-15 votes

Have Daily Paul followers Become Anti-Christian?

I have encountered many people in the freedom movement who reject who are even hostile to us Christians. I notice people persecute me for writing a prayer about asking God. We will lose this battle for the republic without divine providence. Do you agree or do many of you think you can win without God's help or have disdain for us God fearing people. I do not care if a person is a christian or not. Respect the right to worship or not to worship. But there are some mocking us in the movement saying we are the liability.

the truth is we do not have a prayer to win back the republic if we reject divine providence. DO you agree.

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My Island


http://youtu.be/zs8QKXtCN9w

"I, __________, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_enlistment

There is no duration defined in the Oath

Wrong

"Would God tell you something to tell me, or would He tell me directly without intermediaries?"

Paine clearly and stupidly picks and chooses his arguments like yours, and his above, where he is mad that God speaks through intermediaries despite the fact that God speaks directly to several people in the Bible,and as Jesus in person as Gods Son( views on the trinity aside ) is also speaking directly to people. I can't help it if Paine and others have reading comprehension problems and are blatantly dishonest, that is simply a character feature and flaw of themselves.

SteveMT's picture

Wooo. Personal attacks on the deceased? Stick to the facts.

God speaking through intermediaries is the biggest Biblical argument to chose. The term for this is called hearsay. Is hearsay going to condemn someone or bring them to salvation...second hand information? Start thinking. I know that it is scary to consider that God does not write books, but you can do it. After two years of turmoil, I finally did. The only other argument is would God speak in written words? Words lose and change their meanings with time and are wide open to copying errors, mistranslations, and most importantly corruption by evil doers. God knows that, and He would have never done that. Why don't you also know that?

Asclepius's picture

I agree, here is a Paine quote:

Ironically, Atheism is an outgrowth of the worse aspects of Christianity.

Excerpted from The Age of Reason, written by Thomas Paine in 1794

"I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life."

“As to the Christian system of faith, it appears to me a species of Atheism – a sort of religious denial of God. It professes to believe in a man rather than in God. It is a compound made up chiefly of Manism with but little Deism, and is as near to Atheism as twilight is to darkness. It introduces between man and his Maker an opaque body, which it calls a Redeemer, as the moon introduces her opaque self between the earth and the sun, and it produces by this means a religious, or an irreligious, eclipse of light. It has put the whole orbit of reason into shade.

“The effect of this obscurity has been that of turning everything upside down, and representing it in reverse, and among the revolutions it has thus magically produced it has made a revolution in theology.

“That which is now called natural philosophy, embracing the whole circle of science, of which astronomy occupies the chief place, is the study of the works of God, and of the power and wisdom of God in His works, and is the true theology.

“As to the theology that is now studied in its place, it is the study of human opinions and of human fancies concerning God. It is not the study of God Himself in the works that He has made, but in the works or writings that man has made; and it is not among the least of the mischiefs that the Christian system has done to the world, that it has abandoned the original and beautiful system of theology, like a beautiful innocent, to distress and reproach, to make room for the hag of superstition.”

Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery; none but ourselves can free our minds. - Bob Marley

:D

"Some books against Deism fell into my hands; they were said to be the substance of sermons preached at Boyle's lectures. It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist." -Benjamin Franklin

Your comment promotes my affinity with Franklin.

Your chosen quotes from Paine I find to be very well written.

You've just converted me closer to Deism.

EDIT: Oops! I misaligned the comments. I first thought yours was a reply to freestater. I see now that you were agreeing with SteveMT. Hey, keep on chooglin'! ;)

GoodSamaritan's picture

Poor Paine

"[The Christian faith] professes to believe in a man rather than in God."

If by "man" he was referring to Christ Jesus, then Paine was terribly confused about Christianity. Jesus repeatedly claimed to be one and the same as God Almighty and was eventually murdered for doing so.

Christians don't worship a man -- they worship God. The same God who promised a Redeemer as early as Genesis 3. Christians know that Redeemer as Jesus -- God Himself, incarnate.

