4 votes

I'm frustrated with the anti Bitcoin crowd and their vitriol against it.

Bitcion is not a New World Order tool. However the US Dollar is. Bitcoin is not a threat to Gold, nor does it replace the value in saving in Gold. Rather, it gives us the ability to buy and sell goods in services free of the control of central planners, governments, and banking monopolies.

What self respecting Libertarian, Anarchist, or Freedom supporter would be against a network of individuals coming together to build a tool that enables free exchange?

The Bitcion network has intrinsic value as it eliminates banking fees and simplifies the transfer of funds from one person to another. Bitcoins are just a unit of account within that network.

If you don't like Bitcoin, continue earning money in US Dollars and spending US dollars. See how that works out for you in the long run.

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wolfe's picture

Really?

FIAT, practice. An order of a judge, or of an officer, whose authority, to be signified by his signature, is necessary to authenticate the particular acts.
-Law Dictionary, John Bouvier, Revised Sixth Edition, 1856

FIAT, A short order or warrant of a judge or magistrate directing some act to be done; an authority issuing from some competent source for the doing of a legal act.
- Black's Law Dictionary, 1st Ed.

FIAT, n.
1. an authoritative decree, sanction, or order: a royal fiat.
2. an arbitrary decree or pronouncement, esp. by a person or group of persons having absolute authority to enforce it: to rule by fiat.
- Webster's College Dictionary 2010

Law and force are mentioned repeatedly. Bitcoin proponents, users, and creators have no authority over you to force you to use it.

I am no fan of bitcoin, but failure to understand a simple word, especially after you took the time to look it up does not help to make your case.

The Philosophy Of Liberty -
http://www.thephilosophyofliberty.com/

...

Legal is not lawful.

Do you just read what you want to believe?

Is the issuing authority a person or groups of persons? Does this person or group of persons have the absolute authority over Bitcoin software?

Then it's fiat. period.

All rights reserved and no rights waived.

wolfe's picture

I have absolute authority over my toilet...

Does that make my bowels movements fiat? The creators of bitcoin have no authority over ME or YOU to FORCE (enforce) it's use. That is what is meant by those definitions.

You misunderstand the simple use of language. You can pretend there is a difference between "legal" and "lawful" all you want. That doesn't make it true, nor does it mean anything.

But, the second I hear made up crap like that, I know I am talking to a "freeman" and stop trying to communicate with them. So have a good day.

The Philosophy Of Liberty -
http://www.thephilosophyofliberty.com/

Just snorted milk out my nose...

...trying to stop laughing! Oh, it hurts...

No-one but Paul!

...

The American people are broken just like the language and the government.

All rights reserved and no rights waived.

wolfe's picture

lol...

My job is done for the day then... :)

The Philosophy Of Liberty -
http://www.thephilosophyofliberty.com/

...

Fiat is a simple latin word meaning "let it be". The meaning is so wide that it can apply to many different situations. Go ahead and label me if you rather be willfully ignorant of what you don't want to know but the definition of LAW and LEGAL are not the same in any dictionary. I have never claimed any labels or titles. I am just a living man.

The king is not going to chop your head off if you decide not to use dollars.

You will respect your fellow man when you respect yourself.

All rights reserved and no rights waived.

wolfe's picture

Enjoy making stuff up?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/legal?s=t

legal
adjective
1. permitted by law; lawful: Such acts are not legal.
2. of or pertaining to law; connected with the law or its administration: the legal profession.
3. appointed, established, or authorized by law; deriving authority from law.
4. recognized by law rather than by equity.
5. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of the profession of law or of lawyers: a legal mind.

Such a sad state of education in this world. You post the definition for Fiat and then try to pretend that it says something different. Just flat out strange, to be honest.

And yes, the "king" will "cut off our head". The USD is enforced through taxation. The ultimate penalty of failure is potential death (fines and jail or more common, but the IRS or those acting on their behalf have been known to kill numerous times). It is further enforced via the petro treaties/violence overseas.

The Philosophy Of Liberty -
http://www.thephilosophyofliberty.com/

...

You are not required to work for dollars and if you don't make dollars than you do not owe tax dollars. It's a system of consent. Some would argue conscripted slavery.

Language has been used to control the people for centuries.

Correct, legal relates to law. To claim them to be one in the same is a mistake. Congruent does not mean equal. It's not education that is the problem, it is indoctrination.

Speed limits are a good example. The numbers may change because they are legal but the law cannot change. It may be legal to travel at 35mph today and 45mph tomorrow. Legalisms are subject to change with the will of man. Law cannot change and is the same at all moments. Regardless the posted speed limit, it is still unlawful to run over a man in the street, even if you are going the speed limit legally.

All rights reserved and no rights waived.

wolfe's picture

wow.

"You are not required to work for dollars and if you don't make dollars than you do not owe tax dollars. It's a system of consent. Some would argue conscripted slavery."

