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Either God approves or God is powerless to do anything about it

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God gives us freedom...

God gives us freedom to choose good or evil. If we choose to use our ability to grow, produce, keep good laws that bring prosperity, He allows it. He also allows us to choose evil and create political laws that bring death and destruction to the physical/temporary body. He judges us according to the good and evil we do in the day of Judgement. We have Laws like "love your enemies" and "love your neighbor as yourself" that we will be judged by. We will be accountable for those we have harmed in this life unless we repent. Repentance is possible through Christ's atonement. He paid the penalty for our sins if we contract with Him through baptism that we will follow his ways and choose good rather then evil. Can't escape the Laws of the God/Nature. It's not a Law if there is no penalty or Judgement for disobeying.

One would know by reading the

One would know by reading the instruction manual for life he provided.

Socialism violates the 10 commandments.
Stealing from one person and giving to another?

"You only live free if your willing to die free."

Would that be the same

Would that be the same instruction manual that teaches and mandates:
You must kill adulterers Lev 20:10, homosexuals Lev 20:13, anyone who works on the Sabbath Ex 31:15, anyone who strikes or curses a parent Ex 21:15,17, or anyone who refuses to seek the Lord God of Israel. 2Chron 20:13? Is that the instruction manual you're talking about?

answer: the short version LOLZ

The way you paraphrase the bible shows your lack of understanding of it. I will applaud your adding book/chapter/verse and phrasing as a question though. One who does not study a holy text should be asking questions instead of making assertions.
So 2 gold stars for you :)

"Kill anyone who refuses to seek the Lord God of Israel. 2Chron 20:13?"
O.o? It says this not that.
(Perhaps you meant the Koran about infidels?)
2 Chronicles 20:13
New King James Version (NKJV)
13 Now all Judah, with their little ones, their wives, and their children, stood before the Lord.

The others are all off as well but the misunderstanding is not that of the wrong text but the lack of understanding of the correct text.
These paraphrases are all old testament. It is true they remain sins but how they should be dealt with is entirely different and the audience the text is directed to is different as well. The old testament was directed to the Jews, a people whose ancestor Abraham made a contract in person with God. The old testament functioned not just as a book of directions on how to behave but a codex of the appropriate punishment for the Jewish nation. God is particularly harsh on his own chosen people as they are supposed to be setting an example for the rest of us idiots. The particularly harsh judgements he has rained down upon them throughout history are due to them NOT setting the example they are supposed to. Not keeping their end of the contract (well more so for not trying).
The new testaments audience was God turning to every one else (and all repentant Jews) because the Jews forsook and slayed their king, his son when he came bearing a new covenant. The new testament was not written to be a nations laws. The new testament was written based on the new covenant Jesus made when he offered up his life to pay for ALL sins. Jesus would tell you that yes laying with another man is a sin but stoning your brother is not the appropriate approach. Rebuking him in love is.
I encourage you to study the bible over just reading snippets here and there. You will never understand it that way. No more than you would understand the technical manual encompassing the space shuttle if you simply cracked open a book to a random paragraph and read.
Man is a considerably more complicated machine than any thing he constructs himself.
Good luck, and God bless you :)

"You only live free if your willing to die free."

I stand corrected.

"Kill anyone who refuses to seek the Lord God of Israel" is 2Chron 15-13, not 20:13. The rest are right on according to the King James version.
Though the old testament my not apply today it's still a reflection of the nature of your god. Your god is racist, sexist and condones rape, murder and slavery. This is where you tell me that we as small sinful beings can not see the big picture as god can. Maybe the ends justify the means in the eyes of your god but not in mine.
Thank you for your wish of luck and gods blessing even though the Bible teaches "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed. For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds." 2John 1:10-11

Those are Mosaic.

Those are Mosaic laws. Christians prefer ten commandments and God's judgement.
Obviously you have not studied the bible very much.
Christ taught to teach right from wrong as outlined in the old testament, but to leave judgement up to God. That's what being a Christian means. Anyone who defines a Christian in another way is perverse.

The ten commandments you "prefer"

ARE Mosaic Law. So if Mosaic Law no longer applies, neither do the ten commandments. Does god require you to follow only laws you prefer?
The old testament is a poor outline of right and wrong. God in the old testament is a sexist, racist god who condones slavery, rape and murder. Not what I would call a real role model.

Or you misspoke ?

Gods character has been on trail now for over four thousand years that I'm aware of ( according to scripture ).
Let me ask you, would you love, could you be forced to truly love a tyrant ? Well, that's what your asking God to be, by forcing things to be His way rather than let men choose, and sometimes miss the point entirely.

Gods character, is LOVE, and love does not impose its will, evil does.

Try blaming the correct party, if you must assign blame: that party would be Lucifer and believe it or not, he will get what he has sown. It's just not happening quick enough for you right?
How much does God need to suffer with you for you to accept His love? After all He already was flayed alive, abused, persecuted and suffocated on a tree just for YOU. Interesting that all other gods require you to sacrifice for them; Jesus who is God sacrificed Himself for us, and that's STILL NOT GOOD ENEOUGH for 90% of all who ever lived or live.

