9 votes

Libertarians and their abortion problem

How selfish are we to draw a line as to when life begins or when it is appropriate to abort a life? Most abortions are done because of burden. It is a burden when the mom or dad are not ready for various reasons. It is a burden when it is not planned. It is a burden when other methods of birth control fail. And yes, it is even a burden when it is a forced insemination.

You call yourselves freedom fighters. You come here to spout all your knowledge about Liberty. Tell me something...is it not Liberty for all? Why is a life in the womb...the most defenseless of all...not entitled to Liberty?

A wise man once said "how can we protect liberty if we can't protect life?"

If libertarians won't defend all life than I want no part of it.

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Exactly.

Thank you for this reply. This is the whole point of the argument - when should one human being have the right to decide to take the life of another? What could give them that right? Unfortunately, our culture has been leaning away from any authority for such a long time now that only physical evidences of material wealth are absolute. Trying to explain this wholly sound logic - that being Omniscient and Omnipresent only God would have the necessary insight to exercise that type of judgement - requires an individual acceptance of an Absolute authority above human insight that will never appear on television or make them seem cool.

SteveMT's picture

So, when in doubt, kill first, think about it later?

David was penalized because he didn't kill thoroughly enough? What does that say about this god? This makes Chairman Mao look like a warm and fuzzy guy. Kill the entire family, no mercy, not even sparring the babies or the unborn. If this is your Almighty God, you are quite welcome to him. He is not my God. My God does not kill without mercy. In fact, He doesn't kill at all. My God is good.

jaseed's picture

It Is spelled: too

..in too kind

“The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time: the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them.”

– Thomas Jefferson

SteveMT's picture

Will this be done by E.O. or by amending the Constitution?

Just asking. In addition, you are obviously not a libertarian. If you were, your title would read: Libertarians and "our" abortion problem
The great majority of libertarians here do not have a problem with abortion. You obviously do.

Do you believe that drugs should be legalized?
Do you believe that any person can marry any other person?
Do you believe in a small government?
Do you believe that all wars should be declared?
Do you believe that the govt. has no business being in education, energy, medicine, commerce, mail, transportation, agriculture, and science?

Just what do you believe?

Steve, I think your questions

Steve, I think your questions are fair as you don't know anything about me except that my husband served in the military and I have lost 3 children.

I do believe drugs should be legalized but I don't use drugs. I feel that our prisons are too full for these victimless crimes.
In my faith I don't believe in gay marriage but I feel we have bigger fish to fry so it is a non issue.
Of course I believe in small government.
I beleive all wars should be declaimed and only in the matter of national defense. I would like to see our military bases closed and troops brought home to protect our borders. All guns pointed out.
I agree 100% in the last statement.

I also agree that all human life should be protected. Why is this wrong in your eyes?

SteveMT's picture

Appreciated reading that.

We are on the same playing field. Thanks for your answers.

I appreciate you challenging

I appreciate you challenging me. It's always good to take an in depth look at what we believe. I appreciate a friendly debate especially if there is an opportunity to learn. I also enjoy connecting with thoughtful people.

Take care.

You're not a libertarian if

You're not a libertarian if you believe there's a "right to life." That's the position of a socialist who will then need a large gov and its monopoly of force to enforce his own personal morality.

NO HUMAN BEING HAS A RIGHT TO LIVE OFF ANOTHER! What is so hard to comprehend about this? You have the right to remove something from your body, the fact that it results in the death of a fetus is secondary. Whether its moral or not, is a different question, but gov has no business in matters of morality.

Imagine one day you woke up to find yourself attached to another human being. This other human beings loved ones needed to attach him to you in order to keep him alive. He didn't choose it either, they forced him just as they forced you. Now imagine that in order for this person not to die you had to stay attached to this person for 9 months. If you chose to remove yourself from this person and they died, the anti-abortion pseudo-libertarian zealots would have to call that murder to remain logically consistent. Obviously their position fails right there logically. This is where they fall back on "faith" which can say anything they want it to say because, by definition faith defies logic and reason.

So, you can either sell-out and just admit you are a big-gov force loving wannabe pseudo-libertarian, or you can actually try and come up with a logically consistent philosophy, but you can't have both.

The only ones with a problem are the anti-abortion libertarian pretenders and that's why they now have started 3 threads on this issue.

Notice we never talked about morality. I think it's immoral to have children and be a drug addict. It definitely damages kids. That doesn't mean I want a giant gov who will enforce that because as a logical rational human being I know what's far worse.

The religious zealots will vote this post down, but that's because they have no logical retort. They are just lying to themselves, but sadly there are so many subsets like this among libertarians who sell-out the core values for one pet belief and that's why we can't unite on a cohesive front.

If you believe in god, let him judge and sort out the morality. Isn't that what he asks you to do? Or keep working with evil for your one pet issue and violate everything else you believe in.

"In reality, the Constitution itself is incapable of achieving what we would like in limiting government power, no matter how well written."

~ Ron Paul, End the Fed

First, I am not a

First, I am not a Libertarian. I am a Ron Paul Republican. Second, the right to life is not a socialist view. That is by far one of the most over the top statements I've read so far.

What is the difference

What is the difference between a "Ron Paul Replubican" and a libertarian?

Some Libertarians make a religion of their philosophy

and political perspectives, as a position they defend against being told anything by anyone of a higher authority than themselves. Appeals to conscience fall on deaf ears because they believe that any remnants of conscience that might bother them are only the results of social and family constraints imposed on them from childhood.

