-15 votes

Have Daily Paul followers Become Anti-Christian?

I have encountered many people in the freedom movement who reject who are even hostile to us Christians. I notice people persecute me for writing a prayer about asking God. We will lose this battle for the republic without divine providence. Do you agree or do many of you think you can win without God's help or have disdain for us God fearing people. I do not care if a person is a christian or not. Respect the right to worship or not to worship. But there are some mocking us in the movement saying we are the liability.

the truth is we do not have a prayer to win back the republic if we reject divine providence. DO you agree.



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/agree

/agree

"You only live free if your willing to die free."

SteveMT's picture

"Divine Providence" is a Pandora's Box of evil, IMO.

You are also going down the slippery slope and need to thread lightly here, IMO. For an individual to call upon God for guidance and support is one thing. When countries believe that they are favorably looked upon by God and are following His will, that borders on fascism. "When fascism come to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."
- Sinclair Lewis

In every war both factions believe that God is on their side. Divine Providence in America sanctioned the wholesale slaughter of Native Americans called the Manifest Destiny. We believed that we had the backing of the Almighty to wipe-out the Indians from sea to shining sea. The Old Testament reeks of Divine Providence as genocide, homicide, and infanticide all were sanctioned by invoking the name of God to justify this slaughter.

Hitler also believed that he was doing God's work in ridding the whole of Jews. Here is an excerpt:

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922

I can just

imagine being in the same room with every Daily Paul member. It would be awesome. We could talk for hours. Every one has a different opinion. I thinks its great!

In the last days

The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

...many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat. Because straight is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and FEW there be that find it.

To an Armageddonist,

To an Armageddonist, everything they see affirms their belief the world is about to end.

The Kingdom of God

The Lord Jesus Christ came to establish the Kingdom of God in Spirit and in Truth. This is the message He commanded His apostles to proclaim and is the message that we as Christians are all called to announce.

In the period between His physical appearance as the Christ, the Son of the Living God, the Son of Man and the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world and His coming visible manifestation in all His resurrected saints, the sons of God, to set up and administer the visible Kingdom of Heaven on Earth, the Christian Church has worked in an imperfect fashion to accomplish her mission.

She has done so under a series of worldly kingdoms authorised by God to administer the governments of men until such time as the Age of the Nations (the Gentiles) comes to an end. It is these governments that, in various forms but with the same underlying structure and spirit, have prevailed until now. The republican form of government is one such form and in its most recent incarnation has revealed itself to be exactly the same structure and spirit as all the other governments on Earth since the mandate of Heaven was taken from the people of God in 586 B.C. and given to the empires of men.

While many billions have been called into the Kingdom only relatively few have been chosen to govern in the next Age. It is these few who will be manifested in due time in their incorruptible, immortal resurrection bodies, like unto His glorious body, to restore the whole Creation of God into union with the Father in the Son and spread the rule of God to all mankind, in every heart and mind, in His Kingdom of righteousness, joy and peace in the Holy Spirit.

As Christians we are taught to pray to our Father in Heaven, "Your Kingdom come, Your will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven". It is this Kingdom of which we as Christians are all citizens first and foremost. It is this Kingdom and its righteousness that we are commanded to seek. The kingdoms of this world are destined to become the Kingdom of our God and of His Christ and it is He who shall reign forever and ever. We are not taught to seek to establish a worldly kingdom, quite the contrary, we are commanded to obey the governing authorities and to pray for them that we might have peace to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom of God.

There is indeed a Universal Kingdom coming but not, as most imagine, a government of corruptible men. The only World Government that will ever be established is the Government of God and that is now at the door. Look up, for your redemption draws nigh.

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

And here I thought it was

And here I thought it was hostile towards us Atheists. Well, ha ha on me.

Being anti-Muslim doesn't fly very well here either, and that's proven to be dangerous, and antithetical to humanity and the health of all western countries.

I hate paint brushes...

...especially when used to paint a whole group of people with a particular color they do not want to be painted!

