31 votes

What is so interesting about you that you're worth spying on?

Serious question. I stole it from the first chapter of Jaron Lanier's new book, Who Owns the Future?

We all know that the NSA is spying on us. But he's not talking about the NSA, bur rather the cookies. There are as many as 17 trackers on this site alone, as an alert DPer pointed out. This is news to me. It is not me who is doing that tracking, but likely Google, and those other guys - the loathesome bikini advertisers. They're all watching you from the Cloud. They are the eye in the sky, wherever you go, across the World Wide Web.

But why? To return to Lanier's question, What is so interesting about you that you're worth spying on?

Lanier continues:

The cloud is driven by statistics, and even in the worst individual cases of personal ignorance, dullness, idleness or irrelevance, every person is constantly feeding data into the cloud these days. The value of such information could be treated as genuine, but it is not. Instead, the blindness of our standards of accounting to all that value is gradually breaking capitalism.

I could continue typing, but I would risk copyright infringement, and further, it would blow your mind / bore you to tears / make you scoff at how ridiculous you think it is, depending on how you are predisposed toward thinking about the current technology revolution that we're living through.

So let's wait on that for now and ponder the question: What is so interesting about you that you're worth spying on?



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don't you know already?

sheesh, where have you been.

Just remember this. Every time you get something for free- you are the product.

Every time you get something

Every time you get something for free- you are the product.
Every time you get something for free- you are the product.
Every time you get something for free- you are the product.
Every time you get something for free- you are the product.
Every time you get something for free- you are the product.

Michael Nystrom's picture

Not only are you the product, you are the raw material

You're not just the product on the Daily Paul. Google is selling your data multiple times, as is everyone else who is out scraping the free internet.

Your value goes way beyond just being the product. You're data is sliced and diced and sold and resold and copied and pasted and reconstituted and sold again, a dozen times over.

How much did you get for that, for being you? Oh. You got to share your opinion.

Meanwhile, Google made $50 Billion in 2012.

This is a big part of Lanier's beef. We're all raw material, and our accounting input is valued at: Zero.

Still, I'm only a quarter of the way through the book, so I haven't gotten to the meat of his argument yet.

Just a heads up.

He's the man.

50 billion

wow. impressive. all from mining people.

Very Good "Rule of Thumb"

.

Hey Michael, here is a site that tracks web usage.

Have you ever seen this?
It’s sold as a tool to help price your advertising.

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/dailypaul.com

I have NO experience in this field, just came across it and if you haven’t seen the data, thought you might find it interesting.

Wow - what a trolly thing to say.

>>>

I must have gone through some extra special effort to have posted this far eh?

Defeat the panda-industrial complex

I am dusk icon. anagram me.

Right idea, wrong question.

The question really isn't 'what is so interesting about me?' The real question, and the real problem the system faces is: 'What is so interesting to me that I'm worth spying on?"

My interests include biofuels - especially when made from algae, electronic currencies, 3D printing, journalism, activism, Austrian economics, Ron Paul, education, preparation, gardening, philosophy, hidden video photography, jury nullification. All things that are a threat to the system.

What I know about playing music may be interesting, but what I know about the corruption in the local police department makes me dangerous.

Defeat the panda-industrial complex

I am dusk icon. anagram me.

Michael Nystrom's picture

How to make money on a network

Lanier provides another clue, further on in the book. I'm not normally this slow of a reader with this interesting of a book, but I've got other things going on here at the moment.

This is at Loc 592 in my Kindle version (I don't know what that means, but that's what it says). After talking about how money "used to" forget - i.e. how cash is anonymous, but now we're moving more and more toward electronic currency that leaves a record of every transaction (we all know now that includes bitcoin)"

Even legitimate commerce can become a little scammy when some money remembers more than other money. There's an old cliche that goes, "If you want to make money in gambling, own a casino. " The new version is "If you want to make money on a network, own the most meta server." If you own the fastest computers with the most access to everyone's information, you can just search for money and it will appear.

Who owns the most meta servers? I think it is obvious that at this point in time, it is Google. Then check this out:

An opaque, elite server that remembers everything money used to forget, placed at the center of human affairs, begins to resemble certain ideas about God.

- - - -

It comes back to predictive power as I mentioned below. It is not about the bikini ads, it is about the network that serves them; the network that we, because we spend so much time online now, for all intents and purposes, live in.

