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Biblical Submission to Government

Romans 13:1-2 is often greatly misunderstood. Many Christians interpret this passage of Scripture to mean that we should offer unquestioning obedience to government, even if it's an evil and corrupt government. This is simply not true. Most people fail to consider verse 3, "For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil." Clearly, God is speaking about GOOD government in Romans 13... because they are a terror to evil works, i.e., crimes. But what happens when our government becomes a terror in itself, committing blatant heinous crimes before our very eyes? The Word of God commands us to submit to HONEST government. So why do so many pastors today attempt to lead their congregations into unquestioning loyalty and submission to criminals in The White House? Do you think this pleases the Lord?

This is so tragic! Doesn't anyone do their homework? No, and that's the big problem! Most Christian leaders are no better than the average ignorant U.S. citizen or church member who is brainwashed by the television. In fact, many people are being brainwashed by ignorant preachers. I say this respectfully. Why doesn't anyone listen to Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney? She is one of our elected officials. She stated in February of 2006 that a CRIMINAL SYNDICATE is controlling America! Here's a video of Congresswoman McKinney grilling Donald Rumsfeld over DynCorp's sex slaves, missing trillions of dollars from the Defense Department's budget, and the unannounced government war games on the morning of 911. Congressman Ron Paul has repeatedly warned the American people about the dangers of the Patriot Act, and the Coming Police State! Yet, Most of America's preachers, evangelists, and pastors could care less. Why won't they search the matter for the truth? Are they afraid of losing financial support? Are they afraid they might find the truth? Or is it that they just don't care? There is NO excuse! What kind of preacher can ignore all the corruption and evils in our government, and only preach sugar-coated sermons to his congregation? I'll tell you, a blinded or careless preacher! It is ludicrous for a pastor to maintain the attitude that Satan must run his course, while not even lifting a finger to do something about it. Look, God doesn't expect us to do more than He has enabled us to do; but, we can all share the truth with others. Ephesians 5:11 commands us to EXPOSE the works of darkness.

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SteveMT's picture

That's why religion is called "the opiate of the masses."

Be submissive now. Be meek in this life. Don't make trouble. Submit to your God-instilled government. Don't store up for yourselves treasures on earth where moths and rust doth corrode. Gold does not corrode, btw. The Almighty should have known that.

Who do you think wrote this stuff?: the Almighty or others pretending to be the Almighty as a means of enslaving us in this world.

The fact that either interpretation can be justified is the reason to throw all of this ambiguity out. The Almighty is not ambiguous: He would never have written such a thing.

Hey down voter...

You are really freaking out right now, aren't you :). The cat is out of the bag more and more every day. 2 billion people on this planet align themselves with historically documented pedophiles and murderers. Sadly, many call themselves American patriots.

You will never stop the ongoing exposure of the psychopaths you protect and worship. Never, ever will you.

lol Visit this link if you want to see what you sound like.

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SteveMT's picture

The truth is not being heard here.

Osmosis can work given enough time for this stuff to sink in. Don't hold your breath.

Submit to 'honest' government? Then Christians are anarchists!

If only they understood the bible properly. Awesome!

I knew I liked Christians for a reason:D

Most fail to understand this within the context of our laws

The thing that it seems nearly everyone always misses here is this in context of our Laws.

Romans 13-

Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

Who is the supreme governing authority in our law?

We the People!

Where do just (lawful) powers of government come from?

Consent of the Governed!

When one examines the common law aspects behind such acknowledgement of these laws founded into our strict construction of organic laws we can see several items that provide more clarity in congruency within all law and find the correct interpretation of Roman 13 within our divinely inspired law.

Common Law of Agency- a lawful agent requires a principal that which operate on behalf of. The principal is liable for the acts of the agent and therefore the man/woman acting as agent must stay within the lawful bounds of his/her agency to maintain limited liability as a lawful agent.

Common Law Right to face your accuser-
any accused has the lawful right to face their accuser in any court action (laws of nature permitting).

Common Law of Contract-
all elements that make up a valid contract are present.

Common Law of Valid Cause of Action-
all elements that make up a valid cause of action are present for any court action. backed up by the law maxim- An action is not given to one who is not injured

Common Law of Equal Justice under the Law-
The Law is no respecter of persons

Common Law of outlaw status-
One who does not answer to an accusation of an accuser has chosen to live outside of law and therefore voluntarily gives up the protections of law

Organic Law Construction- Governments derive Lawful powers from Consent of the Governed. Equality in Law. Unalienable rights. Rights are endowed by their creator. Supreme Authority to create, alter or abolish Government.

