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Ancient Confession Found: 'We Invented Jesus Christ' Why governments create false histories and false gods.

I know, this is like the fart in church. I'm not posting this to be antagonistic. I happened to be one of those that don't believe in Christianity but accept that this is what most people in my community believe. I get along just the same....Since we like to question institutions around here then whats wrong with questioning this?

Anyway, check this out as point of conversation:

Ancient Confession Found: 'We Invented Jesus Christ'
Biblical scholars will be appearing at the 'Covert Messiah' Conference at Conway Hall in London on the 19th of October to present this controversial discovery to the British public.

London (PRWEB UK) 8 October 2013

American Biblical scholar Joseph Atwill will be appearing before the British public for the first time in London on the 19th of October to present a controversial new discovery: ancient confessions recently uncovered now prove, according to Atwill, that the New Testament was written by first-century Roman aristocrats and that they fabricated the entire story of Jesus Christ. His presentation will be part of a one-day symposium entitled "Covert Messiah" at Conway Hall in Holborn (full details can be found at http://www.covertmessiah.com).

Although to many scholars his theory seems outlandish, and is sure to upset some believers, Atwill regards his evidence as conclusive and is confident its acceptance is only a matter of time. "I present my work with some ambivalence, as I do not want to directly cause Christians any harm," he acknowledges, "but this is important for our culture. Alert citizens need to know the truth about our past so we can understand how and why governments create false histories and false gods. They often do it to obtain a social order that is against the best interests of the common people."

Atwill asserts that Christianity did not really begin as a religion, but a sophisticated government project, a kind of propaganda exercise used to pacify the subjects of the Roman Empire. "Jewish sects in Palestine at the time, who were waiting for a prophesied warrior Messiah, were a constant source of violent insurrection during the first century," he explains. "When the Romans had exhausted conventional means of quashing rebellion, they switched to psychological warfare. They surmised that the way to stop the spread of zealous Jewish missionary activity was to create a competing belief system. That's when the 'peaceful' Messiah story was invented. Instead of inspiring warfare, this Messiah urged turn-the-other-cheek pacifism and encouraged Jews to 'give onto Caesar' and pay their taxes to Rome."

Was Jesus based on a real person from history? "The short answer is no," Atwill insists, "in fact he may be the only fictional character in literature whose entire life story can be traced to other sources. Once those sources are all laid bare, there's simply nothing left."

Atwill's most intriguing discovery came to him while he was studying "Wars of the Jews" by Josephus [the only surviving first-person historical account of first-century Judea] alongside the New Testament. "I started to notice a sequence of parallels between the two texts," he recounts. "Although it's been recognised by Christian scholars for centuries that the prophesies of Jesus appear to be fulfilled by what Josephus wrote about in the First Jewish-Roman war, I was seeing dozens more. What seems to have eluded many scholars is that the sequence of events and locations of Jesus ministry are more or less the same as the sequence of events and locations of the military campaign of [Emperor] Titus Flavius as described by Josephus. This is clear evidence of a deliberately constructed pattern. The biography of Jesus is actually constructed, tip to stern, on prior stories, but especially on the biography of a Roman Caesar."

How could this go unnoticed in the most scrutinised books of all time? "Many of the parallels are conceptual or poetic, so they aren't all immediately obvious. After all, the authors did not want the average believer to see what they were doing, but they did want the alert reader to see it. An educated Roman in the ruling class would probably have recognised the literary game being played." Atwill maintains he can demonstrate that "the Roman Caesars left us a kind of puzzle literature that was meant to be solved by future generations, and the solution to that puzzle is 'We invented Jesus Christ, and we're proud of it.'"

Is this the beginning of the end of Christianity? "Probably not," grants Atwill, "but what my work has done is give permission to many of those ready to leave the religion to make a clean break. We've got the evidence now to show exactly where the story of Jesus came from. Although Christianity can be a comfort to some, it can also be very damaging and repressive, an insidious form of mind control that has led to blind acceptance of serfdom, poverty, and war throughout history. To this day, especially in the United States, it is used to create support for war in the Middle East."

