31 votes

Zionism...

It seems there's a large amount of confusion about the therm "Zionism" so I thought maybe we could have a calm discussion about it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

"Zionism ... is a form of nationalism of Jews and Jewish culture that, ... came to support its creation in the territory defined as the Land of Israel."

Ok, so if someone is ANTI-Zionist, it means they are against the "nationalism" of Jews in the geographical area now called "Israel". Does it mean that someone who is opposed to Zionism is someone who wants to see all Jews dead?? No (although such people exist). There are actually many Jews themselves who are opposed to Zionism. I met some of these rabbis during the Ron Paul campaign: http://www.truetorahjews.org/. Guess you can't try to label them with being Jew haters (well, you could, but you would look like a fool).

If someone is pro-Zionist that means they are for the application of force being used to remove others from this geographical area to make room for these others who you want to move in there. Historically this has already taken place and the new arrivals have already been placed in that area and as one would expect, it has caused a great deal of hard feelings between those who were there and the newcomers (who woulda thunk it?)

Ok, it's true that I'm against the forceful expulsion of these dwellers by people who did not historically live there in recent history so I can be accurately labeled an "anti-Zionist" but I am not a Jew hater. I am not a hater of any biological group of people. I do find it strange how some groups of people will express hatred for me for taking such a stance against violently expelling people from their homes so that others can live there... Doesn't seem like the "Christian" thing to do to me.

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Chuck Baldwin Until people of

Chuck Baldwin

Until people of faith are willing to walk with their feet, nothing will happen. We can spiritualize all we want, but nothing will happen until we literally WALK.

Martin Luther walked up to the Castle Church in Wittenberg and used a real hammer and nails to post a real 95 Theses on a real church door. Zwingli took a real sword into a real battle and died a real death in defense of real liberty. The pilgrims walked out of one European country after another until they climbed into real boats that sailed over a real ocean and landed in a new land in search of real freedom. Our patriot forebears wrote a real Declaration of Independence and fought a real revolutionary war in order to bequeath to their posterity real liberty. Dietrich Bonhoeffer separated from the German Church and formed a real protest movement known as the Confessing Church and collaborated with a real conspiracy to rid a real tyrant from his country. The list is endless.

To, again, quote Bonhoeffer, “Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act.”

Yet, all over America, Christians refuse to walk away from those churches that are, through their silence, facilitating the enslavement of their very own children and grandchildren. Worse yet, they refuse to walk away from churches that actively promote the political policies that would enslave their posterity.

How long are you going to wait for your pastor to wake up? How many links must be added to the chains of oppression before you decide you might need to find a pastor and church that are engaged in the liberty fight? How long are you going to support your pastor’s indifference and ignorance? Let me be blunt: as long as your pastor is preaching to a packed church, as long as the offering plates are full, as long as his ministry is “successful,” you are going to be waiting for a long, long time for him to awaken.

The children of Israel walked out of a country that had put them in bondage; the spiritual children of Abraham today (all who believe on Christ) need to walk out of a church that would put them in bondage. The good news is the exodus has already begun.

There is a lot more in my column coming out this week. I hope you will read it.

Some of you ZIONIST

Some of you ZIONIST Christians need to read the words of Jesus himself. Revelations chapter 2, verse 9 and Revelations chapter 3, verse 9. Those who call themselves Jews but are not are going to be in for a rude awakening. Don't follow them down the same path.

I always had this question in the back of my head that made me seek an answer. If the Jews are Gods chosen people, then why would he put them at the heads of the murdering theiving huge banks? Jamey Dimon at JP Morgan etc. All those huge banks are hit for manipulating markets and basically stealing money from us. Then, look at the entertainment industry. Again run by Zionists but all the trash they put out with all the sex, the occult etc, does not represent God very well. And these are just a few examples. Something just didn't click... I'm supposed to be for these people. So I researched, I prayed and the answer finally came.
Zionists are not blood in the veins Hebrews. Research folks. Granger, I hope you get out of your brainwashing soon. All of us have to at some point. And yes the catholic church is in on it. THINK FOR YOUR SELF!

