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FBI testified; says Kelly Thomas had right to defend himself against police *UPDATE 2*

Expert witness from FBI: Two Fullerton cops (Jay Cicinelli on left; Manny Ramos on right) acted unprofessionally in killing of homeless man
During yesterday's testimony in the Kelly Thomas murder trial, a retired FBI supervising special agent and tactical police training expert told jurors that the 37-year-old homeless man had a right to use force to defend himself against two Fullerton police officers who'd essentially converted themselves into heavily armed thugs with badges.
John Wilson, who spent 60 hours studying the gruesome, July 2011, police attack on an unarmed Thomas, said that officer Manuel Ramos began the minor encounter unnecessarily by immediately taking out his baton, swinging it in both hands and poking it at the victim, who hadn't been physically threatening.

But, according to Wilson, the most unprofessional moment prior to the killing occurred when Ramos mocked the schizophrenia-addled Thomas as stupid, dramatically put on gloves as he towered over him and said, "Now, you see my fists? They're getting ready to fuck you up."

District Attorney Tony Rackauckas played related portions of a surveillance tape of the brutality and, over Ramos defense lawyer John Barnett's incessant objections, asked Wilson if he considered the cop conduct appropriate under the circumstances.

"Clearly, no," replied the 26-year FBI veteran, who at one point served on the U.S. Attorney General's protection detail in Washington, D.C. "I have problems with everything that happened after Ramos put the gloves on."

Read more:


I heard on KFI Los Angeles from a reporter who was in the court room at this time that the defense attorney ask the FBI agent that if he thought it would be ok if Kelly Thomas had grabbed one of the officers guns and shot them in self defense. The FBI agent responded "yes, that would be his right because he was being attacked." I have found the audio for it, I just hope the link works. Skip to 4:00 for the beginning:


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Dr. Matthew Budoff, program director for cardiology at Harbor-UCLA Medical Center, said CAT scans and X-rays of Thomas’ heart show no evidence of heart failure.

“He could’ve had some early stages of damage to his heart, but his heart was not weakened,” Budoff testified.

Thomas “would not have died of heart failure because his heart was still normal at this point,” he said.

An Orange County coroner determined that Thomas died of brain damage from lack of oxygen caused by chest compression and injuries to the face during his struggle with police.


Jurors in the trial of two former Fullerton police officers accused of beating a mentally ill homeless man to death will probably be told to disregard the opinions of witnesses who said the two acted within department policy.

The admonition is expected to be part of jury instructions that are still being negotiated by attorneys in the trial over the beating death of Kelly Thomas.

“You are ordered to disregard those opinions,” a draft of the admonition says. “It is up to you to determine whether the defendants used excessive or unreasonable force based on all the evidence that has been presented in this trial but you may not consider evidence that has been stricken.”


The piss poor prosecution

of this case looks intentional.


[4 Videos of Daily Coverage Below]

Clear The Court - Day 8 - The People v. Ramos and Cicinelli (Beating and Murder of Kelly Thomas)


Clear The Court - Day 9 - The People v. Ramos and Cicinelli (Beating and Murder of Kelly Thomas)


Clear The Court - Day 10 - The People v. Ramos and Cicinelli (Beating and Murder of Kelly Thomas)


Clear The Court - Day 11 - The People v. Ramos and Cicinelli (Beating and Murder of Kelly Thomas)


Keep it coming



I'm glad to see it because I try to keep some up with what's going on in these cases and I watch 0 msn. If I weren't interested I'd just skip over the post ;)

Daughter of 1776 American Revolutionists


Welcome. And same here.

News.google.com is pretty helpful. search key-words.


Personnel files of officers in Kelly Thomas case must be turned over

The judge in the Kelly Thomas trial ruled Friday that portions of the personnel records of the two former Fullerton officers charged in the death of the homeless man be turned over to prosecutors and defense lawyers.

However, the judge gave Fullerton’s city attorney a week to challenge the decision before the Fourth District Court of Appeals, said Susan Schroeder, the Orange County district attorney's office chief of staff.

