63 votes

Nystrom said "...bring all your interests here." ~ OK. The Ultimate Liberty Community UPDATE: 3/20

UPDATE: 4/20/2014 I have begun looking for locations in New Hampshire.
Unfortunately my business keeps me nailed down until June. But I am working with a real estate agent. We are sifting through property listings. This is the new thread;
Any Free Staters Here Know 'About New Hampshire?
UPDATE: 3/20/2014
The River Stone property deal has fallen apart. In the course of doing the last round of investigation I became aware of an important change in regards to the local gas drilling activity.
When I originally looked at River Stone in 2010, all information indicated that River Stone was out of the way in terms of it's desirability for drilling. There were no collection pipelines for transmitting natural gas then. All indications including low ball lease offers to the seller and my own industry contacts proved that River Stone would be safe from the drilling boom.
That has changed. A few weeks ago I had a conversation with an investment firm's managing partner. He said they were investing almost a billion dollars in drilling infrastructure in that area. Almost simultaneously, the seller was approached with an offer to buy the mineral rights to the property. While I agreed to keep the details of the offer confidential, I can say that the offer was extremely generous compared to some of the highest offers I've heard about. These two pieces of information indicated a very big shift. In addition I became aware of an east west pipeline being promoted by the state of Ohio.
These developments made River Stone too risky to invest in.
So I withdrew from the negotiation process.

The Ultimate Liberty Community
River Stone Estate:
UPDATE 12/20
This guy nailed it.
Submitted by Barracuda_Trader on Fri, 12/20/2013 - 14:29.

UPDATE: NEW! My Liberty River Stone Photo Album - LOTS OF DETAIL
This is a completely self contained development that has 38 buildings, all restored to pristine condition. On 1200 fertile acres, with endless water resources.
I envision a community of Liberty minded people coming together to run and maintain this operation.
Any Takers?

A Special Event @ River Stone


Food production
Profitable farm
1200 acres of resources
Gas wells
Resort potential
River destination
Golf near-by
The Allegheny Grille
Black Forest Restaurant
Foxburg Pizza & Country Store
Foxburg Wine Cellars
Foxburg Inn
The Allegheny RiverStone Center for Performing Arts
Divani Chocolate Boutique
Prime Outlets Grove City
The Foxburg Country Club
Pine Grove Golf Course
Olde Stonewall
Biking and Hiking
Pennsylvania Great Outdoors
Segway of Western PA
Boating and Fishing
Moraine State Park
Riffle Runner Excursions
Canoing and Kayaking
Parker’s Landing Canoe Livery
Riverview Sportsman Canoe Livery
And if you like the concept please VOTE it UP!

Help Wanted:
Medical Worker
Experienced Livestock expert
Bee Keeper
IT Tech
Business Manager
Event Planner
Organic Chef
Experienced Organic farmer
Experienced with Aquaponics and Growing MicroGreens
Experienced with Pond Stocking and Fish Farming
Tallow Chandler(candle maker),
Biofuels pro
3D Printing Tech
Resource Media Specialist (Librarian)
Solar Energy Specialist