Ron Paul - Honorary Founding Father

perhaps you could cut him some slack

"Paine was terribly confused about Christianity"

You remain unexposed to the "Christianity" to which Paine was exposed in his 18th century milieu.

GoodSamaritan's picture

No slack for a gifted author and philosopher

For the common man, perhaps. Christians behaving badly do sometimes hinder the advancement of Christ's kingdom. But Paine was an intellectual who had access to the same Bible many Christians still use today. He should have known that anyone around him claiming to be Christian was responsible to be Christ-like. He could have read the story of Christ for himself and known what Jesus expected of His followers.

No, he rejected Christianity because he rejected God's revealed Word and chose to invent his own version of God. He made an idol of his own wisdom.

Ron Paul - Honorary Founding Father

SteveMT's picture

Does this sound like someone who is worshiping himself?

The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion. - Thomas Paine

I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. ‘Tis the business of little minds to shrink; but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death.
-Thomas Paine

To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. - Thomas Paine

GoodSamaritan's picture

If his ultimate measure of God

was his own intellect, yes.

Ron Paul - Honorary Founding Father

SteveMT's picture

His intellect was given to him by....Almighty God.

Does The Almighty want sheeple, simpletons who blindly follow others without questioning? You say yes, and I say no. Everyones "ultimate measure of God" IS their own intellect. How can one comprehend of the concept of a supreme being except by ones own intellect? You are saying a person with a 150 IQ should have the same simple beliefs about God as a person with a 50 IQ. That is nonsense.

GoodSamaritan's picture

Putting words in my mouth

creates a straw-man for argument. I said no such thing. In fact, I said the opposite - that everyone should question their beliefs.

God's revelation through His Word is the measure of God. He defines Himself. If you don't like His descriptions of His own character, go make up your own just as Paine did. I'll still measure anyone's description of God against what God has said about Himself.

Ron Paul - Honorary Founding Father

SteveMT's picture

Paine first "questioned" his beliefs like we all should do.

We just had a good interaction about questioning ones own beliefs. You even provided Bible verses to back that up. Paine not only did exactly that, he questioned all religions who put words in the mouth of the Almighty. He ultimately called it all hearsay. He was thinking out loud with words to be accepted if they made sense or rejected if they did not. If anyone had made a better argument or had put forward ideas that were better than his, he would have listened, agreed, and adopted these new beliefs as his own.

Paine's did not "invent his own version of God" as you put it. He removed what he showed to be not from God, and he embraced what remained.
That is an Almighty this is consistent, merciful, timeless, unchanging, and logical all of the time, not just some of the time.

GoodSamaritan's picture

Questioning is essential, but the standard is God's Word

"Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord..." Isaiah 1:18

Paine "reasoned" himself into rejecting not just Christianity and the way it was practiced around him, but the entire revealed Word of God, Old Testament and New, the Bible:

The study of theology, as it stands in the Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authority; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing; and it admits of no conclusion.

Yet, he also wrote:

I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life.

There is no other conclusion but that the "God" he believed in was something other than the God of the Bible if the basis for his belief was his own imagination about what is or is not revealed truth.

Jesus Christ claimed to be the promised Messiah, and he claimed to be God. Either he was or he wasn't. The only way to know this is to examine the entire Bible carefully. As I said before, all of Christianity rises or falls on the resurrection of Jesus. If Jesus was a liar, and the Apostles were liars, then the Bible is rejected as false because it contains unequivocal claims to be the Word of God (II Timothy 3:16, II Peter 1:16-21).

Paine or anyone else is welcome and encouraged to question everything they believe. However, if one rejects the Biblical revelation of God as truth then there is no other standard by which to measure one's conclusions except the imaginations of men. By rejecting the Bible as God's Word, while maintaining belief in a God, Paine invented his own version of God.

As it says in Romans 1:18-22:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools,..."

Ron Paul - Honorary Founding Father

SteveMT's picture

In other words, the Bible should be accepted as a given.

That contradicts what you provided passages for to question what we believe!