Your title gives away the fact that you are either ignorant or foolish (almost the same), but either way, definitely unjust.

There are many Daily Paul followers who think they are Christians, claim to be Christians or really are Christians. And those three categories cover a lot of people so why in the world would you even post such a topic?

It is certainly counterproductive to what the Daily Paul is all about.

You are either ignorant of that fact or you know it and are being very foolish in stirring up unnecessary division. Either way you are unjust, both to the Christians, and to those who you claim to want to win or convert.

You would make a very good politician in today's de facto corporate government, because they always use class warfare to divide. You would also make a good troll.

Somehow I actually think you might be sincere and new to the patriot movement and just don't get the principle of liberty of conscience. It only makes sense to me that all good Christians believe in liberty of conscience because God does. He is the Author of Liberty and has given each of us free will. He even gives His adversary (Satan) plenty of rope to tempt us as a test of our intelligence and faith in His Word.

When he comes up with a really good deception, we are the ones responsible for not seeing through it because God has given all of us access to the knowledge we need to make right decisions. But most people do what they want to do and Satn has been pretty successful at creating desires or emphasizing natural desires to such a degree that we choose our will over God's most of the time. But that's on us.

So, why would you make all Christians look bad by asking such a stupid, divisive question?

You just painted me with a color I despise. Shame on you. Get rid of your brush and wake up to liberty.

Liberty is not the same as freedom. Freedom is the domain of the free. Freedom is the ability to do what you WANT to do. Liberty is the ability to use your freedom to do what you OUGHT to do. The Bible says, "Where the Spirit of the LORD is, there is liberty." (2 Corinthians 3:17) That's why liberty is the ability to do what you OUGHT to do because the Spirit of God will lead people to do what they ought to do - what is right. Our human nature is the source of all our wants, which is usually selfish and sometimes quite destructive to others and eventually ourselves.

So wake up to liberty and quit painting other people with your selfish brush.

If you can't change someone who is wrong, you can at least love them before they destroy themselves. That's why Jesus was a friend of sinners - He loved them. Most Christians do not represent Him well, they are just the opposite. The only people Jesus was rough with were the phoney-baloney Pharisees - the religious crowd!

Read Matthew 23 and see. That's why I am being straight forward with you. You arte either ignorant or foolish and for sure unjust.

An apology would be a good idea.

Freedom is the ability to do what you want to do.
Liberty is the ability to do what you ought to do.
"Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." 2 Corinthians 3:17

Great post.

Well said.

ALL religions are derived from hallucinogenics

Just a fact that is hard for most to accept.

If I disappear from a discussion please forgive me. My 24-7 business requires me to split mid-sentence to serve them. I am not ducking out, I will be back later to catch up.

why do I find this humorous?

Friend, that one went over like a Led Zeppelin!

SteveMT's picture

That is a bit too strong of a characterization.

They behave as though they are taking something hallucinogenic. It's more implied or indirect that something is going on that is not normal. Only the drug alcohol is mentioned or alluded to in the Bible, but nowhere is it stated that scriptures were written while under the influence of anything. However, they are certainly seeing things that others are not.

If anyone questions Christianity, they are labelled anti-christian. The same tactic is being used by our government these days. We are all terrorists if we question the government.

This issue of magical thinking and fantastic visions is a big one in the Bible. Some examples of this are:
a talking serpent,
a great sea creature swallowing someone then spitting them out,
a tower built up to heaven,
languages being magically created,
a boat holding every known animal,
a talking burning bush in the Old Testament,
a talking mule in the New Testament,
angels appearing throughout,
gods copulating with humans being called immaculate conceptions,
someone walking on water,
catching a boat load of fish on command, and
apocalyptic visions seen by one man on an island.

These things are accepted as givens and unquestioned as having had occurred exactly as written. They are accepted as facts, and anyone who questions them is labelled anti-christian and from the devil.

