63 votes

Nystrom said "...bring all your interests here." ~ OK. The Ultimate Liberty Community UPDATE: 3/20

UPDATE: 4/20/2014 I have begun looking for locations in New Hampshire.
Unfortunately my business keeps me nailed down until June. But I am working with a real estate agent. We are sifting through property listings. This is the new thread;
Any Free Staters Here Know 'About New Hampshire?
http://www.dailypaul.com/315318/any-free-staters-here-know-a...
UPDATE: 3/20/2014
The River Stone property deal has fallen apart. In the course of doing the last round of investigation I became aware of an important change in regards to the local gas drilling activity.
When I originally looked at River Stone in 2010, all information indicated that River Stone was out of the way in terms of it's desirability for drilling. There were no collection pipelines for transmitting natural gas then. All indications including low ball lease offers to the seller and my own industry contacts proved that River Stone would be safe from the drilling boom.
That has changed. A few weeks ago I had a conversation with an investment firm's managing partner. He said they were investing almost a billion dollars in drilling infrastructure in that area. Almost simultaneously, the seller was approached with an offer to buy the mineral rights to the property. While I agreed to keep the details of the offer confidential, I can say that the offer was extremely generous compared to some of the highest offers I've heard about. These two pieces of information indicated a very big shift. In addition I became aware of an east west pipeline being promoted by the state of Ohio.
These developments made River Stone too risky to invest in.
So I withdrew from the negotiation process.

The Ultimate Liberty Community
River Stone Estate:
http://www.riverstoneestate.com/
UPDATE 12/20
This guy nailed it.
Submitted by Barracuda_Trader on Fri, 12/20/2013 - 14:29.
http://www.dailypaul.com/comment/3293272

UPDATE: NEW! My Liberty River Stone Photo Album - LOTS OF DETAIL
https://libertyriverstone.shutterfly.com/pictures/9
This is a completely self contained development that has 38 buildings, all restored to pristine condition. On 1200 fertile acres, with endless water resources.
I envision a community of Liberty minded people coming together to run and maintain this operation.
Any Takers?

A Special Event @ River Stone

http://youtu.be/2UuwkwPKKr4

Food production
Profitable farm
1200 acres of resources
Gas wells
Resort potential
River destination
Golf near-by
Dining
The Allegheny Grille
Black Forest Restaurant
Foxburg Pizza & Country Store
Foxburg Wine Cellars
Foxburg Inn
The Allegheny RiverStone Center for Performing Arts
Divani Chocolate Boutique
Prime Outlets Grove City
The Foxburg Country Club
Pine Grove Golf Course
Olde Stonewall
Biking and Hiking
Pennsylvania Great Outdoors
Segway of Western PA
Boating and Fishing
Moraine State Park
Riffle Runner Excursions
Canoing and Kayaking
Parker’s Landing Canoe Livery
Riverview Sportsman Canoe Livery
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And if you like the concept please VOTE it UP!

Help Wanted:
Medical Worker
Experienced Livestock expert
Veterinarian
Bee Keeper
Carpenter
IT Tech
Business Manager
Event Planner
Organic Chef
Experienced Organic farmer
Experienced with Aquaponics and Growing MicroGreens
Experienced with Pond Stocking and Fish Farming
Tallow Chandler(candle maker),
Biofuels pro
Soapmaker
3D Printing Tech
Resource Media Specialist (Librarian)
Solar Energy Specialist

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Love it
Submitted by Michael Nystrom on Thu, 10/24/2013