Constitutional Law- We the People created the Government and its bounded capacity

So what does this all mean when interpreted properly without any logical conflict in its application and how can this be seen within Romans 13?

We the People, a group of free equal individuals, are the governing authority. We established a contractual capacity with bounds strictly constructed in our Organic Laws that strictly bounds that capacity at its root that the only access to lawful powers of that agency is through consent of the governed.

We the People as equal men and women governed by law can simply acknowledge that our clarity in law puts us as the supreme governing authority established and explicitly constructed into our laws as divine providence of God. This means we who are governed by law are the Governing authority. As an equally liable man or woman who is willing to accept liability for our accusations against another we are equally supreme in our authority to be the principal accuser who invokes the agency of government agents to act on our behalf for summonsing an accused before a jury to tried for the accusations of some strictly constructed form of Breach of Duty or Breach Peace.

A man who claims to be operating as an agent of the people but has no principal accuser they act on behalf has no consent of the governed and therefore has no lawful claims to limited liability agency. A man claiming to be acting under agency falsely is not operating lawfully and it becomes the duty of the people to identify the unlawful acts and bring justice to the man who fraudulently claimed agency to the people and acted outside of lawful powers. If the man unlawfully claiming to be an agent will not respond to our accusations or any other claimed agent obstructs our lawful path to justice and remedy then it would be THOSE men/women who would not be submitting to the governing authority.

A lawful process of justice, under our laws, would be something like this:

A man breaches peace by trespassing against another harming them in some way thus giving an accuser a valid cause of action against the accused. The man who was harmed would invoke the lawful agents of government power to summons the accused to face a jury. The court would receive the request and provide a forum for the accused and accuser to face one another before a jury and the jury would decide guilt or innocence. If the accused did not face the accuser the jury would determine the man to be an outlaw who has given up protections of law and publish the information at which point We the People, the supreme governing authority, can bring instant judgment upon the outlaw for not submitting to the protections of law. The outlaw in this scenario is the one who has not obeyed God's will whether that be a man operating unlawfully by falsely claiming agency to the People when no principal exists or the outlaw in the Court's who obstruct justice, the outlaw who does not face the accuser in a court of law or even the ninnies out there who want the "government" to handle everything for them without any identifiable chain of liability derived directly from the consent of those governed by law. These are the ones who are not submitting to the governing authority.

Doesn't this clearly demonstrate an obvious failure to understand our laws and God's divine providence by those who believe that we are suppose to submit to outlaw tyrants?

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Great Article

Thank you for posting that. I was just having a talk with my daughter, and she was asking me about this particular verse. I explained to her that our government was set up by our founders so that WE the people are the government and the people we elect to represent us are our public servants. So we are the ones in charge.

Unfortunately, even today, the government does overall reflect the overall attitude of the people.

Jesus-followers, so-called Christians and Government

I do not see this thread a "religion" as much as it has to do with "liberty" .. because there are many caught up in the Christian "religion" here in the USA who need to be set free :) I would hope that every liberty-loving person would want liberty for people who are still blinded by a religious system as well as those blinded by a government system [statism].

That said, those in the Christian Religion are taught to depend on their pastors and teachers to understand what the Bible [incorrectly attributed to be called the Word of God .. it never calls itself that .. only Jesus is referred to as the Word of God] says. Just like government leaders who tell us "we can't handle the truth" .. so to do religious leaders tell their sheep "you can't handle the Truth". :( sad These people follow a book more than they tend to follow Jesus IMHO.

Jesus-followers are more like Dr. Paul .. they do not beat others with their spiritual beliefs .. they don't judge others based on what they might believe any given day ... yup you guessed it ... they are as much a friend of sinners as the One they have learned to love, in a humble way.

A message of love, peace and friendship are quick with those w/o a religious agenda ... fits nicely with the non-aggression nature of those that prioritize individual liberty and freedom :)

Jesus until age 30 humbly did the work of a carpenter in Nazareth .. paying taxes as required and laying low .. it was not yet His time .. but in those last three years {He lived until he was 33] that He befriended beer-up fisherman and tax collectors, he evaded the government ... with no income, no property and no paid staff He could do that .. and that SHOULD be the model for those who gather in His name vs. the corporate based, government-wedded norm we see in the USA compliments of the 501 exemption .. but I digress ...

