9 votes

Libertarians and their abortion problem

How selfish are we to draw a line as to when life begins or when it is appropriate to abort a life? Most abortions are done because of burden. It is a burden when the mom or dad are not ready for various reasons. It is a burden when it is not planned. It is a burden when other methods of birth control fail. And yes, it is even a burden when it is a forced insemination.

You call yourselves freedom fighters. You come here to spout all your knowledge about Liberty. Tell me something...is it not Liberty for all? Why is a life in the womb...the most defenseless of all...not entitled to Liberty?

A wise man once said "how can we protect liberty if we can't protect life?"

If libertarians won't defend all life than I want no part of it.



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Valid arguments on both sides

Once the killing of the born stops, whose right to life is disputed by no one, then it makes sense to worry about this wedge issue. Until then the subject of abortion is a waste of time.

The corrrect libertarian

The corrrect libertarian stance on abortion is opposition. This is simply because there is more than the liberty of the mother at stake...there is also the liberty of the unborn child, so the ONLY correct stance is opposition...its not like opposition to abortion means the death of the mother...but agreement means the certain death of the child. Now that much is pretty clear...where it starts to become foggy is whether force is justified in the situation, since force can not be applied without further imposotion on the liberty of the mother and could in some cases put her life in danger. Then you have the questions raised in rape cases. The very uncertain moral ground though make it so the use of force to uphold the libertarian view is unjustified.

I agree that there needs to

I agree that there needs to be cautious consideration in some situations but remember...death is not the only option. Lots of people waiting in line for a baby. Why not give your gift to a loving family? Turn a tragic and horrific situation into a good and moral one.

Only

One per cent (of aborting women) reported that they were the survivors of rape (NAF).

"Hell is empty, and all the devils are here" (Shakespeare)
RP 2012~ Intellectual Revolution.

I'm glad you posted this topic,

I had something on my heart

I had something on my heart and wanted to write about it. Not everything I write gets this much attention. Here's to hoping to change the hearts and minds of people...isn't that why we're here?

Write ON!

and keep on writting on!

If we only wrote about new

If we only wrote about new stuff than there wouldn't be much to say here. Politics is always the same ol' same ol'.

Children aren't really human

Until they are 12 yrs old anyway, seems like we should be able to abort our children until they are 12 if they are a burden, or if they piss us off.

Remember it would be un-libertarian of you not to let me follow my own personal belief.

Nailed it.

Nailed it.

Andrew Napolitano for President 2016!
http://andrewnapolitano.com/index

"Patriotism should come from loving thy neighbor, not from worshiping Graven images." - ironman77

That is your belief.

That is your belief. Libertarianism is not about imposing our beliefs upon others by force, fascism is.

FYI...nobody is forcing their

FYI...nobody is forcing their belief on you. We're not forcing you to belief in Santa for crying out loud! Life is life...stop ignoring the facts.

What we have here is a lack of respect for life.

It is not a matter of belief.

It is not a matter of belief. Stop ignoring the facts. It is a life.

Look. It has hands and feet. It has a heartbeat. It is a growing human being. A baby.

http://clinicquotes.com/abortion-at-8-weeks-pictures/

SteveMT's picture

Protecting the unborn from their own mothers? Hmmm.

How far do you want to go with this? Drug testing the mothers-to-be once a trimester, once/month, or maybe everyday, or several times per day perhaps to ensure that these women aren't "harming" their babies? No smoking either. What to do if they are using anything "bad?" Jail them? Brain damaged babies, fetal alcohol syndrome babies, drug addicted babies, genetically damaged babies are all reasons to punish these mothers who were forced to carry their babies to term. They will put into a prison of course. Will these women be forced to breastfeed their babies? After all, that is healthier than formula, and if we're going to force them to term, then forcing them to breastfeed their kids follows along this same line of bizarre thinking. Will we force them to read to their kids also? What will be the punishments for these various crimes against their children, which we have forced them to deliver? Get a grip people. This issue is a distraction.

No. But a woman who

No. But a woman who physically harms their child puts them in harms way outside the whom is guilty of a crime is she not. We cannot ignore the fact that there is a life because it's easier. Nobody ever said it would be easy to protect this life but we cannot simply ignore the facts.

SteveMT's picture

Imagine a bunch of damaged babies. What then?

Do you play chess? Try to think 5 moves ahead, not just one. In other words, "blowback." Who would want to care for babies on drugs, nerve damaged, genetically damaged, learning disabled, etc.? These abnormalities may take years to surface, so many won't want the emotional trauma of adopting and only later finding out about these problems. If no one wants them, would we pick up the tab or the respective states? Would you allow individual states to vote whether they want such a law or just ram it down their throats like our present administration did with Obamacare?

What about babies with downs

What about babies with downs syndrome or spinal bifida? Let's kill them all too so maybe we can live in a perfect beautiful society.

As I pointed out before....there situations that need to be handles with caution and care.

SteveMT's picture

Genetic testing is done for these women at risk.

That is part of their prenatal care. The physician is aware and the patient is aware so there are no surprises at delivery. They decide whether they still want them or abort them. Most do, but some do not. It is their choice knowing this information. However, some problems are not testable. They surface in the pediatric years, or at puberty, or in early adulthood.

Anyway, you just changed the subject from what I asked about to downs and spina bifida. Nice try. You didn't answer anything about what I ask. You don't play chess. Do you even play checkers or is it Tiddly Winks?