God Bless
Stēkō Parrēsia Iesōus

Drew, by the very grace of GOD through the blood of Christ Jesus.
"there shall come after us men whom shall garner great wealth using our system, and having done so shall seek to slam the door of prosperity behind them." George Washington

Look up secondary causation.

If your assertion is that God either approves or is powerless, my response is that you are aping an obsolete dilemma from one of the lesser minds of Ancient Greece (Epicurus).

The problem with evil according to the narrative of Genesis can be taken a number of ways, one of which was common amongst the Gnostic/Marcionite heresy (and probably inspired by this old Epicurus quote) is that the OT God is a psychopath who hates everything he creates with no accounting for moral culpability for the actions of the representatives of creation (ergo us), which is actually pretty close to what Islam teaches.

The other way to take it is by reading Genesis rather than relying on stupid internet memes rehashing tired axiomatic statements by ancient pedophiles, thus we can speak to the free will choice of man and woman, who pass the consequences onto the whole world as their masters, and made what was truly a poor choice. Eden was a place of infinite sustenance, peace and tranquility, and all that is asked of its occupants is to follow one simple positive command regarding the fruit of one tree, but they just couldn't help themselves and brought a curse down on the whole world.

Apply this lesson to politics, and understand the pervasive nature of sin, and you'll see why people not only commit acts of evil, but also why they celebrate it when its happening, and why it deserves to be punished and ultimately is.

Sorry if that came off as harsh, but after a while you get tired of hearing the same asinine arguments over and over again passed off as novelty of thought.

“My attitude toward progress has passed from antagonism to boredom. I have long ceased to argue with people who prefer Thursday to Wednesday because it is Thursday.” - G.K. Chesterton


Isn't that where the talking garden snake comes from?

The Garden snake in Genesis 3 isn’t the only animal that speaks in Scripture...numbers chapter 22 is where God causes Balaam’s donkey to actually speak and rebuke him.


What's your point?
God could make your behind speak too, if he so desired.
He's God. What part of God do you not get?

"You only live free if your willing to die free."

oh come on, this all boils

oh come on, this all boils down to whether free will exists, and last time i checked, nobody can prove that it does. so as far as i'm concerned, WE are "powerless" to influence the world in that we cannot make a free choice--our brains react to stimuli and act accordingly, we don't control our thoughts.

**eye roll**

In that case you can't blame me for the down vote.
The devi....er ah stimuli made me do it :D

"You only live free if your willing to die free."

Ron Paul is proof free will exists...

...he's been in the middle of all kinds of stimuli to be like the rest of Congress, but he chose by his own free will to vote by principle, instead of by stimuli!

Freedom is the ability to do what you want to do.
Liberty is the ability to do what you ought to do.
"Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." 2 Corinthians 3:17

^this :)

^this :)

"You only live free if your willing to die free."


You leave out the prime opponent in Christian doctrine, or Satan.

God does exist and so does the one that would rule the Earth for his own corrupted purposes and also contest for our souls.

Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
www.yaliberty.org - Young Americans for Liberty
www.ivaw.org/operation-recovery - Stop Deploying Traumatized Troops


Why didn't He just make us robotic?



"You only live free if your willing to die free."

You left out a third

You left out a third possibility, that God does not exist, but I suppose that was implied.

However, if God does exist, then you would need to elaborate on each alternative and make your language more precise to be accurate.

For example, in the 'powerless' alternative, you would have to say powerless within the framework of a prior choice: God created a world where natural suffering was possible for some purpose, and subordinated that possibility to the prior purpose he chose in allowing such a world. So the first priority was chosen as a good and the consequences were permitted for the greater good. Its not really possible to know what reasons could be involved in such a choice, or to judge the being that created your own conception of good and evil.

To call god powerless in the normal sense of unable to stop something if he chose to, would be a confusion of language. God as traditionally defined has to have such a power, so he could only be powerless in the face of a former choice that overrode the possible choice of ending all individual cases of subjective human pain or injustice.

Finally, if God exists, then it is silly to try to pass a moral judgment against him. You might decide you wish you didn't exist, but if you choose to continue to exist, you're basically approving of his work and design. You prefer existence over non existence despite all suffering and evil. And if you are merely too afraid to end your existence because you believe in an afterlife, then that very belief in an afterlife would render earthly pain and suffering a pointless objection to God, since temporal and earthly suffering would be a drop of nothing in comparison to spiritual immortality where all accounts are balanced.

The graphic is actually not saying God is powerless or God approves, it is a graphic presentation of the argument that God can't exist as traditionally defined because of the existence of evil. On a purely intellectual level, however, that argument can't be sustained, since it is entirely possible for a God to exist who permits suffering and evil for some purpose of greater consequence that couldn't occur without the pain and evil. Since that's a possibility, the argument fails as an argument against God's existence.

That doesn't mean there aren't good arguments against God existing, but this one isn't a knockout argument. At best it merely calls into question the probability of God. But such judgements of probability are senseless if the possibility of God is still open. If God might exist, then there would be many possible justifications for the existence of pain and suffering in the world.