It is slavery, on that we agree. The rest is horseshit. Ask the IRS. All transactions, for labor, services, and goods is taxable. Working/paying under the table is actually one of the MOST serious offenses in their books if you get caught.

As for the rest on referencing the law, you are making up distinctions that exist NO WHERE in ANY dictionary.

The Philosophy Of Liberty -
http://www.thephilosophyofliberty.com/

...

I talk with the IRS all the time. No income means no taxes. Haven't had an issue with that one. How you solve that problem is up to you.

The authority isn't over you, it is over the instrument. The Federal Reserve has the authority to issue Dollars and stop counterfeiters as does the authority of Bitcoin software to issue arbitrary strings of numbers and validate them.

Bitcoin software makes no claims of backing or redemption.

If law and legal were the same word then using them interchangeably would be accepted. There is no way to change the reality.

They don't call it legal money, they call it lawful money. The don't call it lawful tender, they call it legal tender. They call it a legal limit, not a lawful limit. They call it legal age, not lawful age.

We are slaves by consent.

All rights reserved and no rights waived.

wolfe's picture

That term has been thrown around a lot about bitcoin.

While bitcoin is not market sustainable, nor is it backed with any intrinsic value, nor is it a stable currency, etc etc... But it is not fiat.

Fiat means by government mandate. It does not mean any of the above. Even gold can be fiat if it is dictated by the government.

Just because bitcoin is worthless, and printed on demand without value, does not make it fiat.

The Philosophy Of Liberty -
http://www.thephilosophyofliberty.com/

Call it What you Want --- BITCOIN HAS A PROBLEM.

The precise definition of FIAT is NOT the issue here.

The issue is that our Fiat Dollar is unstable BECAUSE it has no intrinsic value - and as such - it is OPEN TO MANIPULATION. So it doesn't matter if BitCoin has MANDATED VALUE from the Government or AGREED UPON VALUE from the users -- it's still unstable.

How can the TRUE VALUE of BitCoins ever be verified ?

Even if the whole government shut down - GOLD can still help you.
If there is a power outage with BitCoins - YOU'RE FCKED.

wolfe's picture

Did you somehow misunderstand my position?

I am not in favor of, nor a fan of bitcoin, for many reasons (I thought that was pretty clear). But showing ignorance by incorrectly calling it fiat is misdirection, and incorrect.

The Philosophy Of Liberty -
http://www.thephilosophyofliberty.com/

: )

>

Bitcoiners should be more frustrated with the 35% drop today

Bitcoin is now down to under $700 from $1150

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Bitcoin fad

There was nothing to justify the $1000 or so increase in the last 30 days or so, in the price of a bitcoin. That's a joke!

Amen!

"What self respecting Libertarian, Anarchist, or Freedom supporter would be against a network of individuals coming together to build a tool that enables free exchange?"
-I'm gonna quote you in some book someday.

Another word for "intrinsic value" is the word UTILITY. Y'all already know the UTILITY Gold and Silver. Bitcoin's UTILITY is found in being the most Private, most Secure, Cheapest, and Fastest system of payment. Its "intrinsic value" is found in the system/protocol itself. (not to mention all of the other qualities found in Bitcoin)

Here is an Awesome talk given at the Libertarian Crypto-Currency Conference two months ago:

http://www.dailypaul.com/307114/knowledgeable-libertarians-o...

http://www.cryptocurrencycon.com/

"We’ve moved beyond the Mises textbook. We’re running in the open market." - Erik Voorhees

Utility?

It may have utility someday, but it doesn't have much today. There are very few places you can even spend it. And if you do return an item purchased with bitcoin, it's a whole different transaction.

P.S. Bitcoin Slammed As Baidu Suspends Payments Due To "Fluctuations"
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-12-06/bitcoin-slammed-bai...

And just what justifies the $1000 or so increase in the price of a bitcoin in the last 30 days or so?

More users = more valuable

More users = more valuable and more stable.

If Libertarian, Anarchist, or Freedom advocates got together

and said we are going to compete with the Fed by making up our own currency with a difference we are going to limit its supply, I would think I would want to help them understand you can't just make up money based on a computer mining game that wastes electricity and then go out and try and convince people it has value.

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Water not holding...

Does extracting gold not waste resources?

Does a p2p network that eliminates an expensive middle man have no value?

Should we all stick with cd's because we can touch mp3's

Just make up? The bitcoin protocol was build on centuries of monetary and economic theory, mathematics and the most advanced cryptography. Maybe we should all disregard this new technology because someone made it up. Sounds logical...

It's no coincidence the 2 groups against bitcoin are ones with PM positions or the group that benefits from the fiat to keep being printed.

Ron Paul brought me here.

To me this is the most interesting thing about BitCoin and ...

...perhaps the greatest potential....

"Does a p2p network that eliminates an expensive middle man have no value? "

Could that very thing enable, in concept, eliminate the need for a "neutral" third party who is supposed to be there to justly enforce contracts, i.e. the government?

