21 votes

Dissent on the Veteran near-worship on DailyPaul and elsewhere

Forgive me if I insult anyone here. But I am very tired of the worship or near-worship of military veterans. There's a good deal of it on the DailyPaul and it is nearly universal in our society. What makes someone who worked for the government fighting in immoral and Unconstitutional wars better than me, better than you. They're human beings with the same rights as you or me, no more no less. Many of them exhibited bravery on the battlefield. But that does not validate what they were doing in foreign countries. I'm not the biggest fan of Adam Kokesh's tactics but I really appreciated it when he state some years back that he shouldn't be "thanked for his service".

Libertarians, Constitutionalists and Paleoconservatives don't thank other government workers for their service, why should we thank veterans?

And please don't respond by saying that veterans fought for my freedom to express myself. They did not. They fought for the State. With the exception of the Confederacy in the War Between the States and the Colonists in the American Revolution, there is no war that can be defended under libertarian principles.



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Here is the deal

The vast majority of veterans went into the service when they were 18-20 years old. I myself went into the Marine Corps when I was 19. I also tell people not to "thank me for my service", there is no need to put us on a pedestal, but there is also no reason to berate and degrade us like some on this thread have done. I and most other vets recognize that these wars were not about defending America and we will have to live the rest of our days with the haunting memories of our actions on the battlefield, I mean how many well-informed, principled decisions did you make when you were 18-19? Most vets I talk to like myself have realized once we got out, that the real terrorists are these officials in D.C. When the time comes to oust this government who do you think is going to lead the charge? I can not change my past, but I can use that knowledge to affect change in the future, and until my last breath I will fight for every individuals rights, to ensure that personal freedom and liberty never become a distant memory in this country. Much love to the DP community and to liberty lovers everywhere, they are fighting us now, so our victory must be on the horizon, stay the course, stay active, and be the change you wish to see in the world!

Thanks for the comments

Thanks to the person who brought up the draft. That definitely throws a monkey in the wrench (Die Hard reference). Once you're drafted, your choices are to go and fight or go to the stockade. As much as I would like to think I would take the principled stand, I'm sure that I would go and fight.

I also agree that many people were fooled by the propaganda. "Everybody's got a right to be a sucker once. " (Two Mules for Sister Sara quote, Clint Eastwood's Character). However, I don't think anyone should expect more respect because they fought for the State.

That being said, the liberty movement needs veterans. People who can speak out and hopefully prevent the next bloodbath. I have no evidence, but I'm sure the most anti-war veterans are the ones who saw action. The guys in the rear with the gear tend to be more gung ho.

Risking your life isn't Noble

Maybe its romantic, but often its really selfish since family and friends also bear the burden of that risk. What kind of society puts Mothers and fathers in a place that risks life and limb in anything other than a desperate time.

I agree. Just risking your isn't necessarily noble.

Many criminals risk their lives every day. Now protecting the constitution and and your neighbors rights is a noble endeavor. Killing to protect the profits for EXXon, or the Rothchilds central banks, or the FED's global importance is not so noble in my book; in fact the is despicable. Ignorance is whole another story.

"A vote for the lesser of two evils is a vote to keep things the same", Buckminster Fuller..
A choice for liberty is always a choice for liberty.

SteveMT's picture

The govt. targets veterans more than they do us.

I haven't seen much veteran worshiping here on the DP. Perhaps you are confusing worship with respect. The government knows for sure that Vets. know all about weapons, so they're at the top of the homegrown terror watch list higher than even we are. The government wants veterans killed faster than they are committing suicide. The psychotropic medications provided to them by the government are speeding this process along. Many of them are psychiatrically impaired by head injuries, PTSD, Depression, and drugs and severe physical injuries. They believed the same government lies that we did ten years ago. Imagine the bitterness we would experience if we were awakened to Liberty post-amputation realizing the war we fought in was done because of lies and political Macht.

You asked below: How many veterans protest tyranny?
The answer is checkout these pictures of what's happening in DC today.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-10-13/protesting-veterans...

I'm definitely not a "veteran worshipper"

However, even if they aren't fighting to defend our freedoms, they are risking their lives and I think that's pretty noble. IMO, blame the powers that be for the wars, not the troops. The troops, when enlisted, are caught in a bad position because they can't leave and they can't express their opinions. Any opposition to higher authority will result in being court martialed.