There are no givens in this world. We had better question everything, especially the supposed givens of our religious beliefs. The Bible was written by men who were "believed" to be inspired by God. Some of them were war-mongers, some were whore-mongers, and some were mass murderers who justified genocide by telling their people that God wanted such wholesale murder done and without mercy. There would be no other way to justify the killing of babies, children, and pregnant women except to say that God commands that this be done. I guess the people who refused to do this killing are still burning in hell for refusing to carryout these orders. The Bible makes no mention of that.

Start questioning what you believe my friend, if you believe all of what is written in the Bible to be true. I believe that the Almighty is good and that He had nothing to do with such evil things.

GoodSamaritan's picture

That's your interpretation

And I disagree with your presupposition that there are no givens in this world. But believe what you want about the Bible. I merely concluded that Paine was confused about Christianity since he apparently didn't realize that Christians worship Jesus as God. I also concluded that Paine defined God based upon his own reasoning after having rejected the revelation of God. He put himself in the place of God by creating his own definition of God. If the Bible is not God's revelation to Man, then any definition of God will do - including Paine's - and will be equally meaningless.

I have questioned, and continue to question, my understanding of the Bible. I do not question its inspiration in the original autographs. In my estimation, the historical, legal, and archeological evidence of the Bible's accuracy and authenticity as God's Word is overwhelming. That's even before I get to His personal working in my own life.

You apparently have little to no understanding of the Old Covenant and its relationship to the New Covenant, and the relationship of both to the unfolding of God's salvation plan. Horrible people and shocking acts are all over the Old Testament. I know why, do you?

Thankfully, Christians don't live under that Covenant because it was dissolved nearly 2,000 years ago. The Apostle Paul tells followers of Jesus Christ in 1 Corinthians 10:1-11 exactly why those events happened. Your interpretation doesn't square with his.

Ron Paul - Honorary Founding Father

SteveMT's picture

Do you know history, GoodSamaritan?

Did the New Covenant wash away the Old Covenant? Were the commands given by God that entire populations be put to the sword in the Old Testament stopped after the resurrection of Christ? Really? Do you know about the 400 years of Crusades where multiple Popes, speaking from their Divine communication with God, told Christians to kill the Muslims in the name God if they could not be proselytized? This was just like in the Old Testament! Is that the New Covenant? It sounds like the same as the old one to me. The Old Covenant is covered in blood as is the new one.

GoodSamaritan's picture

Yes, I do

And as I've already indicated, the Old Covenant ended nearly 2,000 years ago with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, just as Jesus predicted it would end. Don't blame God for what power-hungry people did after that in His name. Or, show me in the New Testament where Jesus or any of the Apostles taught that God's kingdom should be spread by violence.

Ron Paul - Honorary Founding Father

Thanks Steve,

your comment more than adequately covers anything I might have said in reply to GoodSamaritan. Well put!

SteveMT's picture

Thank you again, John.

As you can see, I have a vested interest in this discussion; that was an understatement. We had better know what we believe, and we had better be able to defend what we believe not only to ourselves, and to our peers, but to the Almighty himself. I don't buy using the blind faith excuse of saying "I believe it because it's in the Bible." By that defending, we will come to a better understanding of what we believe and make the necessary changes to what we believe when presented with something that is better. There are no givens, especially when it comes to religion. The members here are pretty smart, which is why I engage them the way that I do. It is a test for them as well as for me. When I die, I want to know that I tested what I believed as best I could.

The spirit that Paine made

The spirit that Paine made smile, must certainly be smiling by you.

um no Mr. Paine

"“That which is now called natural philosophy, embracing the whole circle of science, of which astronomy occupies the chief place, is the study of the works of God, and of the power and wisdom of God in His works, and is the true theology."

True theology has never been the secondary effects of Gods Creation but of his actual interactions in actual space time with humans and what he meant for them. You could learn very little of being a human and what your purpose is from the secondary effects.

Without a mirror, how are we

Without a mirror, how are we to learn that reflection, the mirror, and that which we see in it are not worthy of our dedication. Through study of mirrors, reflection and secondary effects we ultimately discern what is primary and dedicate ourselves to the source of the image.

