics is the last thing on the mind when enlisting…

And still last while absorbing the contents of one’s chosen field.

Don’t Shoot The Messenger…!!! (DSTM)

If your article was to seek out second hand information, using a wow factor headline… cool.

Or was written to divide, draw a line, segregate a group of Americans?

And you know Ron Paul

And you know Ron Paul received more donations from active-duty military than Obama or the rest of the Republican candidates combined?

To me, veterins are victims

To me, veterins are victims of one of the greatest crimes of fraud and propoganda. Our government prepared these young people, long before they reached the age of reason, with lies and propaganda to believe they were doing something good. Its almost the ultimate form of evil to use a persons' goodness as a tool, to convince them to commit evil.

So while I certainly don't "thank" veterins for waging illegal wars of aggression where innocent people are oppressed and slaughtered, nor do I pin the blame completely on them. I think most of them figure out pretty quickly what they are doing is bullshit once they are in it. However at that point, they have to fight to keep their friends alive. Its the ultimate crime against humanity on both sides of the conflict.

However I will say this: People joining the military today have no excuse. All the information is out there. Every single person enlisting today will have friends and family that have told them about the petro-dollar system and could easily educate themselves on the truth behind world power. I can easily forgive and feel great sorrow for veterins of past wars. Veterins of future wars? It'll be more difficult.

None of the banking elite, zionest thugs have one ounce of power if there aren't men and women stupid enough to pull the trigger for them. In this age of enlightnment, those who are not refusing to pull the trigger for these scumbags ARE culpable. Ignorance is fast becoming a very bad excuse.

I was a 17 year old kid who thought the USA was always right.

In `62 I joined before I would be drafted ( fresh out of High school laid back and having fun). My mind got changed with a big shock when they sent me to Vietnam in `65 &`66. Death and destruction are not pretty things to see. Those little brown people were not my enemy they were friendly to me. My enemy was and is the Government of the USA and the scumbags that run our lives.
Their is probably a lot more veterans that think the way I do than you can imagine.

It is hard to imagine a more stupid or more dangerous way of making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people that pay no price for being wrong.
Thomas Sowell

Having served at 19 yo in Viet Nam,

I thought it was the right thing to do, my country and all that stuff.
I have relived the horror over and over, throughout my life, and will carry that shame with me to my grave. But honestly, many of us didn't
know any better at the time.

I don't seek HONOR, I seek FORGIVENESS. This whole lifetime of KARMA is a learning experience, and I have learned. Now, OP, will you forgive me???

Did you INTEND to harm any innocent?

We can only act on what we think we know. My dad had a nervous breakdown after being forced out as president of his corporation.
He was totally disabled, on Thorazine for the nest 22 years. One night, the phone rang. When I picked it up, my dad said, "You know, I have been thinking about it. I did everything I could; I did not realize the board had just been using me in order to sell the company. Sure, I gave up my job of 27 years with another company to accept this opportunity. However, I had been boxed in, with adversaries on every side. They wanted me to move to Atlanta [We had moved four times by the time I was nine.] and I was just not prepared to disappoint your mother. I did what I thought was best." I replied, "That is all anyone can asked, Dad."

I told my wife of the time, "Well, my father has made peace with himself; he will die peacefully now, probably within three months."

My father never came out of his dementia and died three months later.

Forgive yourself; only you know what is in your heart.