I too have never once thought of thank a veteran

I'm almost 60 and protested the Viet Nam war. I learned early on the current wars were about world reserve currencies, corporate profits, drug laws and global control. I grew up thinking and still do that Hitler should have been stopped out of respect for humanity.

I understand governments have agendas and usually don't represent the will of the people especially in America which is where most of my experience is from. Sadly I think a lot of what we are seeing over the past few weeks in DC with truckers, vets & bikers has a lot to do with particular political parties and not so much about personal liberties; I could be wrong and truly hope that I am on this point.

Why do people become soldiers or police today? Mostly for a paycheck and and special treatment in my opinion. I can easily understand how in years past many were duped into joining under false pretext, but I don't believe that is the case any longer.

I would however immediately start applauding and thanking military veterans, soldiers and police officers IF they would start standing up to protect liberty, honoring the oaths they took to protect the Constitution and start opposing tyrannical politicians, expanding police states, profit driven prison systems,

"A vote for the lesser of two evils is a vote to keep things the same", Buckminster Fuller..
A choice for liberty is always a choice for liberty.

They put it on the line.

Their personal attributes or failings aside, military people are a point where the hypocrisy of our system is most acutely felt. They're talked up and worshiped by the political class on their way into battle, then discarded and disrespected when they are no longer useful. If we were really a nation where the military was an extension of the beliefs and needs of the man on the street, this would be impossible.

So, I support the vets demanding the system show some philosophical consistency, if only to expose what a pathetic joke our whole government has become.

Also, if we had a sane system, these people, the ones with this mix of guts and idealism, would be the ones to keep order when other means had failed.

I will agree with this to a

I will agree with this to a degree. For instance...when viet-nam vets were spit on coming home, I think their actions earned it. Romanticize it all you want...but when you go into another country and kill their citizens...that makes you the criminal, regardless of the orders you recieved or even why you believe you are doing it. The ONLY justified use of lethal force in a military application is defending America while on American(or international) soil(or water). If you are in another country killing their people you are in the wrong. Its day and night simple. Now...that isnt to say that soldiers arent following orders....or have a bond with other soldiers...or do brave or noble things in battle...they do....but they have still earned every ounce of that spit. That enemy soldier shooting at you is likely a husband and a father defending his land against a foreign invader. People need to realize that those soldiers WERE in the wrong(they need to realize it themselves) before there will ever be any meaningful change.....after all, they took an oath to the constitution..the constitution has no provision for invading another country...add to that the fact that since WWII no war has been declared by congress and the constitution gives all stated military powers to congress and by implication all such powers to congress.

Deserved every ounce spit?!?!?!

My father was dirt poor and drafted. He had NO CHOICE in the matter. You find more honor in all the hypocritical, entitled hippie scumfucks who got out of it because of their economic/social position over somebody who atleast had heart and honor even though they were lead astray on the communism/domino theory propaganda. Look what all the spitting on veterans amounted to. JACK SHIT. If the left had a fraction of the courage veterans did they would have been finding the high up culprits, war profiteers, politicians, bankers to go spit on instead of their poor, drafted, peers who didn't have any sneaky ways to get out of going to Vietnam. What a smug insult, you have no comprehension of what it was like to have that happen to you. These guys are the one group of people who are untouchable to the elites smears and disinformation because they risked all in the belief they were doing right even if they weren't. You want to change things in this country you better hope to God these guys are on our side, we need them and they need to KNOW we honor and appreciate them. This thread disgusts me...

My guess

is that veterans have entered the heart of the beast, faced the strongest indoctrination and seen first hand the negative side affects of the US government. Veterans get to speak with an extra level of insight and experience. Most of all, since they are worshiped in American society they speak with a greater voice. For example, the fact that Kokesh is a vet gives him more clout as an activist.

It's about the individual -

This is about the individual soldier, not the will of the state that they are subjected to by common laws. When a culture loses touch with the meaning of "warrior", of an individual who has accepted their mortality as a rule of life and is prepared to engage those rules accordingly, they lose their sense of dignity along with it. The individual vet gave the only thing he or she had to give, and many of them lost it.

Bump

.

The Diamond Dog is a real cool cat. | Reporting on the world from an altitude of 420.

Hmm..

I agree with Op to a certain extent. I too believe that these veterans are no better and no less than any every day citizen that has done well or harm in their lives. The only difference is that the vets fell hook line and sinker for the "we fight for freedom" garbage..