Atwill encourages skeptics to challenge him at Conway Hall, where after the presentations there is likely to be a lively Q&A session. Joining Mr.Atwill will be fellow scholar Kenneth Humphreys, author of the book "Jesus Never Existed."

Further information can be found at http://www.covertmessiah.com.

About Joseph Atwill: Joseph Atwill is the author of the best-selling book "Caesar's Messiah" and its upcoming sequel "The Single Strand."


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Well you're entitled to that

Well you're entitled to that interpretation. It's not what I got when I read it, nor most of the original Christians, nor most of the existing denominations. I've been Christian, and I know people all hold these different viewpoints. I find it so peculiar that you guys think reiterating what you believe will somehow prove to me that it is true.

Well, as we...

...know, the dominant view isn't necessarily the most correct one, eh? :). This view certainly isn't the dominant one in Christian circles, but there is some evidence that the early Church had a significantly larger portion who did share it, as one of three alternatives. It was more suppressed during the medieval era. The church I attend today condemns it as a 'heresy', so I respect that and won't bring it up there. I agree with them on the core Gospel, which I see as the main thing.

Maybe that's partly why I talk about it here -- as I'm talking your ear (eyes?) off now :) -- I feel I have to suppress my joy about Love restoring all things in other arenas.

No one can make you believe anything, of course -- just sharing an alternative view, much as someone might share a libertarian alternative to a dominant authoritarian view.

If you are at all interested, check out Evangelical Universalism by Gregory MacDonald/Robin Parry or Flames of Love by Heath Bradley for a deeper description and analysis of this 'Christian universalist' viewpoint.

Peace and blessings to you. :)



Ah yes, patrionize us some more.

Oh how terrible is our God and our book, but oh how high and moral you are for defending our right to believe such rotten things even with your own life, such is your superior logic and rational mind. (yes, that was sarcasm)

If I were a superstitious Roman Catholic, I might consider voting for your canonization as the Patron Saint of self-aggrandizing libertines whom plagiarize Voltaire badly.

“My attitude toward progress has passed from antagonism to boredom. I have long ceased to argue with people who prefer Thursday to Wednesday because it is Thursday.” - G.K. Chesterton

Well, at least I can handle

Well, at least I can handle people who think differently than me.

No you don't.

I said I didn't like a movie in a another thread & your response was:

"You're drunk. Go away."

When I explained my position, you went on to berate me personally.

That was on a thread that I started, that you were responding to, BTW.

Are you a POT or a PET - Person Embracing Tyranny?

Lol, really?

That line was a lighthearted joke. I proceeded to explain my position on the movie, and you are the one who then belittled me and berated me! ROFL. That's a mirror brah, not your computer.

Not really.

Self-importance doesn't really give off an air of confidence that would fit with your lofty view of your own sense of tolerance. Just saying.

“My attitude toward progress has passed from antagonism to boredom. I have long ceased to argue with people who prefer Thursday to Wednesday because it is Thursday.” - G.K. Chesterton

Well written. Agreed.

Well written. Agreed.

The 300 AD conversion did not

The 300 AD conversion did not eliminate the pagan gods. Jesus was added to the pantheon. The idea that this religion was 'invented' as psychological warfare by the Roman Empire seems to be a bit far fetched. The Roman empire would have wiped every competing religion off the map entirely if they thought it meant securing land and trade routes. They had the manpower and the force to destroy every religious relic and practice in Judea and upheave the people there. Instead, they let the local inhabitants keep their customs in exchange for citizenship. If they ever thought Jews or Christians posed a real threat to the empire they would have tried to crush it, and they did, but by 300 AD Jesus was already being worshipped with a pantheon including the other Greco-Roman gods. What Constantine did was seize the real estate. The Christian tradition takes on a monotheistic purpose once the Roman traditions are lost, after Rome begins its decline, and continues into the dark ages.

This was discussed quite a bit yesterday.


The most cogent arguments against from yesterday's threads, I felt, were:

1) If it was pro-Empire, why were the Christians murdered for treason against the Roman state for following it for the first 100 years?

2) What about non-Josephus based records such as the Coptic, Antiochan, Alexandrean and Indian?

