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Setting the abortion discussion straight!

As always I thank you all in advance for the opportunity to post my view on the topic of abortion. As of late there has been any number of threads so related to abortion or anti-abortion persuasions and I feel as though it is important to interject some personal experience herein.

I may have views and opinions that “classify” me as libertarian, however in coming to this way of thought I am not so blind as to common sense and empathy. For those who have never had the misfortune of being directly involved with an abortion or directly involved with almost carrying out an abortion due to any number of circumstances, I find it difficult to understand the blindness of positions thereto absolutisms. The argument for or against abortion is by its context not only haphazard but lazy and trivial.
The argument for abortion and the argument against abortion is really the argument for human abortion and against human abortion, rather pro human-life and pro human-choice.

I’m not implying or suggesting that I have answers that appease, rather that when it comes to such a heavy social issue as abortion, we really need to take a hard, deep look in the mirror at the personal experiences behind the person staring back before we take such an absolute stand on an issue we may not have had any vested experience with or in. It was always easy for me to be the pro-choice advocate, the liberal and progressive thinker when it came to someone else’s body, someone else’s conscience, someone else’s life. When I “woke up” in 2011 it became glaringly obvious to me that my liberal stance on many issues while well-intentioned, were well-intentioned ultimately at the expense of others.

The argument for abortion is one that many make from distant waters without understanding that being for abortion also encompasses the aborting of fetuses diagnosed as deceased in-utero. If you’ve ever had the misfortune of having to choose a method of abortion due to diagnosis of a deceased fetus, let me share with you the incomprehensibility you feel when you actually discover the diagnosis was faulted and would have ended the life of your own child at your own hand without ever having knowledge of such.

To be able to now reflect on the incident and understand that we could have carried out the very act I was so adamantly aligned with as it pertained to others; knowing that our choice in self-administered abortion procedure would have ended the life of our own child without our knowledge is unsettling. Our “choice” was at the mercy of another and was ultimately a choice of limitation based on malpractice. If it wasn’t for the innate feeling that our child was still with us, we would have never opted for a follow up ultrasound and we would’ve never been the wiser to the irreprehensible destruction caused by the “choice” we were given.

The issue of abortion is still an uncertain one for me. I know that I am personally pro-life now, but I understand that even the greatest traumas may never sway the hearts of those afflicted. It is not position to impose my views upon others as the path to one’s view regarding abortion is a personal and devastatingly poignant one. The argument for legislating abortion is ridiculous. At what point are we all supposed to be persuaded by the opposition as it directly relates to our individual and personal experiences regarding abortion?

The issue is not one you can simply take a side on as your conscience will attest. The fools that stand up on the public pulpit and claim they know when life begins are by their very declaration claiming their position on abortion as fundamental and superior. If you acknowledge that life doesn’t begin or end then the whole argument as to such becomes the ultimate hindrance to the progress of the abortion discussion. Does anyone truly believe that when a woman makes the choice to abort her child she has received the “out of jail free ticket”? As a man I cannot and could not fathom the emotional aftermath a woman may experience in ridding herself of the life she bore. As a man I cannot understand the frustration, self-loathing, embarrassment, debasement and remorse a woman would feel in ridding the beat of her own heart of the blood she once shared and kept for another in that the synchronicity of two beating hearts would create an unparalleled symbiosis and attachment.

And as a man I have had to share the experience of choosing which way would be less invasive and detrimental in order to abort the dead child I would never meet. The choice was no less paramount whether the child was deceased in utero or not. When the choice has been made to abort a live child it begets the life that is by the shadows of the life to be taken. And if the discussion concerning pro-life and pro-choice is to continue with ANY genuineness and integrity there must be common appreciation and acknowledgment that pro-life cannot exclude all non-human life and cannot conclude it does; pro-choice cannot exclude the vitality and brilliance of the unborn and cannot conclude that is it secondary to the vitality and brilliance of the bearer.

We need to learn to speak with gentle voices and rather than crushing opposing ideals for vainglorious quest and conquer and righteousness, try to listen to the suffering of those involved and those who have walked in shoes of despair while struggling with the notion that they will never see the tiny ones in the closet filled. Because it really is not enough to proclaim that you are pro-life or pro-choice; actions have and always will speak louder than words. I find it ironic that those who would state they are pro-life so adamantly are quite possibly those who would turn a cheek to the animal feeding operations (CAFO’s) of big agriculture, the displacement of young from their mothers for slaughter and lifelong forced servitude, forced insemination (rape), physical abuse, dismemberment, abhorrent living conditions and the indifference to the very words used to identify the foods consumed.

The integrity of the entire advertisement of animal products does not fall within the scope of information consumers need to know. To say you are pro-life while disregarding or remaining purposely ignorant to the cruelty of the animals/death of the animals you consume or the fact that their sacrifice is unwilling and perpetuated by lack of education and apathy is quite marvelous. But to say you are pro-choice while disregarding or remaining purposely ignorant to the same is also inevitably implied that pro-choice is only pro-human choice. The whole debate over abortion is genuinely about the morality and underpinnings of humanity and no other species we exist amongst.

And why is it that we care so much about the choice of another human being to abort or not abort? Why is it that we are so concerned with the stance of every other person on the issue of abortion to the point of finding fault or disavowing as blasphemous, yet when it comes to our own stance we stand and speak as if we have any authority or permission to speak for those we have never met? I speak for no person but myself and my conclusions are only as conclusive as the next trauma or awakening may allow.