It is a great book.

The future keeps unfolding. Technology is not going to stop. No one really knows where it is taking us.

He's the man.

Which is why cash will always

Which is why cash will always be king.

"Cash is king."

Ever have to have a plumber or heating/air conditioning technician come to your house? How much does the bill go down if you pay him in cash? Depends who you hire to do the job, but let's say it's your brother's best friend? $300 cash or $400 on the Amex?

Credit cards suck for the average businessman. Digital money sucks for the average person who does not want to be tracked and traced like an ant on the farm.

But most people don't know that when they swipe their credit card at a mom and pop shop locally owned business, they are taking money out of the entrepreneur's pockets and putting it in to the credit card processing companies and banks coffers.

I can't stand it when people pay for something that costs less than $10 with a credit card. Each swipe of the card costs me money, plus a fixed percentage on top of the sale. By the time the transaction is over, I lost almost 10% of my profit. Multiply that X 100 customers a day 6 days a week and things really start to add up.

So much to the point where I had to RAISE my prices just to keep up with so many damn credit cards.

As a percentage of my sales, credit cards used to be about 25%. Now they're at about 50%.

"Oh, the price went up."

Yeh, because you keeping using your freaking credit/debit card to pay for a cup of coffee!

Never be afraid to ask simple questions.

Republicae's picture

I was not sure what they

I was not sure what they might be interested in, that is until I sent a FOIA request to the NSA. In my request I stated that I wished all documents and information "gathered, obtained, observed by the NSA or any other governmental or extra-governmental agency with the intent of surveillance, as well as "the purpose of such surveillance and the political reasoning behind it".

I received my FOIA Case: 75231 this weekend. With a 3 page letter explaining just how the NSA/CSS, (National Security Agency/Central Security Service, Fort George G. Meade, Maryland, 20755-6000) was attempting to Keep America Safe and that I should be "aware that one of the missions of the NSA/CSS is to collect, process and disseminate communications or signals intelligence information for intelligence and counter intelligence purposes. That the NSA/CSS is authorized to engage in these activities in order to prevent and protect against terrorist attacks, the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, intelligence activities against the United States, international criminal drug activities and other hostile activities directed against the United States. The roles and responsibilities that the NSA/CSS exercises are delineated in Executive Order 12333, as amended."

The letter went on and on justifying the actions and authority of the NSA/CSS, then comes the good part:

It was 8 pages of information that was primarily redacted (blackened out), from what I could gather much of it had to do with my writings, in particular my blog, which I already was aware had been banned on federal servers overseas. My friends in the military informed me several years ago that it was blocked on their computers that used federal servers, of course, I had another friend in China tell me that the RED Chinese also blocked my blog, which is to be expected.

So, yes, they are looking at us...Freedom/Liberty Minded Patriots are in their sights!

http://militantjeffersonian.com

"We are not a nation, but a union, a confederacy of equal and sovereign States" John C. Calhoun

Absurd! Freedom of information... in our own words... redacted?

I am astonished to hear those governing us have the audacity to redact from our own writing before answering our Freedom of Information request. How is it that our own words should be redacted before returning them to us?

Have they endless spare time on their hands? Egg on their faces?

Disclaimer: Mark Twain (1835-1910-To be continued) is unlicensed. His river pilot's license went delinquent in 1862. Caution advised. Daily Paul

Republicae's picture

I thought it odd myself and a

I thought it odd myself and a complete waste of both time and money! But when we consider the logic that is behind such government bureaucracies is it any wonder that such things are common place?

http://militantjeffersonian.com

"We are not a nation, but a union, a confederacy of equal and sovereign States" John C. Calhoun

Michael Nystrom's picture

Republicae, I look forward to hearing more about this

I hope you'll put something together for us. I enjoyed your last piece on the Structural Cracks in the System.

He's the man.
Republicae's picture

I will definitely keep you

I will definitely keep you updated, especially when some of the other FOIA request come in...and thanks!

http://militantjeffersonian.com

"We are not a nation, but a union, a confederacy of equal and sovereign States" John C. Calhoun

Collection of My Thoughts on Your Question. Regards, Mark Twain

Mark Twain Collection including A Double Barrelled Detective Story & Joan of Arc by Mark Twain.