Worship of the state has

Worship of the state has replaced worship of God. But it is no better, and just as, when worship of God gave unlimited power of religious leaders to persecute, torture and murder any heretics, so worship of the state allows the same evil human tendency of self righteous destruction of one's enemies. It is the worship that destroys everything. Without reason, and with God, or the State on your side, anything goes.

Malo Periculosam Libertatem Quam Quietum Servitium
On y soit qui mal y pense

Well for better or worse....

I never considered the DP as being anti-Christian. That said, the fact that your Op garnered a net -17 votes and counting does have me worried that it very well might be, whether it is intended to be or not.

I don't see any reason why this thread would merit a net -17. That's pretty extreme.

-18 with my addition

...and certainly not because I am anti-Christian - I'm not.

I downvoted because I am pro-Liberty, and I feel this thread was anti-Liberty, written to encourage division.

2ndamenduser ^^above a few posts, hit the nail pretty much right on the head IMO.

I don't know, but I've become

I don't know, but I've become anti-stupid thread.

One Individual Libertarian vis-a-vis the Church (a treatise)

Bless them. Whether I "channeled" that or not is pretty much semantics. The thoughts in everyone' mind are congruent with whatever thoughts in Diety's mind out of an infinity of thoughts, are not just congruent, they are identical, e.g:

Rich Grise's thoughts are a subset of Diety's thoughts
Faithkills' thoughts are a subset of Diety's thoughts
BillRow's thoughts are a subset of Diety's thoughts
nofedirs' thoughts are a subset of Diety's thoughts
GoodSamaritan's thoughts are a subset of Diety's thoughts
Unknownuser's thoughts are a subset of Diety's thoughts
mingeem's thoughts are a subset of Diety's thoughts
Spirit of '76's thoughts are a subset of Diety's thoughts

The thing is, there's room for everybody's thoughts and opinions and whatever in this infinite Mindspace. Even non-believers, even the rabid ones, have a place in Mindspace. and everybody shares whatever part of Diety's mindspace that he or she chooses.

There's the crux.

There are Christians, and Buddhists, and Hindus, and what we used to call Moslems, and followers of the Tao, and so on. There are even believers in the Flying Spaghetti Monster and Cthulhu. As a skydiver, I beileve in That Great Roulette Wheel in the Sky.

And the Universe is big enough for all of them.

Now, what's this "Libertarian" schtuff everybody's all atwitter about. Hey! Which came first, "atwitter" or a Twitter? ;-)

Well, there are Libertarians over here, and there are Libertarians over there, there are Libertarians who are lumberjacks, and there are Libertarians who are programmers, and there are Libertarians who flip burgers, and there are Redneck libertarians and there are artsy-fartsy Libertarians, and there are plumbers who are Libertarians, essentially we want to welcome everybody to the party of Almost Absolute Liberty for all, that is, do absolutely anything in the whole wide universe that you feel like doing, as long as you don't hurt anybody or forcibly interfere with their Almost Absolute Liberty. That's one piece of the Mindspace that every libertarians shares with other and their own part of Diety's mindspace that they're sharing at the time. So you've got millions and millions of mindspaces of all shapes and sizes that have a sort of appendage that extends to include the Libertarian mindspace. So, in that area of Almost Absolute Liberty that all Libertarians share you could say that we're all of one mind, at least about that one thing. And you're free to romp and play in whatever corner of Infinite Mindspacy you lay claim to. If you and the person next to you decide to put a cooperative garden in the back yard that crosses the property line, such that space is shared between you and your neighbor, then everything would be peachy. But if you and your neighbor didn't have that agreement, and you started roto-tilling his backyard, he'd probably try to stop you. ;-D

Churches seem to have a aura of exclusivity about them, they'll say they welcome everybody, but what they mean is they'll welcome anybody who pledges their fealty to the church and follow their leader, just like with political parties.

And the gods of most of these chunks of Deity claim to be all of Deity. And their way of enforcing their exclusivity is by telling you that nonbelievers will go to Hell. Maybe for some of them, Liberty is Hell, because they can't live without a leader. OK, that's what they choose to do, it's no skin off my teeth.