Being a Christian Zionist

Being a Christian Zionist once, I studied and found how wrong I was. I sure wish granger and a few others would truly study the word of God and see where they have been misled like I was for so many years. Maybe you should read up on why the orthodox Jews and the Zionists HATE each other. Once you get that info, everything falls into place.

Yeah, you just wanted to "clarify"....

Sure, you do not hate Jews.

And the comment threads below did not turn into a despicable hateful anti-semitic threads.

Sure. Whatever.

It was a very good idea to

It was a very good idea to bring this up... and an even better idea to clearly define your terms.

One confusion that occurs is when an anti Zionist complains about the actions of Zionist, but uses the label "Jews" in their accusations. It does happen, though it can be hard to tell if they really mean all Jews, or actual Zionist. The confusion continues all the more when a Zionist (especially of a certain Christian Evangelical type) reads or hears the word 'Zionist' in a negative light, and automatically converts the term to 'Jews'. It happens all the time in my experience.

ChristianAnarchist's picture

Education is the key. We

Education is the key. We have to understand the terms and make corrections without hesitation when there is an attempt to confuse the issue by substituting terms like "Jew" for "Zionist" or other common terms. This is EXACTLY why I started this thread, so that some people will learn the difference and armed with that knowledge, will set others straight...

Beware the cult of "government"...

Interesting topic

As DP's resident self-described Zionist, I'd be curious to hear what Granger believes a two-state solution would look like.

How would you resolve the issues? What would you put on the table from the Palestinians and the Israelis?

Aside from the usual Lawmanjed personal insults, it's been interesting reading everyone's opinions.

I believe a two state solution would be temporary

Israel has an Amnesty list of nearly 2 million people (population today is about 8 million). Refugees from Sudan, Syria and other places are illegally moving in.. many Palestinians are dependent on Israel.. why they complain about the wall is they have longer to travel to get into Israel to go to school, work.. they don't like being cut off from Israel. The proudest and happiest Arabs in the world live in Israel.

Israel does not want to expand to the point they can not control borders.. let's not forget, 400K+ Jewish families were forced out of Gaza by Israel and Israel gave Gaza to the refugees.. we see how well that generous act turned out?

So I think the two state solution means well.. but once borders are established, then Jihad against Jews internationally would go into effect.. where Jews from all over the world will be targetted and there will be no way from them to get Amnesty in Israel because not just Jews.. but many people want to move to Israel and there will be no place for them.. I know no one who wants to move to Gaza or Palestine. Do you?

Israel just made a peace agreement with Jordan's Palestine for water.. So Israel, which already provides electricty and water to Gaza will now provide that to the West Bank. and I think that this is how Israel will continue to expand.. It would not shock me one bit to see Israel take Jordan, not in war.. but because Jordan is dependent on Israel.. so is Egypt.. actually.. so are many of us.. there was a post on this thread.. below.. saying about Israel becoming the global head.. and I think this will be true.. but not as others see it.. I see it will be true because Israel is advancing humanity with technology.. no one can compete, so the world is becomming dependent. I don't see ending Israel as the solution, but competing with Israel. We need to compete with Israel.. but you have to know your competition to beat it without violent force, and this Jihad creates hate, not competition.

Gaza has never been Israel's

Gaza has never been Israel's to give! The Palestinians have densely populated Gaza ever since they were kicked out of Israel. Your ignorance on this issue is so disheartening!

It would be quite ironic

If a one state solution was the end result. Considering that it was one state to begin with.

Israel's Arab population is expanding rapidly, so we end up with roughly the same demographics as before the colonial meddling, a Jewish minority living among an Arab majority.

That would be quite the height of irony.

Here's a link you may find interesting Granger, it gives a sharp definition of colonial interests whipping up the entire region:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-25299553

Excellent Video, Every American Needs to See It.............

..................

Radical Islam Takeover of America

Meet my downvoters:

Wrong video sorry...

I don't want to spam so....

Are Jews The Chosen People?

