14 votes

Live Bitcoin Debate Challange

Is there any credible DP'er here who is anti-Bitcoin that would like to do a live video debate so we can thrash things out?

I am sick of the endless name calling that gets thrown around in every bitcoin thread.

If you are brave enough to face me in a live video debate for all the DP world to see, then step forward and prove your case for why Bitcoin is a:
1) Scam
2) Ponzi
3) disaster in the making
4) fools gold or,
5) any other slander you can throw at it.

Sorry for the frustrated tone, but the passionate ignorance and lack of curiosity of the uninformed is just far too painful to read.

Not to mention slowing down the move to end Fiat.

***Post update***

Doggy-dog world has asked that I define the debate specifically, and have it in a medium other than video.

Here are my suggestions.

The debate topic

Engaging in the Bitcoin community is the best example of activism for the majority of freedom lovers.
I am in the affirmative. Looking for a naysayer.

To give you a heads up of my strategy. I will be employing the following chain of logic.

Crypto-currency, is the most powerful tool in the Libertarian arsenal to create a free world, and Bitcoin is at present the most likely brand of that tool to succeed.

As for the format. I dont care so much. If you want to make it formal
3 mins each, 5 mins each, 5 mins each,5 mins each.

If you are happy to let a moderator just try to make it the most enjoyable and entertaining debate possible, I am happy to do that also.

Or if you want to treat it as a Super informal Q&A, you can just throw objections at me and we can discuss them like adults.

As for the medium. I will be on video, because I think putting the debate on youtube will help lots of others understand the power of Bitcoin.

If you are uncomfortable with video, then you can just phone in.



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Mark of the Beast, maybe??

I wonder if Bit Coin is the infamous "Mark of the Beast" spoken of in the Bible.

Cant buy or sell without it...

“He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.” Revelation 13:16,17

I wonder if this is the beginning stages of the implementation of the mark and to get us to accept the mark it has to appear as having legitimate uses and acceptance.

Just curious what you guys think...

Love Liberty, be Vigilant

"Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" (2 Corinthians 3:17)

Faith in God will prevail all things!

I'm confused.

Isn't the commodity (or in this case, the currency) that is redeemable from another currency, that which backs the currency in question? If bitcoin is redeemable in terms of whatever fiat currency is present, can't it be said that bitcoin is then backed by that fiat currency? I'm still relatively new on Austrian econ so lay it easy on me here please! :-)

I am a proud libertarian Muslim.

Here are some awesome Islamic Libertarian links:

http://minaret.org

http://muslims4liberty.com

AND TO GET OFF THE NEOCON DRIVEL ABOUT MUSLIMS: http://loonwatch.com

Thanks For your question...

what it is redeemable for has no bearing on what it is backed by, or its usefulness in its own right.

For example if I have a VW, and you have a BMW and we want to trade, we could say that that BMW was redeemable in VW's

Likewise if we choose to measure something in terms of fiat, like gold, wheat, oil, labor and bitcoin, it is not to say any of these things are backed by fiat. We just measure it in a common thing for convenient comparison.

Now when something like bitcoins threaten to be a new widespread currency, then the number of things we can redeem it in, is a useful question. The more things we can buy with bitcoin the more useful it is as money.

For example, one of bitcoins best features is it is free, to transfer money anywhere in the world. If you compare that to Western Union, that is a great advantage.

However, if theperson looking to send money does not have bitcoin and must purchase bitcoin, and the person receiving money can not buy what they want in bitcoin and have to change back to fiat, then those commission fees eat make it not free anymore.

But as bitcoin becomes more wide spread, and either the sender already has bitcoin, or the receiver can spend bitcoin directly or both, the number of places bitcoin is redeemable becomes relevant.

I hope this helps.

Keep up the great question asking.

www.SuccessCouncil.com
Protect your assets and profit from the greatest wealth transfer in history.

...

A commodity is a real good. Bitcoin software is a service.

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are URL's a commodity?

Some would say owning yahoo.com is a nice piece of digital real estate.
A commodity.

By real, I assume you meant tangible? If not please correct me.

Being tangible is not a necessary component of a commodity
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/commodity

As URL's, air-rights, and broadcast frequency rights illustrate.

Bitcoin is also a commodity, although not particularly important to his point.

www.SuccessCouncil.com
Protect your assets and profit from the greatest wealth transfer in history.

...

You lack basic understanding. Yahoo.com is a dns record stored by a registrar. Real means it relates to a "thing".

Some of the worst occurrences in our society is due to the lack of understanding of what rights truly are. Copyrights are an example of the state control over the people.

Bitcoin is a software program. I am not trying to sell you anything. Do me a favor and stop soliciting to me.

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Trading virtual currencies

I realize trading anything has its risk, including gold and silver, but who's knowledgeable on trading virtual currencies? The dos, don'ts and how-tos? What software? Is mining still a good option? Any help and links would be greatly appreciated.

There is a trading tool I saw the other day...

