27 votes

400+ Year Old Tree that witnessed the birth of The United States in trouble

A 400+ Year Old Live Oak (the Angel Oak) located in South Carolina is in trouble by possible development.

The LIve Oak has seen the Civil War, the Birth of the United States and every Elected President of the USA.

A coalition from around the country is trying to gather enough money to protect the tree.

More info below

http://tpr.org/post/grass-roots-rally-protect-south-carolina...

http://www.lolt.org/



Trending on the Web

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

How is it in trouble exactly?

I didn't see any mention of any plans to harm the tree at all.

Thanks for posting this

I was just reading about this tree! Some say it's the oldest living thing east of the Mississippi.

I likely have a 300 year old

I likely have a 300 year old white oak in my yard. The thing is about 3-4ft across

To climb the mountain, you must believe you can.

Near here is a white oak that

Near her is a white oak that is 11 ft diameter, 36 foot circumference, est 120 foot tall.

Free includes debt-free!

This tree also saw the

This tree also saw the destruction of the ecological systems in North America...

But hey

I got a nice bedroom set, ;) only kidding, it's mostly pine. ;)

I keep running into you. :)

Hi, js290. I think it's TELLING how Restorative Agriculture relates to so many environmental issues. It's like the butterfly effect - how one upset in the balance of nature can have far-reaching effects. (Btw, bet there are butterflies on Shepard's farm, too, not just honeybees. Dying out all over, pollinators seem to thrive in NATURAL environments.) I hope that you'll *keep* pointing it out wherever relevant. Truly, it's a message that needs to get out. I do believe that our future depends on it.

Now that I'm aware, I was telling a friend about Restorative Agriculture. She instantly "got it" - how much sense it made. This family has five rural acres. In fact, she was telling me some of her own observations as to what sprung up effortlessly (e.g., certain kinds of berries). She's going to watch the video. Her husband is an engineer; surely he'll also see how logical it is. I'm quite sure they'll be doing some experimenting. Thanks.

P.S. Re upsetting the natural balance, my "hero" Amory Lovins (RMI) has a great anecdote he told at a conference in upstate New York where he and Gunter Pauli were giving a presentation. I heard it ages ago, so don't quote me; but it went something like this: Somewhere in Africa, use of DDT caused the bird populations to start dying off. Because of that, insects that had been kept in check by the birds began to proliferate. Some of these insects ate through the village's thatched roofs. The solution was to replace the grass with corrugated metal. But then in the rainy season, the never-ending loud drumming on the roof prevented anyone from having peace and getting sleep; so besides just driving them all crazy, the people began to get sick. In the meantime, along with thriving insect populations, rats also thrived. Besides being a nuisance, these rats were carrying diseases. The solution to deal with the rodent infestation was to airlift in thousands of cats. Amory said that their work was to, basically, eliminate the need for the airlifting of cats. :)

When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the Universe.
~ John Muir

Natural World: Farm for the


Natural World: Farm for the Future

Farm for the Future

Thanks for this video. (I realized today I never finished watching it.) It's interesting to watch that woman's epiphany. And as with all the other videos on the subject, getting to see examples of natural farming just never ceases to amaze me - the different plant combinations, for one. I wonder if she's made any sequel. It's clear she was going to try it. I wonder how it worked out.

I started to think about permaculture again this morning because of this article in the NYTimes: Accidental Cattle Ranch Points The Way in Sustainable Farming. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/12/business/an-accidental-cat...

When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the Universe.
~ John Muir

Wild Pollinators

Btw, bet there are butterflies on Shepard's farm, too, not just honeybees. Dying out all over, pollinators seem to thrive in NATURAL environments.

Shepard talks about the wild pollinators at 1:36:50.

Now that I'm aware, I was telling a friend about Restorative Agriculture. She instantly "got it" - how much sense it made. This family has five rural acres. In fact, she was telling me some of her own observations as to what sprung up effortlessly (e.g., certain kinds of berries). She's going to watch the video.

You and your friends may enjoy these fb pages:
https://www.facebook.com/feralculture
https://www.facebook.com/groups/paleocommunity/

Her husband is an engineer; surely he'll also see how logical it is. I'm quite sure they'll be doing some experimenting. Thanks.

Shepard has formal engineering and ecology training. I highly recommend his book Restoration Agriculture.

P.S. Re upsetting the natural balance, my "hero" Amory Lovins (RMI) has a great anecdote he told at a conference in upstate New York where he and Gunter Pauli were giving a presentation. I heard it ages ago, so don't quote me; but it went something like this: Somewhere in Africa, use of DDT caused the bird populations to start dying off. Because of that, insects that had been kept in check by the birds began to proliferate. Some of these insects ate through the village's thatched roofs. The solution was to replace the grass with corrugated metal. But then in the rainy season, the never-ending loud drumming on the roof prevented anyone from having peace and getting sleep; so besides just driving them all crazy, the people began to get sick. In the meantime, along with thriving insect populations, rats also thrived. Besides being a nuisance, these rats were carrying diseases. The solution to deal with the rodent infestation was to airlift in thousands of cats. Amory said that their work was to, basically, eliminate the need for the airlifting of cats. :)

Reminds me of a Simpsons episode...