Religion
Video

Title: 937 - Heritage Of Israel

Author: Walter J. Veith

Description: Tradition holds that those who are born of the sons of Abraham can receive salvation by this merit alone. There are many people who claim to be from the tribes of Israel. This DVD examines this belief in light of Scripture. What was the purpose of Israel? Does salvation come through the Jewish nation? Is salvation even possible through birthright? The meaning of the Jewish feasts is also examined, along with the question of the name of Jesus.

Category: Rekindling the Reformation - English

http://youtu.be/E-WMjEl9fQg

Thanks. I enjoy Walter Veith's lectures.

I have watched quite a few and have learned from them. The picture he paints here is one of utter confusion and that is the hallmark of the churches of Babylon. I believe that there is always a grain of some truth in these different "Christian" religions but it is so distorted it is unrecognisable.

The Dispensationalist error, dividing the Church and Israel, is a grievous one. As I was listening to Walter speak about it it came to me that it is not merely an eschatological doctrinal error. It strikes at the very foundation of the faith of Christ.

"For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility." (Ephesians 2:14-16)

I doubt that most of those Christians who believe this doctrine and embrace "Israel" as the "chosen people" are aware of the danger. They have swallowed a very deceptive brew of truth and error and in doing so have denied and even betrayed the Lord who purchased them with His own blood.

"And they sang a new song, saying,"

"Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth." (Revelation 5:9-10)

I do not believe that any one man or woman has all the truth. This is why our Father made us one Body, in His Son, with many members, so that we might learn from one another and correct and admonish each other in love when necessary. Personally I continue to learn new things every day and the more I learn the more I realise how little I truly know.

"Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known." (1 Corinthians 13:8-12)

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

So, now the Bible doesn't mean what it says...

... and Veith is going to interpret God's word for us? Sure.

I know who THAT comes from. And it ain't the Big Guy in the sky.

Chapter and verse please

Chapter and verse please

"and the truth shall make you free"
John 8:32

I fear that this is going to end badly someday.

As a christian who has come to reject dispensational theology, which is were Christian Zionism stems from, I find little to no reason Biblical, to support modern day Israel. In fact I would say the opposite is true. That said, as a libertarian I believe Israel should stand or fall on it's own.

John 4:19 The woman said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.”

21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

amen.

acts 10:34-35

With all due respect, I will no longer be a voting prostitute for Constitution rejecting harlots.

"The Earth is the Lord's…"

"The Earth is the Lord's and everything in it, the world and all who live in it". (Psalm 24:1)

The Bible if full of similar statements that make clear that God is sovereign and the owner of everything He has created. He also raises up kings and rulers and replaces them according to His Plan and purposes. There is nothing happening anywhere on Earth or in the Heavens apart from His sovereign will. He also takes responsibility for everything that happens and will in due time demonstrate His righteousness to all Creation. There is nothing that is hidden that will not be revealed.

Unless one makes this truth the foundation of any attempt to understand what is happening in Palestine then the result will be utter confusion of mind, delusion and participation in the maelstrom of violence and revenge that consumes that region.

To whom has God given this piece of real estate for the time being and why has He done so? That is surely the first question that must be asked by anyone who claims that the people to whom some of the land was given by the Security Council of the U.N. in November, 1947, and who have taken control of the rest, the Jews, have a divine right to do what they have done and are doing. Most evangelical Christians and Messianic Jews will answer that the State of Israel is the re-gathering of the ancient people of Israel to their homeland.

In actual fact such a belief is contradicted by the scriptures relating to the laws of tribulation which do not permit any such return until these people who have rejected Messiah have received Him and declared "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord". The real reason for the Land being given to the Jews is that they contain within their nation the Edomites, the descendants of Esau, and they are owed a recompense for the way in which Jacob, the father of all the Israelites, obtained the Birthright and his father Isaac's blessing by deception, i.e. unlawfully. Before the end of the Age this account must be settled and it has been. Esau, who has always coveted the Land now has it in his control. The behaviour of the Israelis is fully in keeping with the violent character of Esau, the son of the flesh. So, the answer to the second part above, why has He done so, is to recompense Esau.