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How would you decide who gets to come and stay?
BT: Initially I would build a team one-by-one. Then we'd decide as a team on future members.
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I think the former Daily Paul 'all comers welcome' model wouldn't be the model. Prior to entry, people would have to demonstrate their worth to the community. It would be a little harder to ban someone from there, in the physical world, and I'm no one should be so naive to think that peace love and liberty would make things all work out.
BT: Right on all counts
A communist commune? That would be doomed to failure.
BT: Right
There is a model of a similar place in Kunstler's post-apocalyptic novel World Made By Hand. It was a productive place. It had flour! In a world where global payments and communications have broken down, that is no small feat. This place you're showing us also has that capability.
BT: I’d have to read the book. But I've also been talking to this seller for three years now.
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But the devil is in the details. The farm in Kunstler's novel was basically run by one guy as I recall. The benign dictator/monarch model can work fine for a while. The Daily Paul is basically a dictatorship with a self appointed mayor.
BT: We have learned a great deal from being part of the Daily Paul. The kind of lessons that would help avoid many pitfalls in a community like River Stone.
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That is fine for a while, but in the long term it is not stable (for a website, or for a community such as the one you describe). What kind of governance structure do you envision such a place having? It would be a huge operation to run, involving thousands of people.
I like the idea, very much. Like a real world Daily Paul. I'm not a medical worker, but I have some valuable knowledge on community management and relations. :)
- - -
I made it to Taiwan. The time difference is exactly 12 hours. It is 2:30 in the morning. Jet lag woke me up, so I thought I'd check in. I'll have more of an update later, after I've collected my thoughts. But I saw this thread and couldn't help but comment.
- - -
Thanks! Keep it going. BTW, when I ran into my old friend "the market socialist" (Ron Paul Class of 2007) at Whole Foods the other day we talked about the other members of our erstwhile group. One guy, also RP Class of 2007 he said is up in NH living on some kind of a 'liberty commune' (for lack of a better term).
I'll see if I can get in touch with him and see what's going on.
How about a whole network of 'liberty communes' across the country? They'd have to have better names, obviously. Government free zones? But they'd need governments of their own.
- - -
When it was clear that communism was a failure, the Chinese government began experimenting with regulation-free zones. I can see the same thing happening with this country down the line.
Good work BT. Always stay ahead of the pack!

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jefferson1743

I have to run out for an appointment right now. I will reply in detail in a few hours from now.
Thanks.

Sounds like a UN

21st century housing project. Complete with body corporate and endless rules and regulations.
Give me liberty I say.

that or

a twighlight zone/ outter limits set design.

Communes? Absolutely not.

Communes? Absolutely not. Private property is a very important part of a free society. In fact, it's one of the pillars of a free society, and without private property everything crumbles. Having communals is not a libertarian society.

Nystrom made a good point about

the DP experience being a good training for handling the self government of this community.

It would initially be owned by me. I know I won't live forever so I've already worked out some ideas as to passing the property on to the core leaders.

This is not a commune and in time "owners" will emerge based on their level of leadership and initiative.

These leaders would be guided by competent legal and accounting professionals to protect their future interests.

This thing is not a 'dreamy' utopia idea. It's a refuge for people of principle vs ideology. The 'founders' would live like royalty compared to most Americans yet they would be hard working responsible team mates who just want to be left alone and at a safe distance from urban hell holes.

60k

In taxes plus electricity and insurance and upkeep. Perhaps it might be better to hold off till the next housing bubble imo. Any chance of flooding?

Liberty oriented persons have always sought higher ground.

donvino

Michael Nystrom's picture

When the next housing bubble pops,

everything might go down with it.

At that point, you'd be better off with possession (not to mention title) of the land, than trying to save a few million off the sale price.

Yes, it will cost a lot to maintain, but clearly this is a productive asset. Properly managed, it can pay for itself.

The only way to make sense out of change is to plunge into it, move with it, and join the dance. - Alan Watts

Flooding

When I saw the photo the first thing I thought was nice bottom land for farming. But it sure looks like flood plain to me. Do you know where the high water mark is ?

Tin Pan

Any chance of flooding?

No all boundaries to the rivers are steep cliffs with trails that you take to access the river.

A few bits of info on costs

Subject: Answers to Questions from Prospective Buyer. Drew

Here is a list of the questions that the potential buyer has for Dr. Steffee. These are his own questions in his own words. I just copied them in this email for you.

1. How many people are there that maintain the estate?

1) The number of people depends on: the season, more needed April to October; the amount of groundskeeping undertaken, specifically the mowing program, flower and plant beds maintenance; painting, repairs and preventative maintenance. Currently there are six people tasked with groundskeeping. this number will spike at times. Some fields are mowed for hay production both square and round bales and often pastures are mowed. Approximately 100 acres are mowed in a 7 to 14 day cycle, many of the flower beds are in perennials. At least a part time mechanic is required to repair equipment to reduce the amount of repairs by higher cost outside vendors, as well as a housekeeper as one warrants and prefers.