My Responce

"No one saves us but ourselves. No one can and no one may. We ourselves must walk the path." - Buddha

Life is a sexually transmitted disease with a 100% fatality rate.
Don't Give me Liberty, I'll get up and get it myself!

emancipate yourself from mental slavery...

...none but ourselves can free our minds

I enjoyed the quote in your comment, reminded me of Marley.

Those who find your Buddha quote or Marley's notion of redemption to be unchristian are not Christian but slaves to men.

In the end we each pull our own plow or not.

No one can make us plow, no one may do our task.

Parmenides of Elea argued that 'reality is what cannot not be' around the same time a Buddha lived in India.

This was cutting edge thought during the time of Jesus. I wonder what they talked about when he stayed behind at the temple.

Free includes debt-free!

In my view its truth and rationality vs myth and superstitution

I was a believer for 40 years. Just like I was a believer in 9/11 and other government lies until my access to massive historical information became available.

I constantly remind myself that I too once was a believer so I need to have some consideration for others who still believe, but there is no question its frustrating to listen to people who make outragous claims with zero evidence.

I'm like many atheists who have gone through the pain of letting go of god to come out the other side and experience the true freedom from religous dogma. After being free from religion for a while, the things believers say and continue to beleive start to be comical...and sad.

Words can't express how culible I feel when I look back on the things I used to believe.

I accepted that a snake spoke in the garden of eden.

I accepted that a virgin was supernaturally impregnated, gave birth, and remained a virgin.

I accepted that a man was buried for 3 days, and then came back to life.

I accepted that a man hundreds of years old re-started the human species through incest.

These are just some of the most recognizable storys from the bible which all belivers must accept as true.

I'm all about truth. No one can claim to base their lives on truth and reality and still accept so many obviously false claims.

When you research the orgins of government and the role that religion has played throughout history for controlling large groups of individuals...the hiarchical structure and the consent to authority which all religions promote, becomes less a story about an amazing supernatual being and more a directed message with specific purposes...very much like propaganda.

Also, I NEVER EVER call religous people stupid or retarded. When I'm engaged with someone THEY routinely say something like "so you just think I'm a complete idiot right"?

The fact is, there is no more proof to the claim that god exsists than anyone can disprove a claim that I have an invisible duck on my head...if thats what I claim.

So for the record, I do not hate, get angry, or dislike people that still claim to believe in a god or gods. I just sometimes feel like interjecting my point of view and try to help anyone who is struggling to break the chains of irrational thinking to cast those chains aside once and for all.

No one needs to worship an invisible anything. I worship my wife, my daugther, and many other things that are real. :-)

See? That's what happens when you take religious

concepts literally, instead of spiritually. It doesn't negate Christianity (or any other faith). You have to go on to deeper levels to even begin to comprehend the awesomeness of God.

What is at the heart of faith can't be put into words accurately. Words are inadequate but, they do give a hint of what is meant. Think about that. Maybe get yourself acquainted with metaphysics. The books of Emmett Fox would be a good place to start. Just sayin'.

“It is the food which you furnish to your mind that determines the whole character of your life.”
―Emmet Fox

God is not a slave to the dogmas men make.

In my life I have found god to be absolutely free. Free to be or not to be, at least for me.

Faith takes the place when reality is hidden.

I suspect some are angry at God for leaving them free to be hoodwinked by men.

But the stories warned that the knowledge of good and evil brought sure death.

The serpent promised that judging good and evil would make men like gods. It wasn't the serpent but the story-teller talking. Men want the secret of godliness. Accepting temptation, I suspect they started complaining about everything.

Noona, I can not imagine celebrating love lost. It would have been far sadder to never have been loved in return.

May joys bless your year of remembrance.

Free includes debt-free!

Thank you, Paul_S.

I assume you were referring to emalvini's beautiful hummingbird post. One surprising thing I learned recently is that true love never dies. It always finds a way to come through, if it's the real thing. For that I am grateful and celebrate the joy it brings me, even through tears of sadness for the loss of the material presence.

Thank you for your blessing! I really do appreciate that.

“It is the food which you furnish to your mind that determines the whole character of your life.”
―Emmet Fox