A documentary on the subject...

Some will read the OP article, and have a preprogrammed, closed minded response. Most will never read the book to get the full details. However, those who truly seek truth, no matter where it may lead them, even if it leads them to question their beliefs, might enjoy watching this documentary on the subject. Mr. Atwill's other book, Ceasar's Messiah is the basis for the documentary. I thought it very interesting.


Hey Dex

We need to talk outside the box man. Since leaving the faith that was forced on me as a Native American, and renouncing my ordination as a minister. I have a whole lot of historical logic and fact to share with you man. Contact me. You sinner you.

If I disappear from a discussion please forgive me. My 24-7 business requires me to split mid-sentence to serve them. I am not ducking out, I will be back later to catch up.

And that I am!

I do like to hear all sides...

For Freedom!
The World is my country, all mankind is my brethren, to do good is my religion.

I'm naming my first born boy, "Christ"

Joshuah the Messenger was real.

The Lost Tomb of Jesus

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Channeling Bill Cosby?

He had a bit where he and his brother thought they were named "Dammit" and "Jesus Christ". His dad yelled "Dammit get in here" and he replied "Dad, I'm Jesus Christ!"

I love you. I'm sorry. Please forgive me. Thank you.
http://fija.org - Fully Informed Jury Association
http://jsjinc.net - Jin Shin Jyutsu (energy healing)

This comes across as

This comes across as completely ridiculous to me. Is there any publicly available statement of his theory and the evidence or is he just trying to sell tickets? I'm not committed one way or another, but these seem like pretty razor thin claims in the face of the modern discussion about the historicity of Jesus. Do any actual scholars take this seriously?

Oh man

Here we go again. Here is the truth that we will not speak of. Soma and the snails, Acacia, and more that created the books that were written. From India, Arabia, Iran, Israel, throughout to the Americas were the origin of all most all religions.





And there are many more if you like. Enlighten yourself and take a chance, click on it before you argue, lol Anyone that believes a fiction account of their "trips" deserves to get sheared.

If I disappear from a discussion please forgive me. My 24-7 business requires me to split mid-sentence to serve them. I am not ducking out, I will be back later to catch up.

LoL ... These poor fools who

LoL ... These poor fools who think KNOWLEDGE is the source of conversion to Christianity ... Ahem, genuine conversion to Christianity is a SPIRITUAL rebirth which precedes from the risen Savior Himself. Now, if Jesus Christ is simply an invention of men, how can the latter process occur? Personally, I'd recommend Atwill start investigating the paranormal in general and interviewing Christians with spiritual experiences. LoL

Same old story

Atwill has been pitching his Josephus forgery spin for some time. If you enjoy it, that is what counts.


Liberty = Responsibility

Lies and LIARS

End of story.

As stated in the other thread

BASICALLY: Jesus' oral message to the Jews was Hijacked by Paul(working with both the Romans and Priestly jewish class- more than likely) and given a pagan theme which was used to consolidate power in Rome and used by the Jews as an example to other jews of Jesus being a heretic.

That's a pretty funny notion you have there.

Considering that Paul was executed by Rome at the behest of the Priestly Jewish class for apostasy and sedition against the Roman Empire, I'm sure that Paul was definitely a nice little covert agent and conspirator against Christianity. (sarcasm)

Let me know when the shuttle lands, zforce. lol

“My attitude toward progress has passed from antagonism to boredom. I have long ceased to argue with people who prefer Thursday to Wednesday because it is Thursday.” - G.K. Chesterton

First there is no proof paul was executed

in fact, to support my theory, when Paul returned to Jerusalem he found himself to be in a bit of a pickle with Jesus' brother, James for teaching Jews living among the gentiles that they didn't have to follow the law/Moses which was then taken up with the Sanhedrin who were themselves a divided assembly of Pharisee and Sadducee.

AS is with any good conspiracy most are not in the know, just a handful need be and as such I am sure paul was instructed to use his "Pharisee card" to divide the Sanhendrin and then use his "Roman Card" to escape death.

FAct is, Paul was saved by the Pharisee and Romans.