Love it
Submitted by Michael Nystrom on Thu, 10/24/2013

How would you decide who gets to come and stay?
BT: Initially I would build a team one-by-one. Then we'd decide as a team on future members.
I think the former Daily Paul 'all comers welcome' model wouldn't be the model. Prior to entry, people would have to demonstrate their worth to the community. It would be a little harder to ban someone from there, in the physical world, and I'm no one should be so naive to think that peace love and liberty would make things all work out.
BT: Right on all counts
A communist commune? That would be doomed to failure.
BT: Right
There is a model of a similar place in Kunstler's post-apocalyptic novel World Made By Hand. It was a productive place. It had flour! In a world where global payments and communications have broken down, that is no small feat. This place you're showing us also has that capability.
BT: I’d have to read the book. But I've also been talking to this seller for three years now.
But the devil is in the details. The farm in Kunstler's novel was basically run by one guy as I recall. The benign dictator/monarch model can work fine for a while. The Daily Paul is basically a dictatorship with a self appointed mayor.
BT: We have learned a great deal from being part of the Daily Paul. The kind of lessons that would help avoid many pitfalls in a community like River Stone.
That is fine for a while, but in the long term it is not stable (for a website, or for a community such as the one you describe). What kind of governance structure do you envision such a place having? It would be a huge operation to run, involving thousands of people.
I like the idea, very much. Like a real world Daily Paul. I'm not a medical worker, but I have some valuable knowledge on community management and relations. :)
- - -
I made it to Taiwan. The time difference is exactly 12 hours. It is 2:30 in the morning. Jet lag woke me up, so I thought I'd check in. I'll have more of an update later, after I've collected my thoughts. But I saw this thread and couldn't help but comment.
- - -
Thanks! Keep it going. BTW, when I ran into my old friend "the market socialist" (Ron Paul Class of 2007) at Whole Foods the other day we talked about the other members of our erstwhile group. One guy, also RP Class of 2007 he said is up in NH living on some kind of a 'liberty commune' (for lack of a better term).
I'll see if I can get in touch with him and see what's going on.
How about a whole network of 'liberty communes' across the country? They'd have to have better names, obviously. Government free zones? But they'd need governments of their own.
- - -
When it was clear that communism was a failure, the Chinese government began experimenting with regulation-free zones. I can see the same thing happening with this country down the line.
Good work BT. Always stay ahead of the pack!

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I checked

Foxburg Inn reservation page is working

River Stone has a pretty strong security plan. It's not the kind of place you can show up unannounced.
They were doing tours for a fee.
I never got into any of those details with the owner because I would prefer a tight security plan for staff & livestock safety.

"Does this mean I'm invited to relocate there when you get title?"
River Stone is an equal opportunity employer!

Used a different link before. Here's what I got with yours:


I will just call them during the week and ask about rates, availability and what's doing around the area.

Thanks for trying.

“It is the food which you furnish to your mind that determines the whole character of your life.”
―Emmet Fox

Weird huh?

If I go here first
Then click reservations
It works.
It's a small hotel. Like 22 rooms. Not real fancy. But nice.

I'd consider taking a dirt nap in the gardens there ... someday

Where is the bone yard?

Debbie's picture

Wow, this is the most gorgeous place I have ever seen!

I presume it comes fully furnished, as you said it comes "fully equipped"? One could spend hours just walking through looking at every artistic detail. Your project sounds amazing.



Some furnishings are included.

Three years ago he wouldn't sell the restaurant or the hotel.

Now furnishings are negotiable and the prices are getting really nice.

Debbie's picture

Okay, cool. That would be great if all the furnishings are

included. :)



Communes tend to work best if they are mono-religious/mono-cultural/same world view. Think of the Canadian Hutterian Brethren, and even some of them get pis*ed off and leave acrimoniously, though that is not so common. Just loving "liberty" might not be enough to make a go of it. So much diversity of personalities, goals, etc. I am so sorry, though I think this is the truth. You have to be a natural collectivist.

hmmm . . .

a natural collectivist--

maybe that is why we are 'hiding' in a "liberal" area; we would rather not be part of a collection--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

Wow! You're the only person who spoke these words to me

"Hutterian Brethren"
Back in the 70's I used to buy tons of toys from them for my pre-school
Bruderhof Communities - Community Playthings, a line of classroom furniture and toys, was developed during the 1950s and soon became the Bruderhof's main source of income

let me be the second

C o ll ectivist, comunist, the problem always become that of dictatorship. Already that problem surfaces. Everyone has to follow the rules and if there is a mojority vote those who disagree are now the surfs the slaves the submitters to those who feel power and dominance. Nice try wont work. Freedome is an individual decission not group think.


Remember that if you ever go

Remember that if you ever go under the scapel for surgery.
Which one on the OR team would you like to exercise their individual decision without consulting the team?