There are more and more Jesus followers who meet humbly and under the radar who will do well in the years to come should this land come under the stress of financial chaos. The government nor the religions are friendly as they each have their own hidden or not so hidden agendas :(

My 2 cents .. your mileage may vary :)

Sympathetic, but not fully with you

Where you posted: "That said, those in the Christian Religion are taught to depend on their pastors and teachers to understand what the Bible [incorrectly attributed to be called the Word of God .. it never calls itself that .. only Jesus is referred to as the Word of God] says."

Swabby, either we've been reading very different Bibles, or mine got read AND remembered saying more than you ignored.

One of my favorite verses for many reasons, reads this way:

"For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe." - 1 Thessalonians 2:13

That verse is more anti-tyranny than it appears at first. Paul and the other apostles saw themselves as subjects and stewards of the record they delivered, not a special privileged class. They took their service responsibility/accountability much more humbly than those who came along later, pretending to be pastors and popes of similar pomp. Read that whole chapter of 1 Thessalonians 2, for the rest of the story.

Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them. - Frederick Douglass

"word of God" in NT writings is not the Bible

In 21st century glasses it may appear that this part of Paul's personal letter to the Thessalonians is about the Bible .. but it is not. At the time this was written there was not a Bible in every church or every home (in fact, churches were the people, not a building .. that did not start until the 4th century when pagan temples and their priests adopted the new religion of their king). The word of God was the oral stories of Jesus .. yet to be penned. In essence Jesus, all he was and is .. is described as the word made flesh. These writings that were written in AD 45-95 were eventually "canonized" and then placed in non-chronological order into a book we know as the Bible.

Chronologically, Paul's first letter

This was historically credited as the first church in a city/region that Paul wrote to. While we obviously don't have access to the words Paul spoke among the Thessalonians, we do have these two letters. Paul was writing about the content and impact that those spoken words had among them, just as we perceive these written words, to be, " received... not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe." 1 Thes. 2:13b

Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them. - Frederick Douglass

That's not exactly accurate

That's not exactly accurate. The OT was around even before Jesus, and it was read by early Christians. Cf. Acts 15:21, 17:11, and 2 Timothy 3:16.

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TwelveOhOne's picture

Weird, just got an email about Edward Cacye, which makes me

wonder whether Jesus and Edward Cacye were perhaps afflicted with a similar issue.

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Most can't see the same perils in BIG religion

I'm amazed how many prominent and respectable people in the liberty movement so easily identify and call out the perils of big government. Yet, sadly they overlook the exact same patterns in big religion. They will quickly point out how BIG government disregards the constitution and attempts to change its meaning. Yet, they don't take the same view of religion. The bible for Christians would be analogous to their religious constitution; however, they never read it just as most don't read the U.S. constitution they let someone else tell them what it means. If they only spent the same effort understanding the actual content they might awaken to the fact that their big religion resembles nothing of what was written in the bible.

Too Big To Fail

I think you're wrong. The Church is too big to fail.

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SteveMT's picture

"Big religion," I like that term you just coined.

Big religion whether it's Catholic or Protestant leaves much to be desired and mimics the perils of big government. The Catholics have their skeletons in the closet like their 400 years of Crusades, indulgences, and pedophiles. The Protestants have skeletons also: Robert Schuller, Bill and Tammy Bakker, Oral Roberts, Jimmy Swaggart, and Jim Jones to name some. "Big" is bad whether it be associated with government or religion. Big is synonymous with corruption. Thanks.

The sad truth

regardless of what people want to believe, a false Christianity controls this world. It controlled the Nazi regime, and it controls America. How many times did George Bush say God told him to attack after 9/11?

Real Christians are those many "regular Christians" will shun. In fact, those in the Liberty Movement have far more in common with the real Christians, than regular Christians do. Even if only at the very least, those in the Liberty Movement seek truth, "Regular Christians" will shun it.

Power of projection upon belief systems

This video is long: http://youtu.be/yaT2G4fMT4o

http://youtu.be/yaT2G4fMT4o

But presents some interesting food for thought on subject...
The technological ability to project holograms in the sky...
(Think giant "Mother Mary" over Catholic countries or "Angels/Devils/Jesus" over Bible Belt, etc.)
Coupled with technological ability to deliver destruction from sky...
(Think "Oz The Great & Powerful" or "Raiders of the Lost Ark", etc)

The power of projection upon belief systems (preprogrammed) = ?

so true.

so true.

Christians should not be warmongers! http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance87.html

Romans 13 and 15 and kinda an in tandem thing

Romans 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Romans 15:2 2 Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification.