Others see liberty as a jewel given us by our Creator, worth honoring and defending along with life and the pursuit of happiness. Being a libertarian, to me, means standing fast in my gifted liberty, while seeking to appeal to others that they might best enjoy and fulfill it's intended purpose this way. Life and happiness pursue the same course.

While neo-cons and authoritarian-progressives may, at times, make similar sounding faith claims, their failure to apply a good conscience towards personal and political action makes it clear that among them both, faith in God is seen as a comfortable convenience, not something of authority greater than their own opinions.

Unknownuser, we're not alone here, just because some loud voices might talk down at us from their lofty opinions dressed in Libertarian terminologies. Ron Paul, for as much as I've read him, and heard from him, holds a similar faith in appealing to conscience as we do.

"For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind." - 2 Timothy 1:7

Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them. - Frederick Douglass

Thank you for your post.

Thank you for your post.

Right to Life to the best of your means

You have a right to life alright, but only by your own means, and without the threat of others abridging that right. Your right to life does not give you the right to steal the wealth of others.

"Your liberty to swing your fist ends just where my nose begins."

It really is a shame that the "right to life" has become a leftist phrase with Obamacare.

Ron Paul 2016

Is that post

Aimed at me, or the o/p, or simply in general, just to clarify so I don't say something you will regret.

"Hell is empty, and all the devils are here" (Shakespeare)
RP 2012~ Intellectual Revolution.

It's aimed at the person I'm

It's aimed at the type of person I'm describing. If that's you, then it's aimed at you. If not, then it's not. Simple as that.

"In reality, the Constitution itself is incapable of achieving what we would like in limiting government power, no matter how well written."

~ Ron Paul, End the Fed

Apathy isn't the solution

Planned Parenthood is the largest abortion provider in the United States. Their founder, Margaret Sanger, once said, "the most merciful thing that a large family does to one of its infant members is to kill it." (A73)

Regretably, some here, not many I trust, believe that human rights are location dependent; those within the US are endowed, those within a womb are not.

http://www.abort73.com/images/abortion/abortion-11-01.jpg
11 weeks. image: Abort73.com

Go there: http://www.abort73.com/
View the video; think about it.

"Hell is empty, and all the devils are here" (Shakespeare)
RP 2012~ Intellectual Revolution.

Your husband served for a lie from your government.

And also I did and am so sorry for the Vietnamese people that I caused any problems or destruction and will forever have their souls on my mine. May they please forgive me for the ignorant actions I did on behalf of my government.

It is hard to imagine a more stupid or more dangerous way of making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people that pay no price for being wrong.
Thomas Sowell

You cannot blame yourself. I

You cannot blame yourself. I do not dishonor you. You would have taken a bullet for all of us. That is a very honorable thing.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that ALL libertarians do not

want to protect life, or that ALL of them approve of, or agree with abortion.

Such is not the case.

There are plenty of pro-life libertarians, I'm one of them. Welcome.

A few of you on here have

A few of you on here have called me a hypocrite because while I am against murdering babies I also have said that I am proud of my husband for his service in the Marine Corp and proud that my son wants to be like daddy.

To be clear. My husband served years ago. While I don't support how our troops are being used I will never dishonor a man risking his life for me. Shame on all of you. I would like every last one of you to go to a veterans hospital and tell them how you feel. Go tell that to a weeping mother or widow because her son or husband died for you.

It is hard wired in a man to want to live a life of duty and honor. There was a time when serving your country was honorable.

And for those saying I don't deserve to have children because I have had multiple miscarriages....would you ever say that to someone's face? Would you ever say that to someone who has lost a child outside the whom? Have anyone of you assholes ever lost a child?

If you are raising a family

If you are raising a family of murderers that you are proud of, why are you here?

Wait...so all those vets and

Wait...so all those vets and current men and woman in the military don't belong here? Is this your strategy for winning? Why are you here?

"Wait...so all those vets and

"Wait...so all those vets and current men and woman in the military don't belong here?"

I never said that. I said anyone who is proud of a murderer doesn't belong here. Your family is the problem yet you find time to chat on a msg board. Clean up your own house being becoming political. It would do the world just.

If you think that those serving in our military

don't belong there, that they're murderers, move to NK as I'm sure you'll feel safe there. According to your comments, we may as well raise the white flag to Russia, China, NK and Iran.

I bet you supported draft-dodging Bill Clinton.

Where do these people come

Where do these people come from?

Emperor...somehow we got off

Emperor...somehow we got off on the wrong foot. The fact that a wife loves and respects her husband and a son whom looks up to his father is offensive to you. I feel sorry for you.

You should feel sorry for me.

You should feel sorry for me. Here I am minding my own business while retards are out breeding me and destroying the whole fucking planet. We need MORE abortions.

They do belong here.

They are older and wiser and aware of the cost/benefit ratio of the actions in the theater they operated in.

"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty" TJ

Somehow I think you've

Somehow I think you've misunderstood me. My point about the military is that I would never shame a man who has vowed to die for me. Why is that so wrong in your eyes. I am well aware that our military is being used for the wrong reasons. Long ago it was considered an honor to serve. And not everything they do now is bad.

Yet some of the people here including you have espoused nothing but hate for our military men and woman. Yet during the elections everyone bragged about how Ron Paul got the most donations from them.

FYI...there are a lot of current people in the service that come here too.