Now, when God gives authority to any people to rule over Jerusalem He also gives them the responsibility to bring forth the Kingdom of God. [This is why He expelled the original people from the Land, first from the Northern Kingdom between 745 B.C. and 721 B.C. then from the Southern Kingdom in 586 B.C. and then for the second time He destroyed the city and the nation in 70-73 A.D.] The present Jewish State took control of Jerusalem in 1967 and officially annexed it as the capital of the State of Israel in 1980. This gives us two starting points for the time during which the Jewish State must bring forth the Kingdom of God.

The question is have they done so or indeed can they do so? Since the Kingdom of God is righteousness, joy and peace in the Holy Spirit it is evident that they will never be able to fulfil that requirement. However, the clock is running on their period of probation. This may be 40 years or it may be 46 years (the time it took to build the Herodian Temple, a type of the counterfeit Kingdom created by the efforts of men). Therefore the end point for the present Jewish State may be 2007, 2013, 2020 or 2026. In any event these years should manifest some evidence of the collapse. Have 2007 and 2013 manifested any such evidence? I leave that for the discerning reader to decide.

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

deacon's picture

This discerning reader

says,We are grafted into the vine,this would indicate that we are his family
If we are part of that family,then he is not "lord" "master" or any other title that denotes nobility..to be sure,my parents are not over me,they are not more important,nor would i ever call them anything that puts me under them
Yes I know,he/him/her or what alleged created us,but is seems we are on the same step according to the word

If we deny truth before your very eyes,then the rest of what we have to say,is of little consequence

My perspective on that

Jesus is God, He is THE Prince of Peace, and if you believe, then you claim Jesus as LORD GOD because you strive to follow him as your savior and leader. It is your choice.

deacon's picture

If that's the case

that jesus is god,then he wouldn't have prayed to him
when asked by his disciples about the end of days,he told them only the father knows the time,now wouldn't he have said ONLY I know,and I am not telling?
He might be my savior,But he doesn't lord over me,and I do not think that was ever in the word of GOD,honestly,i believe that was added to have people submit,as claiming a lord,that kind of removes that whole free will deal
I COMMAND YOU...really,where is the free thoughts,the common sense
and the free will in that statement?
Pray unto me,and i will intercede for you,to the father in heaven,if jesus is GOD,does he have a split personality?

If we deny truth before your very eyes,then the rest of what we have to say,is of little consequence

Jesus Christ has

a dual nature. He is both Jehovah and man. Folks get confused when they fail to distinguish the two.

Philippians 2:6 is helpful "6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

John Adams

You are very close

You are close, that's for sure.

Keep searching for truth. Christ also has his father, God. He has parents who watch from afar.

Have to agree there

It also ignores the possibility of there being a malign influence in the Bible, an alien influence who is elevating the status of certain things and denying the spirit. Denial of the Holy Ghost.

Yet that then brings into question other things...If Jesus embodied the spirit of God at times, did they just assume he was? And then when he prayed to his father, did they not know that he was praying to his real God the father. It would sure reveal the contradictions here.

deacon's picture

let those

with discernment read/hear and see what my words mean
My people die for a pack of knowledge...just what is that knowledge?..if one cannot read it in their bibles
Guess that would go back to....chapters/books taken out
Why is there a record of solomon wearing a ring to conjure up demons/spirits?
why does the bible record a wheel within a wheel? jacobs ladder?
abimilech? also recorded but taken out,was a kid,slept for apparently 66 yrs
went back to the temple,didn't recognize anyone? ripvanwinkle,comes to mind
the bible record,to be absent of the body,is to be present with the lord...
but it also records 3 people being transported with their bodies intact
the story of moses in a basket happened,and was recorded by other cultures
the great flood from the bible,same thing,recorded by other cultures

If we deny truth before your very eyes,then the rest of what we have to say,is of little consequence

And then the Book of Enoch

Which was removed by a malign influence.
Book of Enoch led to the other scriptures, and then the Pearl of Great Price. From there we all paid a mighty price.

As the Lord's very words warned about false prophets coming hither in the King James Bible, including Marduk who spews forth an idolatrous prophecy. It was such errors, which white washed Jerusalem's numerous sins.