Long as I am in charge its all good.

Its when that teem votes against my will and then forces their proceedure upon me thats when we have problems in that voting dictatorship.


I'm the only person I know who had surgery awake - twice

First was a knee - full cut - torn meniscus repair - spinal block'
Second was L-5 Disc filet. Local anesthesia.

First time was a little scary - It was my first.
I had a friend who was an anesthesiologist he stood by me in case I needed something.
I had another friend who was a hypnotherapist - he walked me through focusing.
The orthopedic surgeon was not happy.

The second time; Look Mom No hands!
I was wide awake and chatting with the neurosurgeon. He was debating out loud if he should fly out of CT for Florida with a blizzard forecast for the next morning.
I told him to go.
Totally relaxed.
He went. Had a great weekend.
I had a fast recovery.

I see no reason/need to criticize this endeavor--

I hope it works really well--

I'm not forseeing slavery or dictatorship--

I do know, from past experience, however, that some people who are good planners can be a bit heavy-handed--

but there can be checks and balances for that--

I just prefer not being part of a collective. Already part of a church, and I'm not collectivistic about that--

I am a reluctant member--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--


That's a cute little play structure in that photo. The first one I've ever seen that is not plastic, in Fisher Price colors. Those children are sweet in their traditional clothing, too.

In Canada there was a semicommunal religio-ethnic group called Dukhobors. In the late 50s, because they wouldn't send their children to public schools, the police (RCMP) raided their homes in the middle of the night, seized the kids, farmed them out, sent them to school, and now they are royally f*cked up adults. Still remembering, still traumatized. They are in their 60s now. Saw them on t.v.

oh, that's terrible!

so sorry to hear that--

when I was in college a man who tried to homeschool his children got killed by federal marshalls, too--

bad stuff--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

All kinds of stories.

There is the case of a German family pesecuted by German govt for homeschooling their family. So they ran away to the USA. But now the govt of USA wants to deport them even though they are good people and would make good citizens. Look at all the scum they let in, though!


The Bruderhof Communities' toys were more expensive than other products but I bought them because I wanted the best imagination stimulating items.
After a few years of my own kids growing up in our child care center all they wanted was the junk at K-Mart and to go to public school. Go figure.


Are you?

Hey hiya howdy!

I'm supposed to do this whole formal thing in the Great Sign. Been so long I forgot. Wanna brew? Cup o coffee?

Be brave, be brave, the Myan pilot needs no aeroplane.

Ok so lemme see if i can remember how to do this

man it has been a long time.

First we reveal ourselves and remain still and see if you approach.

If you approach, chances are you are lost so we make the sign of the 4-directions beginning with east and we say:

Insheeking neeonerat, insheeking neeonerat, insheeking neonerat.

Here is the east and here is the south and here is the west and here is the north. Now you are oriented. You are no longer lost, you are found.

and then we would rise and say wiligishk'u.

Which is a very formal greeting and it means you are now under our protection. If you return with Great Sign, you might just be passing through or you might need help. But you are welcome. You are safe. So we will feed you and water you and see what kind of information we can learn from you.

Wyandotte. Wiligishk'u. I do not know if our people have ever met. I have heard of you. Read about you in books.

Be brave, be brave, the Myan pilot needs no aeroplane.

I am sorry,

...don't be offended, but I don't understand what you are talking about with this stuff:Insheeking neeonerat, insheeking neeonerat, insheeking neonerat.

Do an indiegogo

Like mine: http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/how-to-save-the-rainforest...

And chip-in to mine while you're at it. If you would. I'd be much abliged.

And if you start an indiegogo I'll throw down on the instant (maybe only a few bucks, but I'll add my portion).

I am a sustainable farmer and permaculture gardener. I'd be down to come help get it going.

Jack Wagner

I would pack up and live

I would pack up and live there in an instant...

I'll work the farm, tend the cattle, and do whatever needs to be done..

Where do I sign up?

OK now the big secret.