IT advertises, "purchases of my bitcoin trading software have enjoyed 2,000% returns the last 18 months."

But if his customers just bought bitcoin and held it, they would have enjoyed 20,000% returns the last 18 months.

I would just buy and hold(but only with money you can afford to lose, because it is entirely possible that bitcoin could be worthless one day.)

I look at it like this. Even if you think bitcoin has a 1% chance of becoming serious money, then its still worth it. Because if it becomes serious money, it will be worth $1 million per bitcoin.

If you like taking bets that pay $1,000 to 1 but occur 1 in every 1 times, then its worth throwing some money in bitcoin that you can afford to lose.

www.SuccessCouncil.com
Protect your assets and profit from the greatest wealth transfer in history.

trading tools...

Do you have a link to that tool?

I'm totally looking at it as a speculative play and realize it's risky. I won't invest what I'm not willing to loose, and any proceeds go to purchase pm's. Thanks for your reply

I can't recall it sorry.

:(

www.SuccessCouncil.com
Protect your assets and profit from the greatest wealth transfer in history.

what gives bitcoin value?

you seem to argue that it will kill fiat currency... the way i understand it, bitcoin IS fiat currency.

so my 2-part question is: What gives bitcoin value and other than the question of "who controls it?" how is it any different from all of the other fiat currencies?

At their inceptions, the #Liberty, #OccupyWallStreet and #TeaParty movements all had the same basic goal... What happened?

Its actually just 1 question.

Is it fiat? and What gives it value is actually just one question.

Value is derived from 1 of 2 sources. Voluntary trade or coercion.

Fiat means by decree. ie: coercion.

If I am president and I say, everyone must wear a pink polka dot armbands tomorrow or they will be shot, then by decree, pink polka dot armbands value just shot up.

If however the top ten celebrities all start wearing pink polka dot armbands, and all the wannabes thought, I can feel cool, just like them, then the value of pink polka dot armbands just went up voluntarily (albeit stupidly).

So is anyone forcing anyone else to buy or use bitcoin through threat of violence or coercion? Since the answer is no, then it is not fiat.

If it is not fiat, and we know the market gives it value ($750 at present), then it is the opposite of fiat. It has voluntary value.

So why are people valuing it so highly? the answer is, it performs a number of useful things and is scarce. Anything that is both useful and scarce the market will value. That is a fact. My best guesses for why they find it useful is
a) free and instant international wealth transfer
b) anonymous wealth transfer when done correctly, and
c) no third party risk to name just a few.

Keep up the great questions.

www.SuccessCouncil.com
Protect your assets and profit from the greatest wealth transfer in history.

semantics

...not by decree of a ruler but by decree of a geek... so it's just super-weak fiat.

Look, we all know this has no actual value and is only worth anything because people are desperately seeking something other than dollars... just be smart and sell while there's still a greater fool out there to buy it.

At their inceptions, the #Liberty, #OccupyWallStreet and #TeaParty movements all had the same basic goal... What happened?

semantics

Sorry - DOUBLE POST

At their inceptions, the #Liberty, #OccupyWallStreet and #TeaParty movements all had the same basic goal... What happened?

coercion on the value?

What is the government doing to coerce the *value* of FRNs? They certainly have to use coercion to back up the definition of what is an FRN and what isn't. You can't print your own FRNs. The fiat aspect of FRNs is that they don't exist except by the government's decree. Fiat is about creating them.

What you can buy with an FRN or how many FRNs you can get for something you sell is determined by the market. If you are selling ice cream and want to price a scoop at $1 or $100, the government won't care as long as they're getting their percentage in taxes. The market, however, will make it clear to you pretty quickly if you've gotten it badly wrong.

But I've seen bitcoiners, not just you, talk about fiat meaning that the government sets the *value* of FRNs, and I've never been able to figure out what they meant by that. What part of the above would you be disagreeing with?

the dont neccessarily set the value... they damand usage.

they demand you pay taxes in dollars. In order to own land, you must pay land tax. that tax is in dollars. Therefore, at some point in your year, you must exchange your labor for US$

Same as demanding you must wear pink polka dot armbands. They dont determine the price of the armbands.... they just guarantee that their value went up. Or even that they have value at all.

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Great answer

If you are ever on a Google Hangout I'd like to talk Bitcoin with you.

I have never used google hang out...

If you tell me how and where I can have a chat.

www.SuccessCouncil.com
Protect your assets and profit from the greatest wealth transfer in history.

Altering definitions is

Altering definitions is disingenuous. Logic only works if definitions are used strictly without being ambiguous. BC is not fiat according to the official definition. And fiat itself means by decree. BC has no value by decree, there is no government mandating its value. So both the official defnition and the word fiat itself (by decree) make it obvious that BC is not fiat.

What you can claim however is that BC is LIKE fiat in the aspect where it has no backing. This is correct.

...

Falsehood. Fiat has a legal definition. Go back to Latin school.