You can't escape Free Will, only hide it under the tarp of obedience to whichever authority you've chosen to install as your boss.

The most wondrous part, and at once the most difficult part, is to get everyone to join the mindspace of Almost Absolute Liberty without any leader(s). Each person is the owner of her life and is 100% responsible for her own well-being. Now, if there's someone who doesn't know how to take care of themselves, them by the generosity of the Human Spirit someone or some group will help out just out of the goodness of their heart. But when someone can't take care of himself because external events block that person, then we've got a problem. And those problems seem to be just as exponential as graphs of every other thing that people make graph of. All while wages pretty much flat-line, but that's a different topic.

In the interim, however, the more Libertarians there are the better we'll be able to defeat those external forces that keep us from having our Heart's Desire, the most fundamental of which is Liberty, one person at a time. The way to do that is to take back control of our own lives in whatever way we can and push back their aggression - or just plain ignore any rules you don't like - until we get them put back in their right place, within the inviolable rules spelled out in the Constitution.

There are rules that I don't like all that much, but I go along because the alternative is worse, like speed laws. I don't like keeping my speed down to 60 on a highway that's been engineered to go 80 or 90 on, but I'd rather 60 than a speeding ticket. And the Constitution spells out exactly what the things are that they have been granted the authority to do. And they're not prohibited from making speed limits.

But, the only Libertarians who don't like certain people of a certain religion are those Libertarians who don't like certain people of a certain religion. I don't particularly care, as long as they don't get annoying about it. :-D

Freedom is my Worship Word!

Correction.

You said,
"And the Constitution spells out exactly what the things are that they have been granted the authority to do. And they're not prohibited from making speed limits."

The first statement is correct, but the second is incorrect by virtue of the 9th and 10th amendments. Government does not have the power to do what ever they want that is not mentioned in the Constitution. They only have the power to do what IS enumerated in the Constitution for them to do.

Also, they are not granted authority, only Authors have that. They are granted certain delegated POWERS which are carefully enumerated - 1,2,3, etc. :)

Freedom is the ability to do what you want to do.
Liberty is the ability to do what you ought to do.
"Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." 2 Corinthians 3:17

Don't disgree, but....

...it's really hard to get past the sense in the Murray Rothbard quote that Good Samaritan posted below. I hope he'll post it again. Rothbard was clear that the LP and libertarian philosophy will never succeed in any kind of mainstream way as long as the mainstream views libertarianism as an atheist movement.

It doesn't mean libertarians need to be believers in anything but libertarianism. It does mean that the rabid atheism associated with the libertarian movement, rightly or wrongly, DIRECTLY CONTRIBUTES to the negative view of libertarianism by most people.

And THAT does not help our cause.

I think it's pretty obvious that atheists can be just as "religious" in their beliefs and just as proselytizing and preachy as the Christians they complain about.

If you're a libertarian, I imagine you ought to believe in minding your OWN business and letting others believe whatever the hell they want, right?

So Good Samaritan doesn't get busted for double posting...

....on a thread, here I'll repost it...

[T]he libertarian movement, and the Libertarian Party, will get nowhere in America – or throughout the world – so long as it is perceived, as it generally is, as a movement dedicated to atheism...Nock, Morley, Chodorov, Flynn et al. were not atheists, but for various accidental reasons of history, the libertarian movement after the 1950′s consisted almost exclusively of atheists...There is nothing inherently wrong with this, except that many libertarians have habitually and wrongly acted as if religious people in general and Christians in particular are pariahs and equivalent to statists. - Murray Rothbard

See http://www.lewrockwell.com/2011/03/laurence-m-vance/is-liber...

I'm not anti-Christian. I'm pro-Christian.

I'm just not a Christian.

The reason people 'persecute you' isn't because you're a Christian.

It's because you say stupid divisive crap like "We will lose this battle for the republic without divine providence." Which I will note plenty of Christians do not say, and do not catch crap.