Sometimes you know something for truth because you find you already knew, you just didn't know you knew it yet.


That one word. Encompasses all. In commune you not only have to trust others with their roles, you are trusting them with YOUR LIFE. And "we" are trusting the "collective" to basically reassure us that if we contribute, again, we won't just be thrown out in the cold.

People come with every skill and talent but we also come with foibles, with illnesses, with various defects of character and one thing you can't do in a commune is keep a secret for long.

If there is a thief. If there is a druggie. Me, well might as well say so now, I can tolerate sobriety for weeks but I have this inner compulsion to have a whopping good time and sing. The only thing that really saves me is in commune, one of my principle sources of joy is having kids around and my sheer enjoyment of children overcomes my appreciation for alcohol. And no, booze is not a pattern I wish to expose our children to.

In commune we are all parents. Trust has to be there and all of your foibles and even things you might not have known about yourself, it all comes to light. It's beyond useless to try and conceal who you are.

But here's this trust thing. It is a simple and profound reality that we voluntarily surrender some of our independence and we replace it with dependence. What if we put in years of work and everybody decides they don't like us anymore? What's our security here? Because we pretty much go all in.

I'd go so far as to call it a marriage. We make a MAJOR COMMITTMENT. Without trust we get defensive, territorial, posessive and protective and we stop contributing out of joy and vitality.

Words that follow along with this trust are love, fidelity, devotion and forgive. Forgive comes in particularly handy.

Now, none of these things can be mail-ordered, trust doesn't come in a box, it has to be forged like cold steel in a hot furnace. A chain is created one link at a time but this is what is durable.


Dwell on that one word for a bit. If this project becomes a reality I think you will find your whole world revolves on it.

Be brave, be brave, the Myan pilot needs no aeroplane.

On a further note, hopefully not too much of a downer....

but every attempt to date to do a "libertarian commune" has resulted in the most hideously catestrophic failure it's been like watching multiple train wrecks in slow motion.

I'm gonna stop short of naming names for the utter, sheer and nakedly blatant futility of it but there's a couple take-aways, a couple patterns that have emerged:

1. We get totally hung up on the whole ownership thing, who owns what, how do we "vest" ourselves economically so we have some security if we put in years of hard work we won't be cast out by some arbitrary process.

Hippies don't have this problem. They to some extent see material posessions and ownership to basically be a drag. Paradoxically by giving up the idea of personal property they are free to enjoy it to full advantage. They don't care who owns it. It's freely shared.

2. God love us, our number one method of internal self improvement is DEBATE. And it is patently charactaristic of us to have to ARGUE ABOUT EVERYTHING. It's wonderful for our ideological cohesion but talkers have this tendency to get up the noses of the doers. In other words our fondness for debate can be a complete recipe for getting ABSOLUTELY NOTHING DONE.

Now what I note the above is these are positives, some of our better attributes are expressed in these forms BUT there's they both have this way of turning around and biting us on the butts. And I don't have a ready-made solution for this. I know what the raw components are but we'd actually have to try it and shake some of these bugs out. I'll tell you the one over-riding secret in another post. That's how important these matters are to me.

Be brave, be brave, the Myan pilot needs no aeroplane.

Aw H-E-double-hockey-sticks yes!

Among us in the liberty movement I'm in something of a minority.

I have lived in commune. I've done cooperative living. For a few years in a religious commune that was pretty strict in terms of personal deportment and far from feeling deprived, I thrived. And I walked away not only with some lifelong friends that I trust absolutely, I picked up 3 trades!

I became a pretty darn good "cutter" (logger), I can operate a skidder and a yarder, I learned chickens and turkeys start to finish and I learned the whole maple-sugaring thing.

I had to quit smoking for a while but they let me make up for it by chewing tobacco like a fiend.

I'm sort of involved with a commune right now but this business of a libertarian or libertarian-friendly commune is, just to be honest, kind of going a bit jangly. There's sort of a pull from one side to make it totally family friendly and another side kinda wanting to have a smoke and a beer in peace. That's slowly resolving to two of the campers being designated as "adults only".