2. What are the costs to maintain the estate on a yearly basis?

2) Maintenance costs for 2009 have not yet been provided by the accountant. However direct labor approaches with taxes and no benefits....$ 280,000.00 Fuel and Repairs $ 50,000.00 Upkeep charges range materials etc. $ 50,000.00 Outside repairs and parts $ 50,000.00 ......unforeseen and incidentals.... $50.000.00. or $ 400,000.00 to $ 500,000.00.

3. What are the operational costs for the estate?

3) Operational costs in way of Taxes $ 58,000.00 .....Utilities Gas $ 48,000.00 Electric $ 9,600.00 Insurance exceeds $40,000.00, currently being requoted with recalculated coverage. There is the potential gas costs will be reduced or completely off set by free gas and royalties from a shallow gas lease now in place. Also there is long range potential of revenue from probable leasing of the Marcellus Shale Gas to off set both operational and maintenance costs.

4) Is there a description or list of mechanical features? i.e. AMP level of electrical service, on-site generator(s), HVAC systems, What percentage of the heat comes from the natural gas well? Water supply? Gallons per minute? Filtration systems?
4)There is a list of all the mechanicals. The main house has 600 amp service and the other homes has 400 amp service. There are 3 generators onsite. All the homes run on natural gas.(none from a well). The water is from a spring that pumps 20 gallons per minute and it flows into a 5000 and 1000 gallons tanks. There is no need for a filtration system on the water.

5) Regarding the Foxburg Wine Cellar, Is it soley a retail business? Is there any wine making or vinyard operation involved?
5)It is a retail business. They do the winemaking from juice that they buy from Ferdonia. They also just got a license to make (moonshine) up to 24% alcohol at the winery.

River Stone Estate Winery

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-a0kVEZ8xens/TdVYSjof2xI/AAAAAAAABSk/yaobXOU2L7g/s1600/Ted%2Band%2BLorraine%2BKane.JPG

Thursday, May 19, 2011
Class of 2011: River Stone Estate Winery
Photo: Lorraine and Ted Kane

Among this year’s new Okanagan winery owners, River Stone Estate Winery’s Ted Kane stands out for his intense and driven passion to be in the wine business.
http://johnschreiner.blogspot.com/2011/05/class-of-2011-rive...

Dozens of random photos

Every detail has been thought of and addressed.
http://tinyurl.com/ky3jljh

The site says there's 26 structures...

If you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost; that is where they should be. Now put the foundations under them.
- Henry David Thoreau

It was probably the pandas.

You might be right Chris, but

You might be right Chris, but I'm pretty sure there are more. I have some docs in a folder with ALL the details. I will check later.

I've been building my foundation for over two years. Buyers have come and gone but I'm still in the conversation with them. And the price has gone from $35 million to $19 million. So you could say I've 'earned' $16 million by waiting and watching. That's what traders do.

This property could not be duplicated for less than $75-80 million.

This was a dilapidated dump just 10 years ago

A retired doctor who sold his medical appliance business for 300 million, Dr. Steffee and his wife oversaw all of the work and did a lot of work themselves.
He rebuilt and improved every aspect of Riverstone and Built a hotel and restaurant in Foxburg.

Dr. Steffee still works the farm with help.

Imagine what a corps of younger committed people could do.

The hotel and restaurant are also for sale in town.
He is preparing for retirement.

It's all in the description on the website http://www.riverstoneestate.com/

Medical WorkerExperienced

Medical Worker
Experienced Livestock expert
Veterinarian
Bee Keeper
Carpenter
IT Tech
Business Manager
Event Planner
Organic Chef
Experienced Organic farmer
Experienced with Aquaponics and Growing MicroGreens
Experienced with Pond Stocking and Fish Farming
Tallow Chandler(candle maker),
Biofuels pro
Soapmaker
3D Printing Tech
Resource Media Specialist (Librarian)
Solar Energy Specialist
Farrier
Blacksmith
Carriage Builder

Michael Nystrom's picture

Love it

How would you decide who gets to come and stay?

I think the former Daily Paul 'all comers welcome' model wouldn't be the model. Prior to entry, people would have to demonstrate their worth to the community. It would be a little harder to ban someone from there, in the physical world, and I'm no one should be so naive to think that peace love and liberty would make things all work out.

A communist commune? That would be doomed to failure.