% Some time later, the city honors Bart for his work.

For decimating our pigeon population, and making Springfield a less
oppressive place to while away our worthless lives, I present you with
this scented candle.
-- Mayor Quimby, "Bart, the Mother"

% Away from the speech, Skinner and Lisa talk.

Skinner: Well, I was wrong. The lizards are a godsend.
Lisa: But isn't that a bit short-sighted? What happens when we're overrun by lizards?
Skinner: No problem. We simply release wave after wave of Chinese needle snakes. They'll wipe out the lizards.
Lisa: But aren't the snakes even worse?
Skinner: Yes, but we're prepared for that. We've lined up a fabulous type of gorilla that thrives on snake meat.
Lisa: But then we're stuck with gorillas!
Skinner: No, that's the beautiful part. When wintertime rolls around, the gorillas simply freeze to death.

Airlifted cats = Freezing gorillas

Ha, ha. Yup. Same principle.

Yes, I recalled Shepard talking about those mason bees. I don't know if he specifically mentioned butterflies, but I'm sure they're there, too. (Well, it was either a future butterfly or moth that that bee was carrying.) That's a great story. It nicely reflects how you need to observe and then capitalize on the observation - a work in progress until that balance is fully established... a concept that keeps coming up with me! :) http://www.dailypaul.com/270001/time-for-my-nightly-jam-sess...

Actually, mentioning the importance of observations there reminds me of something else. In the film Zero Effect, a satire of sorts, Bill Pullman plays a Sherlock Holmes-type private eye. (Ben Stiller is the sidekick.) Darryl Zero talks about the importance of Objectivity and Observation, or "the two 'obs.'" Actually, the same applies in RA - that need for objectivity. I forget the example, but Shepard warned against certain farming assumptions that simply weren't true. You had to do your own objective analysis of the situation. FYI, here's the movie clip. I think it's cute. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10fUJHlIuYA

When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the Universe.
~ John Muir

Very interesting, permaculture

Thanks js

Redesigning Civilization --


Redesigning Civilization -- with Permaculture

Perspective

I think we would benefit from some perspective here. Some trees can get to be thousands of years old. This particular tree isn't special in that aspect. Also, this tree didn't "see" the Civil War or anything else. Tree's don't see, people do. I love trees. I love nature, however I love humans more. Whoever owns the property has the say in this matter in my opinion. If they want to build, then they have the individual property rights to build. If someone wants to buy that land and prevent that development, then they have the right to offer to buy the land. In any case, I liken this to the dolphin/tuna situation. It seems to me a left wing tendency to place other species' needs ahead of our own and sometimes not even in any logical order. When liberals complain about dolphins getting caught in tuna nets, why don't they ever complain about tuna getting caught in those nets? Why is one fish more important than another? When they complain about polar bears losing numbers, why don't they ever complain about the animals those bears eat? I love animals and want them to be respected as much as possible, and trees as well, but not to the extent that humans' property rights are violated. We own the earth because we evolved to do so. We can be respectful of it and every living thing on it, but there are logical limits.

Free market capitalism isn't right for America because it works better. It's right because it's free (and it works better).

Thank you for using your brains!

I was surprised to see this article on the Daily Paul, and shocked to see everyone rally behind it.

It is entirely a cut and dry property rights issue. If that tree really is so special and draws so many visitors, the developers are unlikely to threaten its existence anyway--they'll rather make money off of it in the form of increased property values for the homes they could build there or a tourist gift shop.

If it's really that special, the market will sort it out.

property rights, money, & markets

It is entirely a cut and dry property rights issue. If that tree really is so special and draws so many visitors, the developers are unlikely to threaten its existence anyway--they'll rather make money off of it in the form of increased property values for the homes they could build there or a tourist gift shop.

If it's really that special, the market will sort it out.

The combination of words above indicate a clear misundestanding of property rights, money, and markets.

Perhaps reading/listening to Ch3 of http://c4ss.org/content/12802 will help clear a few things...

03-01 Long – A Plea for Public Property
03-02 Gillis – From Whence Do Property Titles Arise?
03-03 Wilbur – The Gift Economy of Property
03-04 Chartier – Fairness and Possession
03-05 Long – The Libertarian Case Against Intellectual Property Rights

What are the "market" incentives to look out for Nature's P&L statement?

You can't separate man from Nature.

I love nature, however I love humans more... We can be respectful of it and every living thing on it, but there are logical limits.

You can't separate man from Nature...

If someone wants to buy that land and prevent that development, then they have the right to offer to buy the land.

Buy from whom??

Are you actually bashing money?