If you want to post a prayer, fine. If you want to convince me to worship your God I have no problem with that. If you want to complain about the Feds stopping a local government from having a plaque with the Ten Commandments on their courthouse, I'm with you. If you want to rail against Churches being forced to fund contraception, I'm behind you.

But don't tell me I'm less of a libertarian because I don't worship your god, or the only path to liberty is through worshiping your god.

It's not. In fact my principle is liberty. My principle is zero threat to you, ever. I would never suggest you be prevented from worshiping as you wish.

Your principle is Jesus. To you God comes before liberty, and if you changed your interpretation of what you think God says you would be against liberty as quickly. Lot's of Christians are progressive collectivists for that reason. In fact most Christians world wide favor socialism over freedom.

I'm pleased to have you as a brother in liberty. I'm fine if you want to save my soul. But keep these things separate. Don't tell me I'm not a real patriot because you haven't convinced me. Christianity isn't that great a friend to liberty, world wide.

When you say "God comes before liberty", think about those words

It's not so much that he's higher priority, that would be a misrepresentation.

But your words are very accurate. Yes, He existed PRIOR TO liberty, He is the creator of all men, He is the author of liberty, He gave man free will, He inspired those who wrote during the enlightenment resulting in the inspiration for our founding fathers.

So, yes, in that respect, God comes before liberty.

Right. And I don't mean to

Right. And I don't mean to impugn your commitment to liberty, or any Christian's here.

But the pedigree is academically troublesome to those of us whose cleave first to the moral principle of non-aggression and natural rights. As I previously pointed out, most of the worlds Christians do not interpret God's word to say that liberty is important. Or rather they interpret 'liberation' to mean socialism.

So when I say I am 'pro-Christian' I should be more clear and say 'I'm pro-Christians of the U.S. strain'.

Outside the US with a socialist pope Christians are likely going to become more detrimental to liberty on the whole.

My god is better than your god!

My perception of this day is better than your perception of holiday?
My evolution of awareness is better than your evolution and awareness.
My vibration is better than your vibration.

All childish games in the eyes of a loving dimity.

It's all energy, vibrations and waveforms. God is energy, all knowing, all powerful and ever-present. To understand god and truth just take a milli-second snapshot of all the vibrations and waveforms. That is truth and god. To expect or call it anything else in untruth and ungodly.

"A vote for the lesser of two evils is a vote to keep things the same", Buckminster Fuller..
A choice for liberty is always a choice for liberty.

Mushrooms?

Anyone read/review John Allegro's studies of the Dead Sea Scrolls?

Any thoughts, comments, insight?

All Rights Reserved, c 1791
RP 2012 and beyond....

GoodSamaritan's picture

If Wikipedia is correct, Allegro was a joke

It was during his stay in Theology that he wrote his controversial book, The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross....

The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross argued that Jesus in the Gospels was in fact a code for a type of hallucinogen, the Amanita muscaria, and that Christianity was the product of an ancient "sex-and-mushroom" cult. Critical reaction was swift and harsh: fourteen British scholars (including Allegro's mentor at Oxford, Godfrey Driver) denounced it and the publisher even apologized for publishing it. Sidnie White Crawford wrote of the publication of Sacred Mushroom, "Rightly or wrongly, Allegro would never be taken seriously as a scholar again."

"Jesus was...a code for a type of hallucinogen" - LOL ... it's more likely he was taking an hallucinogen and writing about it in code.

Ron Paul - Honorary Founding Father

could be due to bias, it was controversial

but it's not all fabrication or speculation-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sacred_Mushroom_and_the_Cro...

Check out http://ronpaulforums.com for activism and news.

No, no.

Who's to say what's a (an?) hallucination and what's Divine Inspiration?

The Bible was written by old men who were hearing voices, after all.

Who ya gonna believe, them or your gut? ;-)

Or both? Or all three? %-}

Freedom is my Worship Word!

Lol! That there is funny!

Lol! That there is funny!

I know I am

going off topic but what is your thoughts on the PISCES Symbol? Christian or Pagan?