I've said this before and i'll say it again. I don't have any issue with a soldier that knows not what they do and a part of me feels sorry for them for falling for it, but for the ones that KNOW that they are there to murder innocent people and KNOW what they are doing is wrong, I won't shed a tear for any of them. They deserve their fate.
You live by the sword, you die by the sword. No honor in any of that, just stupidity.

Kind of reminds me of how they make these millionaires carrying leather balls around in pads sound like heroic role models lol Please....

Careful now!

You may make people think, people don't like that! Bring on the down votes!

Two thinking persons can't have different opinions?

Two thinking persons can't have different opinions?

When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the Universe.
~ John Muir

Hmm

Opinions, yes, however only one of them will have truth on her/his side.

Perhaps you have a point

in view of the war state...
However, WHY do you think that the government is worried about, and consider the veterans to be their biggest concern as homegrown patriots which could present a problem to the "current" powers in Washington? And as time passes, many of them are becoming more enlightened. Many of us today were not awake 15 years ago either.

Some vets and current military may be misguided about their role in the USA "empire" - however they believe in something (their view of the USA and what it once stood for) enough to die for it. IF the majority ever decide to represent the people, they will be the most valiant, heroic, knowledgeable, and strongest force the people have - since many regular citizens are not brave enough, nor willing to die, for what they believe. Are you?

I think there could be a sympathy factor

I think there could be a sympathy factor in this. I think these kids "know not what they do" when they join up in the first place. Most are still in the public indoctrination institutes when they sign up and the last thing in their minds would be principles or policy. With their minds scrambled from hormonal chemical imbalances they are sold a bill of goods about how they can leave home and get instant credit, financial help for school, a fast car and a hot lady or man, at that age this is all most can prioritize.

Then once they sign they are owned and do not have a say in the policies or direction of action. I think that a lot do indeed eventually realize that what they are doing might be wrong but it is too late to get out of the system they have financially locked themselves into. I do find myself feeling a little sympathy for these kids that had no clue what they were getting themselves into. My hatred is with the policy makers and not with the pawns that were taken advantage of and sold a bill of goods.

Now if they were not allowed to join until they were 21 you can bet there would be a huge change in priorities for sure.

If I disappear from a discussion please forgive me. My 24-7 business requires me to split mid-sentence to serve them. I am not ducking out, I will be back later to catch up.

k, you dont think very hard

Veterans, people who were once willing to die to support the system. Seems to me that it's easy to ignore people with no stake in the game, its alot harder to brush off someone who was willing to die for it.

veterans are in a special position to speak out against a tyrannical government. Nobody here worships veterans, everyone is just thankful to have them on our side.

Séamusín

Many of us THOUGHT we were fighting for liberty.

Just like the police officer who recently stopped me for a defective brake light, it was obvious he genuinely believes "to protect and serve".

I faced imminent death SIX TIMES while on active duty and TWICE in the Air National Guard. Ship collisions, fires, nearly capsizing, nearly washed over the side, falling over an open hatch FOUR decks from the bilges, nearly blown up by a terrorist bomb, nearly mobbed to death by a guard dog whose master had left him. I did that for YOU. Not until Bush trumped up Desert Shield, did I realize I had been duped, and I retired soon afterwards. Many were not so lucky; I honor them, and I believe you should, too. However, that is your choice and I will not downvote you for showing the courage to express it.

The minus vote was me. Gfy

The minus vote was me.

Gfy

Down Voted

Obviously!

http://www.dailypaul.com/302332/million-vet-march-at-the-wwi...

"I, __________, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_enlistment

There is no duration defined in the Oath

I second 1988

What ever happened in the past, I applaud them for standing up for liberty today. That does not mean I think they are all saints or that foreign wars cannot be criticized.

Vickie

It has never occurred to *me* to thank . . .

anyone in the military--

I'm about as non-militant as a person can get--

but when veterans show up to protest tyranny--

it says a lot.

A lot that needs to be said. These people have seen things that many other Americans have not seen, and in protesting tyranny they can be taken at their word.

I believe many of them have already seen through the MIC. If they haven't, why are they protesting?

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

How many veterans protest tyranny?

It appears to me that most veterans are not against tyranny. Some oppose Obama, but that's not the same thing.

it's a fine line--

true; Obama is no worse than Bush was, but Obama is more open about it--

I see your points about the false left/right paradigm--

but these people are asking for more than Obama being impeached--

there were those who wanted Bush impeached--

these people are asking for DHS and NDAA to be removed--

that's not just anti-Obama.

They may not totally share an enlightened view, but they are doing their best--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--