Or the need for a 3rd party (government) "official" recording entity, such as the county recorder?

protoshares and mastercoin

and to a lesser extent namecoin are doing just that.

bitcoin could do all those things like stock market type transaction, notary timestamps etc but for the time being btc has it's hands full and implementing all that can cause potential security issues so for now i think bitcoin will stick to doing what it's doing.

however in the meantime other cryptos like protoshares are attempting to do just what you described with not only stock/bond trading but with decentralized truly anonymous encrypted email that can't shut down your account or give the gov all your email info etc. this same tech can be applied to everything you can imagine totally replacing the stock market and banking system etc etc etc.

Official Daily Paul BTC address: 16oZXSGAcDrSbZeBnSu84w5UWwbLtZsBms
My ฿itcoin: 17khsA7MvBJAGAPkhrFJdQZPYKgxAeXkBY
http://www.dailypaul.com/303151/bitcoin-has-gone-on-an-insan...

Yes, gold and silver mining and oil drilling do

cause environmental damage and expend resources.
Silver and Oil right now are indispensible resources so their mining justifies the cost and damage to the environment

There is no way you can justify bitcoin "mining"-people don't need bitcoins to heat their homes or drive their cars to make their electonics.

Bitcoin really is a game

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wolfe's picture

An interesting note.

If instead of representing wasted energy/time. A currency were developed to represent yet unused CPU cycles or hard drive space, and was expanded as the network was expanded, then that might hold value. For instance, BOINC (Seti@home http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/). If you were allowed a processing allotment based on your total held "coins", then this would potentially give value to both small and large companies looking to offset internal server work.

The problem with bitcoin is that they say, "hey look at all the electricity we wasted, isn't that worth something?" and the resounding answer is no, to absolutely no one. The potential "value" has already been lost in use.

Further, people think that limiting the currency production is somehow valuable, but that isn't exactly the case. The limitations of gold in the marketplace is what makes it easy to corner gold, and conversely, impossible to corner silver. Bitcoin, if the original cap is kept (which is unlikely), it could easily be cornered.

These are just side notes, as the core issues with bitcoin remain unresolvable and so these points are moot.

All currencies evolve in a market as a function of being the most common in demand (not the most valuable). Given the modern age, turning server shares/network storage into a currency would actually make some sense. And allow people to make money by running server farms to serve a need (not waste electricity and bandwidth).

The Philosophy Of Liberty -
http://www.thephilosophyofliberty.com/

protoshares does this

Daniel Larimer of Project Keyhotee, Bitshares, & Protoshares

Protoshares & Selfish Mining - Let's Talk Bitcoin Episode 57

Official Daily Paul BTC address: 16oZXSGAcDrSbZeBnSu84w5UWwbLtZsBms
My ฿itcoin: 17khsA7MvBJAGAPkhrFJdQZPYKgxAeXkBY
http://www.dailypaul.com/303151/bitcoin-has-gone-on-an-insan...

Not disputing, just curious.

Could you not analogize the "wasting electricity" point to made to "cutting down trees"?

In other words, to make physical currency bills you have to cut down trees, pulp the paper, etc etc, print, ship and distribute. That's just to put cash in a person's hand. Are those economic value add or non-value add activities any different than the "wasting electricity" example you provided?

I ask this not to assert a point, but out of genuine interest to hear what you and others think.

wolfe's picture

Byproduct != value

The "value" backing the USD is twofold:
1) Domestic - Violence through taxation. You are required to transition to dollars to avoid penalization, jail, and even death.
2) Foreign - The petro dollar (forced conversion for oil purchase) is backed by treaties. Also violence is it's value.

The destruction of the trees to obtain the USD (most USD is digital already anyway) is a byproduct, not the claimed value. If it were, then blank paper could be used interchangeably with the USD.

In the case of bitcoin, whenever "value" is mentioned, the proponents say that the byproduct (the expenditure of electricity and time, is it's value), which is like saying that when I eat a burger, what's left in the toilet has value because it had value when I ate it. To quote Tommy Boy, "If you want me to crap in a box, and stamp guarantee on it, I can do it, I have the time."

There are many other problems with bitcoin, lack of value is only one. Trading "coins" that represented CPU cycles or disk storage (for instance BOINC, or google selling shares in their ever growing storage network) would have future value to the purchaser, and would provide "value" of a sort.

But just because something was wasted/used, does not give it value.

The Philosophy Of Liberty -
http://www.thephilosophyofliberty.com/

In some respects Bitcoin is a bit of an embarassment

after years of complaining about the lack of sound money, libertarians rally around an invented currency with out any backing whose basis is artificial "scarce" bitcoins that can be mined by wasting electricity.
The bitcoins WILL be found its not like real mining where your project may not yield the "inferred deposits". As long as you waste enough electricity the bitcoins will emerge and if the evangelizers can convince enough people that they are worth something you will get a return on your investment.

If someone from outer space watched bitcoin mining they would think the human race had gone mad

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