Let me say it again. As I

Let me say it again.

As I pointed out before....there situations that need to be handles with caution and care.

I don't have all the answers. Never claimed to. But just because we don't have the answer doesn't mean we continue with what's wrong.

SteveMT's picture

You don't have ANY answers.

You advocate for an un-thought-out law/rule that you want implemented, but your thinking-this-through ends there. Come back when you've done some follow-up thinking about this. If this was a business proposal, you would be thrown-out with a thud.

What I do know Steve is this

What I do know Steve is this so far.

We shouldn't provide clinics
And a doctor (not a practitioner) should help determine whether mom (or baby in some cases) is at risk and the pregnancy should be terminated.

How the law should deal with it is something I would be open for discussion.

At least I am humble enough to admit I don't have all the answers unlike some people here. But what I do know is that what we currently have is wrong.

I do appreciate you challenging me. I am always open to learn. I understand the "libertarian" view to a point but I am unable to be persuaded past the idea of an innocent life being murdered. I don't know how to get passed that. I used to be able to ignore it but after waking up and learning more and more I find it harder and harder to turn a cheek on this one. I'm sorry, I can't do it. I feel there has to be a better answer.

I really don't understand how

I really don't understand how difficult it is to understand common sense. Sex is mating. If you aren't ready (mature enough) to have a child, you certainly aren't mature enough to have sex. These people act like there is some force out there forcing them to have sex. Again. I don't get it. I've kept it in my pants for 29 years this Thursday. I have no desire to share any part of my life with anyone else, and I have no desire to share my paycheck with anyone else, nor work a "career" that has added responsibilities like doing company stuff outside of work, versus a job where you put in your 40 a week and nothing else is expected of you. People who have sex and aren't ready for kids are SELFISH idiots. I will tell you to your faces that you aren't even doing it as some emotional bonding bullshit. You're doing it for your own self-gratification.

Please come join my forum if you're not a trendy and agree with my points of view.

Abortion is legal...

Abortion is legal dammit. So if you don't want one, then don't get one. If you're against them then tough tit. Lots of immoral endeavors are legal (homosexuality comes to mind), but I'm not the morality police. Personal decisions are between people and God. He will judge all. I refuse to pretend to be God by judging and dictating as many on this thread appear to masterfully do. Are you going to single out fat/obese people next? Smokers? Alcoholics? Gun owners? Who's next?

Since when is killing another

Since when is killing another human a personal decision. Why do you choose to ignore that this is a life we are talking about?

Whatever label you wear

In 2008, approximately 1.21 million abortions took place in the U.S., down from an estimated 1.29 million in 2002, 1.31 million in 2000 and 1.36 million in 1996. From 1973 through 2008, nearly 50 million legal abortions have occurred in the U.S. (AGI).

In 2009, the highest number of reported abortions occurred in New York (119,996), Florida (81,918) and Texas (77,630); the fewest occurred in Wyoming (≤20), South Dakota (769) and North Dakota (1,290) (CDC).

In 2009, 85% of all abortions were performed on unmarried women (CDC).

50% of U.S. women obtaining abortions are younger than 25; women aged 20-24 obtain 33% of all U.S. abortions and teenagers obtain 17% (AGI).

Women living with a partner to whom they are not married account for 25% of abortions but only about 10% of women in the population (NAF).

At current rates, nearly one-third of American women will have an abortion (AGI).

On average, women give at least 3 reasons for choosing abortion: 3/4 say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or other responsibilities; about 3/4 say they cannot afford a child; and 1/2 say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner (AGI).

88-92% of all abortions happen during the first trimester, prior to the 13th week of gestation (AGI/CDC).

54% of women having abortions used a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant. Among those women, 76% of pill users and 49% of condom users reported using the methods inconsistently, while 13% of pill users and 14% of condom users reported correct use (AGI).

40% of minors having an abortion report that neither of their parents knew about the abortion (AGI).

______________________________________________________________________

What's the answer to this; education, parental control, morality, responsibility?..
or maybe just pull up your pants and go home.

Abortion is just genocide by another name.

http://www.abort73.com/abortion_facts/us_abortion_statistics/
Statistics: Abort73.com

"Hell is empty, and all the devils are here" (Shakespeare)
RP 2012~ Intellectual Revolution.

Facts!

Facts!

PTSD and Suicidal Ideation

A major random study found that a minimum of 19% of post- abortion women suffer from diagnosable post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Approximately half had many, but not all, symptoms of PTSD, and 20 to 40 percent showed moderate to high levels of stress and avoidance behavior relative to their abortion experiences. (AF)

Approximately 60 percent of women who experience post-abortion sequelae report suicidal ideation, with 28 percent actually attempting suicide, of which half attempted suicide two or more times. (AF)

"Hell is empty, and all the devils are here" (Shakespeare)
RP 2012~ Intellectual Revolution.

another not mentioned

is the number of suicides occur after women have abortions, it's in the low thousands per year.

a woman's body

Liberals will be against a woman being a prostitute, saying she has no right, but in reality she has a total right, it's her body she is not hurting anybody or anything.

However, somehow liberals believe killing a baby even well into the third trimester has something to do with her body, when it absolutely has nothing to do with her body and has everything to do with another's body and life.

So all Liberals...

So all Liberals are principally pro-prostitution? It is a woman's body, and she may do with it as she pleases. Interesting.