To create a currency without backing is counterfeiting.

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My view on bitcoin:

I believe it qualifies under the regression theorem but it won't succeed in the long run. If people want to redeem their bitcoins, as far as I know, you can't redeem it in commodities and it isn't equal to a certain amount of ounces of any commodity. Thus its valuation is only in terms of the most readily accessible fiat currency in a country. It isn't independent of fiat money but rather is BACKED by it. So when the dollar collapses, the NOMINAL value of bitcoin in terms of dollars will skyrocket, but it won't retain value on its own. Rather, it may happen perhaps, that people will look to either value their bitcoins in the strongest fiat currency or more hopefully, bitcoin can tie itself to a certain amount of silver or gold. Only then would it work in the long run. As a result its long term goals of being a bankless currency fails & its goal of limiting the amount of currency is irrelevant so long as they can tie the currency to a commodity. In the short run, it's a great investment, but if it remains the way it is, in the long run, it will fail.

I am a proud libertarian Muslim.

Here are some awesome Islamic Libertarian links:

http://minaret.org

http://muslims4liberty.com

AND TO GET OFF THE NEOCON DRIVEL ABOUT MUSLIMS: http://loonwatch.com

thanks for the query....

Just because something is most commonly priced and exchanged in US$ does not mean it is backed by US$.

Gold is most commonly priced and exchanged in and out of US$. But we don't suggest gold is backed by US$.

Thank you for the question.

www.SuccessCouncil.com
Protect your assets and profit from the greatest wealth transfer in history.

...

You are right. Bitcoin is backed by blind faith and nothing more.

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I've read the whole white paper! A great idea, BUT...

It's time to return to common sense economics! I'm afraid that Bitcoin = tulips!

Don't rest on the mathematical fact that Bitcoin has a fixed number to trade. Keep in mind that there are a million 'Knock-offs' just around the corner of the bit-tulip mania called bitcoin... and a million knock-offs means there are far, far more 'coins' than either tulips or FRNS!

On the other hand, people have tried to make 'knock-off's' of gold and silver for years, even out of lead, but despite the ease of access to the patent office and trademarks, no one has succeeded as yet!

So, my opinion is you had better sell your tulips while you can, especially before Tulip2 or bitcoinX...to the nth appears out of the free market blue sky! Of course the biggest selling E-coin will be the one which spends the most on advertising, or is the nicest color, or, whatever.

Logic tells me that the 'founders' of 'bitcoin1' might just have dozens of bitcoinX...nth already in mind, for the day in which they sell off at a million percent profit to buy into their newest tulip color!

Good luck E-coin/forex trading... we kind of know how that has gone and for whom!

Remember also, E-anything has only been an exchange of ideas, not commodity, for the idea disappears when the power goes off!

Your common sense is not

Your common sense is not sense at all. Most of the euros and dollars are already digital. It could be argued that the dollar and euro's digital version decides most of their exchange value, because they dominate most of the supply. There's less difference between the digital versions of the dollar and the euro than between BC and its altcoins. The only reason the computers can differentiate between euro and dollars is because they have different letters registered in the computers (EUR and USD). That's about the only difference.

To say that the altcoins inflate BC's supply, is like saying that euro's inflate the dollar's supply. If anyone knows economics at all, one knows that this is bollocks. The euro has its own exchange rate, like the dollar. While they can affect each other, one does not increase the supply of the other. This is essentially what you guys are saying when you claim that altcoins increase the supply of BC's. The logic is so ridiclously bad, that the only explanation that one can overlook such an obvious fact is because of ideology. This is why ideologies in general are a bad thing.

...

You do not have a grip on modern banking.

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I have a query:

Why are people saying that it has a market cap of approximately 7-7.5 billion dollars?

What are the criteria that creates the 'cap'?

Are the forecasters just taking todays estimated value & adding the remainder of btc that have yet to be mined?

Coinbase declares the cap to be approximately 7.5 billion which equates to roughly $2500 per coin (once 21 million btc are in circulation).

Whereas, max keiser touts that they can easily reach $100,000 per btc if 2% of the forex is captured...

What gives?

Alright...

A market cap is calculated by multiplying the total number of something in existence with the price for that item. Bitcoin that does not exist yet is not taken into consideration when making this calculation.

For instance:
$600 (per Bitcoin)
x12,000,000 (Bitcoin in existance)
-------------
=$7,200,000,000

thks..

So... there really isn't a 'fixed' market cap. Its still just a calculated guess.

right and worng.

You are right in that there is no fixed market cap. it fluctuates by the second.

You are wrong that it is a guess. The 2 numbers in the equation are always known.

the number of coins in existence is known. You can see it ticking along here in the top left hand corner.
http://bitcoinwatch.com/

The price is given by the weighted average of the magor exchanges.(same URL, right hand side table.)

Keep up the great questions. :) Everyone learns when great questions are asked.

www.SuccessCouncil.com
Protect your assets and profit from the greatest wealth transfer in history.