A Double Barrelled Detective Story, Part II, Hope Canyon Silver Mine Camp, 1900.

The next afternoon the village was electrified with an immense sensation. A grave and dignified foreigner of distinguished bearing and appearance had arrived at the tavern, and entered this formidable name upon the register:

    Sherlock Holmes

The news buzzed from cabin to cabin, from claim to claim; tools were dropped, and the town swarmed toward the center of interest. A man passing out at the northern end of the village shouted it to Pat Riley, whose claim was the next one to Flint Buckner's. At that time Fetlock Jones seemed to turn sick. He muttered to himself,
"Uncle Sherlock! The mean luck of it!—that he should come just when...." He dropped into a reverie, and presently said to himself: "But what's the use of being afraid of him? Anybody that knows him the way I do knows he can't detect a crime except...
A Double Barrelled Detective Story, by Mark Twain, 1902. Project Gutenberg eBook(fee online in various formats).

Disclaimer: Mark Twain (1835-1910-To be continued) is unlicensed. His river pilot's license went delinquent in 1862. Caution advised. Daily Paul

Nystrom might be onto something...

Predictive power
Submitted by Michael Nystrom on Sun, 11/10/2013 - 23:41. Permalink
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I understand this fear of the government, but I'm not so interested in the government's motives. Those are fairly obvious. It is the private companies - the Google's & the Facebooks that are more intersting. They're the ones doing the primary collection and analysis; it is the government that is piggybacking on their work.
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So instead, imagine if that student is Google. How are they going to use all that info?
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I don't think Facebook is interested in blackmailing me, or whacking me. They'd be killing their golden goose.
.
What I'm interested in is how these private companies are going to use the info.
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The reasons the government want to spy are pretty obvious, but the reasons the private companies do it are different.Predictive power
Submitted by Michael Nystrom on Sun, 11/10/2013 - 23:41. Permalink
.
I understand this fear of the government, but I'm not so interested in the government's motives. Those are fairly obvious. It is the private companies - the Google's & the Facebooks that are more intersting. They're the ones doing the primary collection and analysis; it is the government that is piggybacking on their work.
.
So instead, imagine if that student is Google. How are they going to use all that info?
.
I don't think Facebook is interested in blackmailing me, or whacking me. They'd be killing their golden goose.
.
What I'm interested in is how these private companies are going to use the info.
.
The reasons the government want to spy are pretty obvious, but the reasons the private companies do it are different.

My take;
The 'collector' corporations are getting paid to assemble the data.
Our massive financial and retail complex needs to know two things;
a) What are people going to buy?
b) How do we find the hackers and thieves, either before they hit us or immediately after?
Just imagine John McCain going on TV and saying those two things.
That's why they always invoke the "national security" thing -
EVEN THOUGH WE HAVE BEEN WHACKED SEVERAL TIMES
Boston Marathon
IRS scandal
2008 collapse
Benghazi
Fast and furious
The only crooks they catch are those who are not INSIDE government.
Here is a full list of the administration’s most egregious scandals. The ones we know about, at least. I’ve added four since the last time we ran the list – an increase of 20 percent!

1. IRS targets Obama’s enemies: The IRS targeted conservative and pro-Israel groups prior to the 2012 election. Questions are being raised about why this occurred, who ordered it, whether there was any White House involvement and whether there was an initial effort to hide who knew about the targeting and when.

2. Benghazi: This is actually three scandals in one:

The failure of administration to protect the Benghazi mission.
The changes made to the talking points in order to suggest the attack was motivated by an anti-Muslim video
The refusal of the White House to say what President Obama did the night of the attack

3. Watching the AP: The Justice Department performed a massive cull of Associated Press reporters’ phone records as part of a leak investigation.

4. Rosengate: The Justice Department suggested that Fox News reporter James Rosen is a criminal for reporting about classified information and subsequently monitored his phones and emails.

5. Potential Holder perjury I: Attorney General Eric Holder told Congress he had never been associated with “potential prosecution” of a journalist for perjury when in fact he signed the affidavit that termed Rosen a potential criminal.

6. The ATF “Fast and Furious” scheme: Allowed weapons from the U.S. to “walk” across the border into the hands of Mexican drug dealers. The ATF lost track of hundreds of firearms, many of which were used in crimes, including the December 2010 killing of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry.