Does it say we should obey them always? or help them always?
No, it does not, it says only when it is "for good."

A better way to look at it, is that if a government is NOT acting in a manor that is for good, then it is time to throw off such government, just like the founders, understood, and did.

submission

A lot of Christian church organizations have been neutered by infiltration of secret agents at the upper levels of their organizations.... in my opinion. This drives their curriculum. In addition people have strong feelings about political subjects and just like their congregation they may not be up on the political facts. They may actually believe the tv news. They may reflect this misinformation occasionally in their sermons but they are probably reluctant to tackle unpopular opinions because like everyone they have to make a living. In the final analysis though politics is not the focus of religion. The focus of Christianity is the condition of your soul. This is why Jesus forgave the paralyzed man first. Being able to discern right from wrong and the condition of your spiritual being is paramount. Everything else is just details.

More blather about the sky being.

Brain death occurs immediately after the neurons stop firing, there isn't any coming back. Resurrection is impossible. There is no 2,000 year old prophet communicating from the sky. If he ever existed he is dead and in his grave -- period. Death is final.

This sky being is a fabrication of ancient witch doctors who had no other way of explaining lightning, the stars, moon, sun, disease, and death. The fabrication became more sophisticated as the priests found better sales pitches. The Bible was written to augment the fiction.

The nothingness that is death is unimaginable. It is impossible for a living person to conceive of nothingness. It cannot be experienced. It cannot be imagined.

Life after death is a great oxymoronic sales pitch. No one wants to die. Who doesn't want to live forever and avoid the great unknown? Billy Graham, Robert Schuler, Jimmy Swaggart and many, many others became rich and powerful selling the fiction.

The Bible does have some geographic accuracies in it and some stories that coincide with historical figures. Possibly some of the characters may have lived. That's as far as it goes.

Was it inspired by some sky being on a cloud? Nah! Ghosts are a fiction and even if existent ghosts couldn't hold a pen with their little phantom fingers The Bible was written by living beings with vivid imaginations inspired by their oral history.

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Would Jesus vote?

Jesus certainly practiced a sort of civil and religious disobedience, but only when civil/religious prohibitions were contrary or in conflict with God's Law, which is to say his primary care was pleasing God. In the context of politics one might even describe him as a voluntarist abiding soley in God's will (which is to say that he was completely above politics). While Jesus generally characterized worldly thoughts and things as distractions from his true focus, God's Kingdom, I do wonder what Jesus would say about democracy. In our particular form of representational democracy (republic), aren't "we the people" investing ourselves in worldly affairs? Would he encourage participation, voting, etc.?

Romans 13? - Yes but

our Constitution doesn't allow for a Caesar.

Who Reigns in America?

Correct. There is no "Caesar" in America. "We the People" reign, ie. we are the sovereign rulers of this blessed nation, who have received our sovereignty from Almighty G-d, made in his image and given dominion and authority to rule ourselves. Our so-called rulers, our President, Governors, state and national legislators, Judges, military, police, etc., etc. are all our public servants. We are their masters and they work for us. We are the "higher authorities". And we are all bound by our state and national Constitutions, which define the limits of our governments. The ultimate authority, of course, is G-d, and the Constitution he gave us, his Word.

PEOPLE OPPOSING TYRANNY - Real Grass Roots!
Are you a POT or a PET - Person Embracing Tyranny?

Pastors won't speak up because of fear.

They are afraid of losing their 501c(3) status,and then they would have to pay the same taxes as the people they tell to pay all their taxes to this evil government.

BINGO!

Nailed it!

501c(3) is Church apostasy.

Unfortunately it's very hard to find one that isn't. :(

"If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy." -- James Madison

What about walking through the valley of death without fear?

If they fear they lose.

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true submission for our nation

the KJV Bible says in Romans 13:1 that we, as Christians, are to submit to the "higher powers"... the "higher powers" in this country is not the executive branch, the judicial branch, or the legislative branch, it is the United States Constitution and the Bill of Rights. this is the higher power that God ordained the country to be under. everyone, including the president, is under subject to the higher powers, in this case, the US Constitution and Bill of Rights.

to those who are interested, Chuck Baldwin did a sermon about this. If you're a Christian, i recommend it to understand an exegetical sermon on this matter. If you're not a Christian, I still recommend this video, because it's the correct view on how Christians should view this issue. too many churches roll over on this and allow oppressive governments rule over them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iacxujli53E

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"If it is treason, then make the most of it!" ~ Patrick Henry