Are you really on the DailyPaul and you are bashing the concept of money?

"No no, it totally makes sense that humans are the only life forms in 3.8 billion years that "need money" to live"

Money is a beautiful thing. It allows more freedom than any other species would ever enjoy.

Free market capitalism isn't right for America because it works better. It's right because it's free (and it works better).

but we

somehow protect some huge piece of crap statute given to us by the French, a symbol of mass immigration.

While there are thousand year old trees, they are not found on the east coast, and if there are they any they number less than what you could count on one hand.

Trees have always been a place where liberty minded folks gathered in the United States, the Constitution was conceived in part under the Liberty Tree, which the British hated so much they destroyed it.

Just a note, all those people who you say saw the revolution, the civil war etc., are all dead, the Angel Live Oak lives on and reminds us to talk about what those people seen through this tree.

During the wooden shipbuilding area on the east coast, there were many Southern Live Oak, most big ones were cut down long ago, even to make ships like the USS Constitution, this tree however was missed as it was big even 200 years ago, this is one oak that if undisturbed could reach 1000 years old.

I'm all for the free market , but we have to also be good caretakers of our resources and use and protect them in an equal way.

This is one tree that deserves protection.

OK, put this is perspective

We are wrestling with the national deficit, we have the means to wipe it out. All we need to do is sell off the national parks to the highest bidder, boom! There must be billions, maybe trillions just sitting there doing nothing, in timber, gas leases, hydro power, mineral rights, rental and development money. The Grand Canyon alone must be priceless. Think of the hydro power it could generate, let alone the condo sites that could be sold off. Sarcasm, some things should be preserved for the future.

We fought MDOT to save a 150 year old elm Tree

We organized, had Local TV coverage, the whole 9 yards, to try and save a 150 year old, majestic and very health Elm tree. It was one of the few that survived the Dutch Elm Disease of the 1950s, but it couldn't survive the Michigan Department of Transportation. It was deemed to big to live, so they replaced it with a skinny little red maple tree.

:(

:(

When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the Universe.
~ John Muir

It's just a tree

It's wood. It's old. So what? Oaks aren't endangered or anything.

It's "seen" the Civil War, Birth of the USA and every elected President? That's called anthropomorphizing a plant. In other words: sentimental BS.

I'm not against the protection campaign. If people love it enough they will manage to buy the land that it's on to prevent its destruction. If not, then it just proves that someone else (eg. a development corporation) values the land more. That's capitalism (however encumbered by regulation) in action, folks.

As for me, I'll see it as a victory either way it goes.

same could be said

for anything, Pyramids, Statue of Liberty, whatever - sentimental BS, plow em under and build a factory.

Gotta disagree, history wether its in the form of 3000 year old Giant Sequoias (that they use to cut down to make toothpicks for because the wood shatters on impact when they drop because they are so huge), Washington's Home, the Smithsonian (who cares about that stufff...right or probably the biggest live oak on the east coast, they are all part of our history. Some people would say that following the Constitution is sentimental BS, we don't live in the world when it was written anymore, I say that's BS.

Yeah. Some people seem to view

human beings in such one-dimensional terms, as if all we had was a brain - indeed, half a brain, the left half. These days, some would like to apply the above comment about sentimentalism to not only alders, but our elders. It's a slippery elm! (I mean slope.)

When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the Universe.
~ John Muir

I second that

What we value is important, and I like historic trees. By GreyWyvern's logic, why not Soylent Green? Yummy!

By all means, save that OAK. But...

1) What the heck does this mean? "If it buys the parcel, the group says it plans to turn it into a park. Otherwise, the land will be "back on the market as a development tract," Hagood says. "And it's very appealing to a developer because it's already permitted.""

Am I missing something? The group collecting all this money from people WANTING TO SAVE THE TREE *could* put the land back on the market?

2) If it was so important - and I, for one, think it is! - then how was the land not ZONED so as to provide a protective zone for the tree? WHO voted to allow that land to be developed in the first place?

3) A wonderful book on old growth forests is Reading The Forested Landscape, by Tom Wessels. It's an amazing book whether one's interest is trees, natural history/ecology, or American history. Read a summary at http://www.amazon.com/Reading-Forested-Landscape-Natural-His...

When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the Universe.
~ John Muir

Trees, natural history. ecology, American history

Reading The Forested Landscape, by Tom Wessels

"Landscape is much more than scenery to be observed or even terrain to be traveled... Etched into the land is the history of how we have inhabited it, the storms and fires that have shaped it, and its response to these and other changes. An intrepid sleuth and articulate tutor, Wessels teaches us to read a landscape the way we might solve a mystery... no walk in the woods will ever be the same."

http://www.amazon.com/Reading-Forested-Landscape-Natural-His...

When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the Universe.
~ John Muir

Nooo

I've been allover the world, and the Angel Oak was my personal favorite.

Whatever happens, I hope whatever new owner steps in, is able to conserve it for many more years.