7. Potential Holder Perjury II: Holder told Congress in May 2011 that he had just recently heard about the Fast and Furious gun walking scheme when there is evidence he may have known much earlier.

8. Sebelius demands payment: HHS Secretary Kathleen Sebelius solicited donations from companies HHS might regulate. The money would be used to help her sign up uninsured Americans for ObamaCare.

9. The Pigford scandal: An Agriculture Department effort that started as an attempt to compensate black farmers who had been discriminated against by the agency but evolved into a gravy train delivering several billion dollars in cash to thousands of additional minority and female farmers who probably didn’t face discrimination.

10. GSA gone wild: The General Services Administration in 2010 held an $823,000 training conference in Las Vegas, featuring a clown and a mind readers. Resulted in the resignation of the GSA administrator.

11. Veterans Affairs in Disney World: The agency wasted more than $6 million on two conferences in Orlando. An assistant secretary was fired.

12. Sebelius violates the Hatch Act: A U.S. special counsel determined that Sebelius violated the Hatch Act when she made “extemporaneous partisan remarks” during a speech in her official capacity last year. During the remarks, Sebelius called for the election of the Democratic candidate for governor of North Carolina.

13. Solyndra: Republicans charged the Obama administration funded and promoted its poster boy for green energy despite warning signs the company was headed for bankruptcy. The administration also allegedly pressed Solyndra to delay layoff announcements until after the 2010 midterm elections.

14. AKA Lisa Jackson: Former EPA Administrator Lisa Jackson used the name “Richard Windsor” when corresponding by email with other government officials, drawing charges she was trying to evade scrutiny.

15. The New Black Panthers: The Justice Department was accused of using a racial double standard in failing to pursue a voter intimidation case against Black Panthers who appeared to be menacing voters at a polling place in 2008 in Philadelphia.

16. Waging war all by myself: Obama may have violated the Constitution and both the letter and the spirit of the War Powers Resolution by attacking Libya without Congressional approval.

17. Biden bullies the press: Vice President Biden’s office has repeatedly interfered with coverage, including forcing a reporter to wait in a closet, making a reporter delete photos, and editing pool reports.

18. AKPD not A-OK: The administration paid millions to the former firm of then-White House adviser David Axelrod, AKPD Message and Media, to promote passage of Obamacare. Some questioned whether the firm was hired to help pay Axelrod $2 million AKPD owed him.

19. Sestak, we’ll take care of you: Former White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel used Bill Clinton as an intermediary to probe whether former Rep. Joe Sestak (D-Pa.) would accept a prominent, unpaid White House advisory position in exchange for dropping out of the 2010 primary against former Sen. Arlen Specter (D-Pa.).

20. I’ll pass my own laws: Obama has repeatedly been accused of making end runs around Congress by deciding which laws to enforce, including the decision not to deport illegal immigrants who may have been allowed to stay in the United States had Congress passed the “Dream Act.”

21. The hacking of Sharyl Attkisson’s computer: It’s not clear who hacked the CBS reporter’s computer as she investigated the Benghazi scandal, but the Obama administration and its allies had both the motive and the means to do it.

22. An American Political Prisoner: The sudden decision to arrest Nakoula Basseley Nakoula on unrelated charges after protests in the Arab world over his anti-Muslim video is an extraordinarily suspicious coincidence. “We’re going to go out and we’re going to prosecute the person that made that video,” Hillary Clinton allegedly told the father of one of the ex-SEALs killed in Banghazi.

23. Get rid of inconvenient IGs: Corporation for National and Community Service Inspector General Gerald Walpin was fired in 2009 as he fought wasteful spending and investigated a friend of Obama’s, Sacramento Mayor and former NBA player Kevin Johnson. The White House says Walpin was incompetent.

24. Influence peddling: An investigation is underway of Alejandro Mayorkas, director of the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, who has been nominated by Obama for the number two post at the Department of Homeland Security. Mayorkas may have used his position to unfairly obtain U.S. visas for foreign investors in company run by Hillary Clinton’s brother, Anthony Rodman.

Google and any other company funded with In-Q-Tel money

IS THE GOVERNMENT!

Aaron Russo, Nikola Tesla, Ron Paul, I'm jus' sayin'

Michael Nystrom's picture

Hey BT - I just learned of a new feature for my Kindle

With a little plugin for firefox, I can highlight something in my page, then use the little plugin to "Send highlighted text to my kindle."