That's as agnostic answer, so don't start with the name calling. If you can't follow the objective arguments and logic, and are committed to your own view, that's fine, but it doesn't mean the opposing argument is a covert fundamentalist one. Deal with the arguments or gracefully bow out.

God through his son has already atoned for this and all sin.

The word is the living evidence to this truth. He has already defeated evil and made a way for our salvation by his grace. All has been made right.

Your disbelief does not change these truths.

I pray that you stop blaming God for the problems that you see and realize that he has given the talent, tools, and skills to first recognize injustice and the means to remedy it. Time to get to work.

Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
www.yaliberty.org - Young Americans for Liberty
www.ivaw.org/operation-recovery - Stop Deploying Traumatized Troops

People often forget (or never learned)

Man was given free will for a reason.

While God can change the outcome of something, to do so is to violate free will, therefore it is up to us to not allow such tragedies to occur.

It really all comes down to governments corruption, a great example is the poorer parts of Africa. Many "starving populations" are only starving because the people do not have property rights and do not own land, they work for a government who takes all the spoils and leaves them barely alive.


God lets us make our own choices good or bad. If God made our choices for us there would be no free will and therefore no glory to Him when we choose righteousness and to praise Him.

Isaiah 2:4
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

These are things we do or don't do

Don't belittle man's responsibility by involving a higher power.

You are correct

There are things we do or don't do. It's called free will.

"I'm Ron Paul." - Ron Paul

Sweep around your own front door..

You can't hope to critique God any more than my pet turtle can critique my fighting strategy in Call Of Duty 4.

If we were to rebuild Solomon's temple in this day and age, it would cost close to 180 billion dollars.

I'm pretty sure there were starving people somewhere in Solomon's day.

Reminds me of an old joke...

Man#1: I'm tempted to ask God why He doesn't do anything about the misery and suffering in the world.
Man#2: So why don't you ask him?
Man #1: I'm afraid He just might turn around and ask me the very same question!

I'll leave you to your thoughts.

What foolish tripe .....213

What foolish tripe .....213 you can rise above this nonsense


Liberty = Responsibility

God's Plan

Is to save man by making him good through his grace. It's an individual process, and so can never apply to society at large. Most organized religion takes on too much of the role of God, pulling Him down from Heaven, and thus losing much of His grace.

Still, the Mormon temple was built mostly by hand by devoted pioneers - the modern church's excesses regardless - but still.

Poor logic

There are MANY other possibilities.

Any attempt to put God's reasoning in a box must first be done with the proper context that you are a finite being trying to subject what would be an infinitely wiser and superior being who has existed for eons upon eons to your reasoning based solely on 21st century American culture, human thought and understanding.

So based on this, you assume it is God's role to police all human behavior and ensure perfect equality and happy lives for all mankind. You assume because He CAN do something that He should or if not, he makes no sense to you.

That would be great.. why should we have to do anything at all. We can just sit on our tales and play on the internet all day until we die. God will take care of everything.

You are advocating the moral equivalent of welfare where no one has to be responsible and big old God takes care of everything.

First, I did not create the poster/picture

I found it at a site I go to regularly and as an atheist... I found it thought provoking. There is a source link to the site under the pic. I want more people to research the TRUTH behind the orgins of religion and break the chains of religious indoctrination. People need to lose the fear of the unknown. Its a wonderful world. False stories from thousands of years ago need to go into the dust bin of history.

The most important reason to question believing in God or indeed believing anything is the simple fact that truth should matter. So long as truth matters to you, then you should care whether what you believe is true or not. If you care whether what you believe is true or not, then you should be willing to question what you believe and subject it to critical scrutiny. Testing what you believe against logic and evidence is the only way ensure that what you believe is more likely true than not. If you won't question what you believe, then you can't care much about truth.

Religious Claims Have Been Proven Wrong So Often

The number of religious claims that have been proven wrong, and absurd, is so large that it probably isn't even possible to create a full list. Even religious theists will agree that if we were to create a list of all religious beliefs ever held by humans, most would be wrong. Given this incredibly poor record, how reliable can we treat the relatively small number of claims that are still being disputed? Of course, this isn't proof that they are definitely wrong, but it does suggest that religions do not produce reliable, accurate information and knowledge. That should give us good reasons for skepticism.

Not Everyone's God Can Exist

Large numbers of people have believed in a god or gods over the millennia, but they've all believed in different gods. It's not possible for them to all exist which means that most of these beliefs (if not all) have been wrong. Maybe you happen to be one of the few who happen to be right and happen to believe in the only god or gods on that long list which actually exist, but the chances of that aren't very high. This should be a good reason to ask hard questions about theism and religion.

Talking snakes, donkeys, virgins giving birth, buried man returning to life, all knowing all powerful playmate in the sky? Good grief...THINK what you are being forced to accept as reality?

But, I love all my DPers in liberty...I just like to speak out on religious dogma periodically. I did put it in the religious heading so it could have been ignored.

You are right.

You are right. Many religious claims have been proven false, because there are many false religions.
You should definitely not believe them.
The bible has yet to be proven wrong.
So I believe it.
There is one God.
He waits for you to chose him.
He loves you more than you can imagine, even with the wonderful mind he gave you.

"You only live free if your willing to die free."