If O.C. Superior Court Judge William Froeberg’s ruling stands, prosecutors will have to determine what evidence they’ll seek to introduce in court, Schroeder said.



Won't be any news for a couple of weeks.



For contributing to the updates, as I rarely have time these days.



DA rests in Kelly Thomas beating case trial; observers surprised

Rhetorical question of the day: Why aren't the rest of the cops that participated being charged?


Can't remember that last time I hoped so much for a man to be convicted of murder. I'm not too confident right now. Not even for manslaughter charges. Keep your fingers crossed.

People in Fullerton hate these cops

If they are set free, it will be open season on the Fullerton Cops.

good video, thanks for posting this

I find it interesting that the head DA for OC is trying it...essentially a politician, rusty in the courtroom, and according to this guy, it shows!

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-- Albert Einstein


Bump in disgust :(

It is disgusting

I couldn't get through the video of the beating, it made me sick

Justice when he's sentenced for what it is

Ramos deserves a lengthy prison sentence and in-prison justice to follow. His complicit partner should be sentenced as an accessory to felony assault at minimum. I realize that most cops are great people, but when these thugs aren't sentenced for crimes as this, it make them ALL look guilty by association.

"The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing."
-Albert Einstein

Die Pigs Die

Those statist scumbags should have been eliminated before they became a threat.

"I'm Ron Paul." - Ron Paul



All rights reserved and no rights waived.



Thanks for the bump


"The FBI agent responded

"The FBI agent responded "yes, that would be his right because he was being attacked."

Yes under such circumstances, EVERYONE would have that right, and yet EVERYONE will be thinking about what the government will do(in the current form it is in), if they do, some WONT defend themselves because of that, purely for this uncertainty, and sometimes in these uncertainties, someone may lose their life

They take our freedoms away, not in a physical way, but in our minds, we are nations of mental bondage, which is why they can get away with it so easilly, to many people only understand the physical aspect of the chains

More background


I found the link for more detailed info. Link is above.

What I remember about the incident

Originally, the Fullerton Police Department defended officer's Jay Cicinelli and Manuel Ramos brutality by falsely accusing Kelly Thomas breaking the officer's bones. Additionally, after Kelly Thomas died, the FPD tried to deflect the cause of death from a brutal beating at the hand of the FPD to malfesance of the medical staff at UCI Medical Center and later to a medical condition. Thirdly, after Kelly Thomas lay dying in the street, no FPD tried to help or gave direction to responding paramedics to provide any life saving aid. All officer's involved quickly scurried off as fast as possible and left Kelly Thomas to die. Fourthy, they rewrote their Police reports after seeing the survellience video.

they actually knew the victim too

there is a video where one of them is heard saying after the attack "that was kelly thomas wasn't it?" So they knew this kid and knew he was as harmless as a fly.

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-- Albert Einstein

The Prosecutor's Office

Likely ensured one juror symp@thetic to the defense slipped through the jury selection process. Nullific@tion works both w@ys. I've little confidence justice will be served on these thugs. Perh@ps I'm overly cynic@l.

What impact the testimony and

What impact the testimony and defense moves are having on jurors is unknown. Orange County juries historically have given police officers carte blanche to use deadly force even against unarmed citizens and to lie in official reports that coverup police corruption.

Yup. Same thing here in AZ. No such thing as a fair trial.

There is nothing strange about having a bar of soap in your right pocket, it's just what's happening.

It's gonna be different this time

there is enough public support behind this that the DA, who defended many cops in police brutality cases before, is prosecuting this one himself. That means he thinks there's a bonafide political grandstanding opportunity, along with a trial to win! Of course, he may also think it's the right thing to do...I don't know his heart but I do think the public sentiment is very against these particular OC scum/thugs/cop defendants!

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-- Albert Einstein

There's such a thing as the

'Use of Force Continum' that defines the escallation of 'Reasonable Force' as outlined under legal definition.
Look it up and use it appropriately to determine the possibility of excessive force.
These guys knew it, it's a part of basic training, and they chose to disregard it.

"Hell is empty, and all the devils are here" (Shakespeare)
RP 2012~ Intellectual Revolution.

Just a reminder