I share this with you because that is what I just did with your comment. You've written a veritable book. I hope that I will have something intelligent to respond after reading it.

Thank you.

He's the man.

Like every other oppressive

Like every other oppressive tool in the USG tool box, it's all about money and control a.k.a. force.
This drag net is the ultimate "public private" partnership. There's something to attract and appease everyone;
"You like national security? We got national security."
"You like safe banking? We got safe banking."
"You want tailored discount coupons? We got coupons just for you."
"You like trending stuff? We got trending stuff."

My California contacts love all the tracking and mind reading retailers do.

How Retail Stores Track You Using Your Smartphone (and How to Stop It)
http://lifehacker.com/how-retail-stores-track-you-using-your...
When you walk into a brick and mortar retail store like a Nordstrom, Cabela, or even Family Dollar, you're being tracked around the store. Not by an over-suspicious security guard, but by the store's wireless network, using your phone's Wi-Fi. The store then uses your phone to track you around the store, determine if you're a repeat visitor, see what departments you visit, and more. Here's how they do it, and how to stop them.

none of your business, that's

none of your business, that's what

23

There's a very big difference

There's a very big difference between the NSA spying on you and websites using cookies. First and foremost, most of the spying on you done by the NSA/gov is illegal.

Website cookies are useful for web businesses for a few reasons. One is that cookies can be used to make websites function better, often by saving choices that you make or to keep you logged in when you want that.

When it comes to website tracking, if you're referring to ad networks tracking you across multiple websites, this is done for an important economic reason. Back in the late 90s it was not uncommon for any average website to be earning $10 to $20 per thousand pages viewed. Today that number is usually less than $1. Sometimes much less than $1 per thousand pages viewed. Primary reason is that most people understand web navigation now and can tell the difference between ads, so the ads are less effective. Many websites would be offline / out of business if they did not find ways to make the ads more valuable. By tracking computers (computers, because they are not actually tracking YOU unless you give that info to the ad networks) they can determine what you are interested in then show you ads for products or services that match your interest. For example, someone who always visits hunting and fishing websites would probably start seeing more hunting and fishing ads (even on the DP). That sort of ad targeting makes the advertising more profitable and helps better keep sites like the DP and others funded & operating.

Now, if the ad networks were handing that data over to the government which was connecting the data to your individual profile or household profile, without a warrant, I think there would be very serious reasons to be concerned about that.

...

It's mostly about creating

It's mostly about creating the chilling effect and watching what you say in public or private. You generally keep quiet about making threats, who you're going to kill and for what reason, and things like that.

Here's a Michael Nystrom scenario

Information is about control and access.

Imagine if you are a student writing a paper. You know EVERYTHING about your teacher. Let's call him 'Michael Nystrom'.

Favorite color, things that bore him, what interests him. History of grading different styles of writing. How he weights different components of papers. (Style, conciseness, grammar, content, presentation, etc)

You could blackmail him if he's not destined for sainthood.

You could destroy his reputation since you know all his contacts.

You could bankrupt him since you know all his business and banking information.

You could "whack" him since you know all his movements and routines.

Now imagine if that student is the government.

Michael Nystrom's picture

Predictive power

I understand this fear of the government, but I'm not so interested in the government's motives. Those are fairly obvious. It is the private companies - the Google's & the Facebooks that are more intersting. They're the ones doing the primary collection and analysis; it is the government that is piggybacking on their work.

So instead, imagine if that student is Google. How are they going to use all that info?

I don't think Facebook is interested in blackmailing me, or whacking me. They'd be killing their golden goose.

What I'm interested in is how these private companies are going to use the info.

The reasons the government want to spy are pretty obvious, but the reasons the private companies do it are different.

He's the man.

Companies such as Google and Facebook

Need to collect and collate such data in order to break down visits, ad clicks, game clicks and secondary sites.

Not only does this help them identify trends to further their own business models, but it also breaks down demographics for their advertisers.

No different than how some businesses ask for your postal code and phone number when you make a purchase. Quite often a marketer will phone you later to do a survey. It's basically the exact same quest for customer data that Google and Facebook are trying to get.

If and when companies misuse, lose or have data stolen they will lose customers. The more it happens, the more customers they will lose. Therefore, it is extremely unlikely they will misuse data.