Now what we have pictured here is unlike anything I have ever seen. Terms like "paradise" and "nirvana" come to mind. All those wonderful business entities! I can see just tons of ways for just about anybody to fit in.

There's only one precedent for something of this scale, I'm a great admirer of "Dancing Rabbit Commune" in MO. They have the land and the facilities to not only be self-sustaining, they are hippy capitalists who have successfully monetized their very existence through doing training, retreats and workshops.

I'd hook up with them but unfortunately as hyper-conservatives we kind of carry a stigma of being decidedly "un-mellow". When I asked what their firearms policy was I almost heard a door shut in their minds. I kinda regret that but it's a deal-breaker on both sides. I don't mind living a non-violent LIFESTYLE but I just can't imagine NOT being able to defend people whom I'd be investing so much time and energy into. Even as a former EMT and warrant officer, I never got over my inner repulsion to seeing people suffer. I have to make it better and I don't let anything or anybody stop me.

So anyways, my activist resume reads like a dream and I have the tools, skills and experience to hit the ground running.

I shall watch this project with great interest and enthusiasm, just let me know when you want to start interviewing. It would be a first class act. I don't think anybody has tried something quite of this calibre ever before. Definitely a toothsome challenge.

And my dad's tuxedo might come in handy once again.

Be brave, be brave, the Myan pilot needs no aeroplane.

Smudge Pot, Let me save you some time

River Stone is not a commune.
Life in AmeriKa is too difficult to be distracted with the chaos of communal living.

It's River Stone, not River Stoned
River Stone is

a business,
a living museum,
an educational center,
a big tax deduction,
a place where team members can drink raw milk without being harassed.
River Stone is
a challenge,
a mass of projects,
a place to serve others and be served by others
a place to be respected and demonstrate respect towards others.

River Stone is

a relentless demand to maintain daily discipline -- milk the cows, * paint the barn,
secure the perimeter,
defend the reputation by being an example.

River Stone is a place where

you can have your meals cooked for you.
your living quarters cleaned for you.
your company vehicle maintained for you.
you can travel, your property is vigilantly watched and secured.

River Stone will provide

solid income
health & life insurance
routine medical care by a real doctor
guidance from nutritionists and fitness coaches
access to technology needed to create your vision
committed listeners who will help you focus and stay on track
a personal business manager
support for you in reaching your financial goals
preparation for your retirement if you ever want to.

River Stone is

Where people who abuse the lavish benefits are promptly shown the door. Adios!

Another Dreamer

With the right people this could be an amazing place. I would be interested in this. Not far from where I live. 3-4 hours maybe.
What is needed to make this happen Barracuda?

Donate to the Campaign http://ronpaul2012.com
WNY for Ron Paul Meetup http://meetup.com/wnyforronpaul

Well my strategy has been to

Well my strategy has been to wait the seller out since spring 2010.
He's now 78ish. He's been trying to sell for at least 4 years that I know.
He wants to down size so his wife who is younger doesn't have to deal with liquidation in the event that he precedes.
My going forward is not dependent on DP people joining. It's a matter of timing.
In 2010 I was anticipating trouble from this government.
Even though it's been crazy in D.C. our lives here haven't been effected that much if at all.
This is a massive property and the Foxburg businesses are all big commitments.
Since I've determined that I could easily spend $1 mil./yr. running the place I figure every $1 mil. I get off the price is a year that's paid for.
The price was close to $30 mil. plus when I started looking. A couple of offers by others fell through.
It's down to $19 mil now.
I'd like to get it closer to $15 mil.

Some folks look at this and they're ready to jump. I don't operate that way.

For me this is an alternative to leaving the country.
Both are a lot of work and pains in the butt.

I envision doing what others don't do. Making an offer around Christmas when a seller is resigned to being stuck until spring.

I wish I had a more firm answer. But there are a lot of us who have one foot out of the U.S.S.A..