There is a model of a similar place in Kunstler's post-apocalyptic novel World Made By Hand. It was a productive place. It had flour! In a world where global payments and communications have broken down, that is no small feat. This place you're showing us also has that capability.

But the devil is in the details. The farm in Kunstler's novel was basically run by one guy as I recall. The benign dictator/monarch model can work fine for a while. The Daily Paul is basically a dictatorship with a self appointed mayor.

That is fine for a while, but in the long term it is not stable (for a website, or for a community such as the one you describe). What kind of governance structure do you envision such a place having? It would be a huge operation to run, involving thousands of people.

I like the idea, very much. Like a real world Daily Paul. I'm not a medical worker, but I have some valuable knowledge on community management and relations.

:)

- - -

I made it to Taiwan. The time difference is exactly 12 hours. It is 2:30 in the morning. Jet lag woke me up, so I thought I'd check in. I'll have more of an update later, after I've collected my thoughts. But I saw this thread and couldn't help but comment.

- - -

Thanks! Keep it going. BTW, when I ran into my old friend "the market socialist" (Ron Paul Class of 2007) at Whole Foods the other day we talked about the other members of our erstwhile group. One guy, also RP Class of 2007 he said is up in NH living on some kind of a 'liberty commune' (for lack of a better term).

I'll see if I can get in touch with him and see what's going on.

How about a whole network of 'liberty communes' across the country? They'd have to have better names, obviously. Government free zones? But they'd need governments of their own.

- - -

When it was clear that communism was a failure, the Chinese government began experimenting with regulation-free zones. I can see the same thing happening with this country down the line.

Good work BT. Always stay ahead of the pack!

The only way to make sense out of change is to plunge into it, move with it, and join the dance. - Alan Watts

What kind of governance

What kind of governance structure do you envision such a place having?
I would be the HNC

It would be a huge operation to run, involving thousands of people.
Right now 38 people run the Estate

Michael Nystrom's picture

HNC?

The Head Nut Case? Because you'd have to be crazy to take something like this on :)

Just kidding. What does HNC mean?

For some reason my mind tends towards apocalyptic visions with something like this, and that reminded me of this place that I heard about on the radio:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2344975/Inside-Kansa...

But it doesn't have to be that. People have been waiting for "the end of the world" for a long time.

Is this something you're really considering, or just toying around with right now? Please keep us posted!

The only way to make sense out of change is to plunge into it, move with it, and join the dance. - Alan Watts

Head _igger in Charge

That would be me.
But it's PC because I'm Sicilian and when my ancestors were invaded but Attila the Hun, the women went black.
http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/China_2.htm

Hi effin larious....

so you know about when the Moors invaded Sicily.(referenced by Dennis Hopper's character in the film True Romance in order to offend Chris Walken's character thus killing DH's chsaracter before he had to betray his son under duress)

Aaron Russo, Nikola Tesla, Ron Paul, I'm jus' sayin'

Communal Living?

The only way this could work out is with ownership. Communal living has never worked out as far as I know.. Liberty and Private Property go hand in hand don't they? Even in a company most businesses owners want to be the sole owners so they don't have to deal with lazy partners...That being said there is certainly appeal in all of this..You'd just have to work out how you'd kick someone out not pulling their weight. Perhaps they own their dwelling and work out in the collective and equally share dividends?

Based on abilities and effort

People would own equity which could be returned if they wanted out or were determined to deserve being out.

This would not be a "commune" in the strict sense of the word.

The focus would be the enterprises that support the lifestyle NOT the lifestyle. The lifestyle would be the product of each individual's sense of industry, initiative and achievement.

Are you a skilled...

Medical Worker
Experienced Livestock expert
Veterinarian
Bee Keeper
Carpenter
IT Tech
Business Manager
Event Planner
Organic Chef
Experienced Organic farmer
Experienced with Aquaponics and Growing MicroGreens
Experienced with Pond Stocking and Fish Farming

Found a handy list of people we'd need at this website...

http://www.yellowpages.com/

It was probably the pandas.

You're a riot!

C.C.

How about a chandler, a transesterifier, and a saponifier?

In other words, a candle maker, a biofuels pro, and a soapmaker?

Also, there would need to be a 3D printing shoppe as well as a lending library...

It was probably the pandas.

Can't get the riverstone link to work.

In concept I love it! :)