Misuse of government power is not some crackpot conspiracy theory.
Misuse of government power is a constant.

Fearing the government is not logical. Being vigilant and exposing government misuse of powers is a responsibility of every citizen in order to uphold the Constitution and strengthen the Republic.

Michael Nystrom's picture

Good point

Fearing the government is not logical. Being vigilant and exposing government misuse of powers is a responsibility of every citizen in order to uphold the Constitution and strengthen the Republic.

This should be a mantra.

I have some additional clues, which I'll post above under "Making money on a network."

He's the man.

Well you just nailed it. But it's no less threatening.

I worked a bar for a while and I found out there's a lot of ways to make money as a bartender. Everybody wants something different and it's not just the booze.

Groups want one range of things, individuals another. Some want to be joked with, treated like movie stars, some want some help in the romance dept. as in who is likely to bed and a bit of introductions, many come for companionship and will pay almost anything to get it, some want to be left alone. Some like to talk, some like to listen. Everybody has a "profile" in terms of what I can do for you. What I can sell you or otherwise get you to tip me for.

A gal will bring her friends. The loner at the bar might be somebody with something you can power-barter with. Maybe he's an employer. Maybe he's got a boat and will get a group together to go boating and bring everybody back to my bar. I actually kept a local building inspector constantly freshened up with free Heinecken bottles as long as he sat there. I know where you find an apartment, I am where you get hooked in, I get you access, I smooth your way, I help you be the person you want to be. I hook you up with the right people. I make you appealing to whom you want to appeal to. Want to date that hipster girl? Our bro the DJ has the CD you want to play on the way to the gig. Want to meet that professional man? First we need to take you shopping.

See there's a few forms of currency for the smart bartender or bar manager. You can only really sell booze and charge at the door but there's cash gratuities, often gratuities in the form of drugs, there's favor-trading (need a limo?) and then there's just taking advantage of windfalls. I got the best deals on pretty much everything. I was positioned to score the best and cheapest places to live, the best deals on used cars, I got invited to plan parties where I was one of the guests (along the lines of please come to my house and throw one of your massive parties).

Now just think of all that in terms of strategic partnerships and joint ventures. It's all market positioning. I'm taking what I know about you and I'm sharing parts of it out, I'm steering you towards where I want you to be. I'm using all of it to my advantage.

That was what I knew then. Before I was really intellectually capable of imagining myself getting old and how me and my customers needs have evolved over time. And how I might hook their kids and their kids' friends into the bar. Heh heh heh.

MUA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

Be brave, be brave, the Myan pilot needs no aeroplane.

Michael Nystrom's picture

I never worked as a bartender, unless you count the Daily Paul

Interesting observations. I never worked as a bartender, but I once took a tour of the Buckman Tavern, up in Lexington MA, which is right next to the Green where they started the Revolution.

The Buckman Tavern (and all taverns of the day) was exactly the place you describe. It was a trading post of information. When you arrived in town, you showed up at the tavern to check out the latest buzz.

Around that time, that was the 2007 era - I imagined the DP as something like the Buckman Tavern.

Now it is more like a seedy, broken down joint in Chinatown. There's a lot of brawlers at the bar. They like to get drunk and start fights. But there are the regulars in the back. Lurking. Keeping an eye on things.

I have some more observations on the book in a new comment (which I am about to write) above.

He's the man.

Sounds sorta like the old Biobrewer's Bar and Grill:

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/frm/f/719109771

Come in, belly up to the bar, and have a cold one. Everyone is welcome. Park your problems at the door. No fightin', cussin' or spittin' on the floor, or you get bounced outta here. This is a classy joint and we want to keep it that way. This place is new so watch out for the wet paint. There is a free juke box in the corner, a pool table, and unlimited seating. The beverages are cold, the grill is hot, and for now I will be tending bar. I am a drinkin' bartend so I have already popped the top on a long neck behind the bar waiting for the crowd to roll in. You don't have to stay long if you don't have the time, but at least stop in and say Hi!!! You never know who is going to walk through the door. Your bartender, Big Mike

All the off-topic biodiesel/grease car conversations happen there. Unless you're talking algae...
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/frm/f/1501000031

Defeat the panda-industrial complex

I am dusk icon. anagram me.