Lol Really?

This reeks of History Channel source material, never mind that you're essentially arguing that a bunch of murderous Judaizers are to be styled as the sympathetic party with this foolishness.

Yes, Paul used his status to escape being murdered by people disinherited of the covenant they once enjoyed and who would have all of us gentile men continue to have our privates mutilated with no theological justification, much as Jesus often escaped death at the hands of the same crowd before he eventually allowed himself to be captured. So what? Rome didn't save Paul, Paul saved himself using the law that everybody living in the Roman Empire was subject to, and that speaks nothing to whether or not Paul was executed or not. The testimony of Ignatius on this is far reliable than anything a bunch of hack atheistkult pseudo-intellectuals have dreamed up. QED.

“My attitude toward progress has passed from antagonism to boredom. I have long ceased to argue with people who prefer Thursday to Wednesday because it is Thursday.” - G.K. Chesterton

No doubt 'Christianity' was Romanized/Paganized... BUT...

Please provide evidence, or reasoning as to why you believe Paul would have been in on this?

The 'early church' was not 'Christian' yet, as the term had not yet been invented. The most accurate term to describe the early church's beliefs, in today's belief systems, would be Messianic Jews.

I believe the Romanization/Paganization did not come until hundreds of years a.d.
Not until after the Council of Nicea (325 a.d), when the Biblical story was Canonized under order of Roman Emperor Constantine, and/or the translation of the New Testament from Hebrew/Aramaic/spoken-word, into Greek.

The story of Yeshua is Jewish one. His goal was to bring all gentiles, all people into the fold, into Israel. He accomplished his mission to sufficiency, until His second coming.

No doubt the agents of the Evil Empire, including their task-master/traitor-Jews, like the corrupt money-changes in the Temple, would try to co-opt that liberty movement, just as they try to co-opt today's liberty movement.

Are you a POT or a PET - Person Embracing Tyranny?


First let us discuss your belief that "His goal was to bring all gentiles, all people into the fold, into Israel."

PLease explain how the following exclusionary statement fits with that theory.

I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matthew 15:24)

Was his Mission ONLY for the Jews, or was he just kidding?

Since it'll be a while before you can scrounge up an answer...

I'll just answer your question...

You have to remember there were no Christians or Muslims yet. Only Jews and Pagans. Judaism was the ONLY venue for a faith of One True G-d. He needed to bring His message, which was always G-d's message, to the people chosen by G-d to spread this message. The Old Testament is full of the 'chosen people' turning away (worshipping golden calf, etc.), and they were in danger of that again, hence "lost sheep"... The goal, as I said, is to eventually bring everyone into the fold...

IMHO, that was/is to be through belief in and tradition of what would today be basically considered 'Messianic Judaism'. That's what the 'early church' was. That was what they believed. That was 'Christianity' (Messianic Judaism, really) before Rome co-opted it.
NOT the paganized, Romanized form of 'Christianity' that is practiced by most 'Christians' today...

I mean, 'Christians', based on Old & New Testament scripture, should not be celebrating Easter (Ishtar), or Christmas (Jesus was born in Autumn). But we should be celebrating Passover (Last Supper) and Hannuka (Feast of Dedication).

I grew up celebrating Christmas, Hannuka, Easter, Passover, everything, with a Jewish dad and Catholic mom, so I'm not hating on anyone and I love the tradition of Christmas. Just from a biblical/religious purist standpoint, and I'm not a religious purist, I just like to be consistent and accurate.


Are you a POT or a PET - Person Embracing Tyranny?

Thank you! Agreed entirely; however, I would make one point...

I believe that Romans 14:5 gives the option of celebrating the Feasts and Festivals (Biblical) or treating every day alike, and Colossians 2:16-17 declares that we are not to permit others to judge us on the basis of how we celebrate the Feasts, New Moons or Sabbaths..

OTOH, This does not allow for 'Replacement theology' in regards to the Feasts & festivals, we can't replace them with 'sanctified Pagan celebrations' and call it good.

"Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern." ~~C.S. Lewis
Love won! Deliverance from Tyranny is on the way! Col. 2:13-15