There is talk of peace, yet there is tantamount suffering perpetuated by the hands of those discussing peace. Whether or not we agree that life is precious regardless of specie or the contribution to mankind made, we cannot state absolutes on the issue of abortion and those who do claim such absolutes are possibly absolute in much of their views or are absolute as far as the support of such absolute garners force or control of the opposition.

Peace and Love always.

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A life is created.
Now phugging deal with it.
We promote puppy adoption.
We can promote baby adoption that works.
Rape incest. Phugg you.
The baby shouldn't be sentenced to death because someone is a jerk.
Deal with it.
People are paying and are going to pay the price for murdering defenseless innocents'
Deal with it.
Or it will deal with you.
Any measure. Any... is justified to protect the unborn.

May I add one thing?

The term abortion derives from abort which means to end. If the baby (NOT FETUS) is already dead then you cannot, by definition, abort the baby; it's life has already ended. By removing the child's body from the mother you are alowing for burial and grieving of a precious child and the saving of the mother's life (be it that far along).

Otherwise, as the father of a beautiful baby girl, I agree with you.

Ps. 139 (for the value of the pre-born child)

This is not to say we should not be compassionate toward the animals we raise. The animals are given to us to 'shepherd' and God called Baalam out, through an angel and his own donkey, when he beat her for preventing him from reckless behavior.

"Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern." ~~C.S. Lewis
Love won! Deliverance from Tyranny is on the way! Col. 2:13-15

I wish you would have made it

I wish you would have made it longer to spark my interest...

If you disagree with me on anything you are not a real libertarian...

I easily could have...

but I sense sarcasm...

Father - Husband - Son - Spirit - Consciousness

Okay, here we go.

I'm gonna say it.

My position on the abortion issue - that abortion is murder and murder is wrong - is fundamentally right and superior to the others.

There. I said it. Oh, how arrogant of me! There are absolutes. There will always be absolutes. The entire libertarian philosophy relies on ABSOLUTES.

I also need to add...

How. Dare. You. You DARE to suggest that the life of an animal is in any way comparable to a human life?! That is a truly disgusting sentiment. Do you know why? Because that blade cuts both ways. If an animal is worth the same as a human, then a human is worth the same as an animal.

Until such time as I feel like addressing it, animal welfare takes a very distant back seat to other issues. Do you know why? Because human beings are more important than any animal.

Abortion is murder, murder is a violation of the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, those rights are fundamental to the libertarian philosphy, and THEREFORE abortion is fundamentally opposed to liberty.

Your Agenda 21/PETA/Greenpeace nonsense will soon be consigned to history's vast trash can of failed, morally bankrupt half-baked philosophy.

Yes I dare!

"How. Dare. You. You DARE to suggest that the life of an animal is in any way comparable to a human life?! That is a truly disgusting sentiment. Do you know why? Because that blade cuts both ways. If an animal is worth the same as a human, then a human is worth the same as an animal."

Human beings are animals; mammals in fact. The worth you speak of I'm sure is in reference to worth as far as man's conscious/conscience deems and declares, but that doesn't make it so. All living beings on this earth have a specific purpose and the last time I checked, the snakes, bees, worms, dolphins, gorillas, whales, etc. weren't spending their time demolishing resources used by all, eradicating other species in their race for industrial superiority or displacing other species in their appropriation of lands.

"Because human beings are more important than any animal."

You stated your arrogance in sarcasm, not me, and because you state our importance as primary and above all other animals, because you state it without recognizing such a statement is made by the majority of people at the expense of other living beings, you state it sarcastically and in patronization. That is typically what children might do when they make claims they are not entirely confident in making or make in haste due to being uncomfortable with the position raised by another.

Please explain why we are "more" important? Are we the only specie that has the capacity for reproduction? Are we the only specie that contributes to the global ecology? Are we the only specie that has the capacity for thought, trial, reason and love? Are we the only specie that is capable of creating, building, nurturing and raising their young? Are we the only specie that has the capacities of consciousness, awareness and emotion? You need to think real hard before you make such a claim.

It is exactly this stance that finds the world in the shape it's in today. Instead of helping, fostering and caring for other beings, we are depleting their capacity for life itself.

Father - Husband - Son - Spirit - Consciousness

Do your absolutes include self-ownership?

Does a pregnant women have absolute self-ownership over her body? Cause, you know, the whole libertarian thing is kinda based on self-ownership.

“Although it was the middle of winter, I finally realized that, within me, summer was inextinguishable.” — Albert Camus

Of course she does

She does not have absolute ownership over the life that is inside her body. If the lady were to murder a child the moment it was born naturally she'd be arrested and eligible (here in Texas anyhow) for the death penalty for killing a child. However, magically, this is not the case while the baby is still on the inside. Magically it is not a baby but a "fetus" and I guess that means it is isn't alive or human. However, somehow, people decided to limit this view to some magical moment when the "fetus" now deserves the same protections as a child which it hasn't magically become yet. Magical ...

If it sounds like I'm rambling incoherantly then you realize exactly how stupid this sounds to us. A baby is a baby at conception and there are only two reasons I can think of to remove that baby before it is born.

1) The baby died before birth. Removal of the body allows for burial, grieving, and possibly saving the mother's life. Since the baby is already dead it cannot be an abortion since the pregnancy has already ended.
2) The mother has a high likelyhood of dying. This is a bit more controversial but I cannot force somebody to lay their life down for another. Though I would give mine in less than a heartbeat to save my little girl I can't expect others to do so.

Otherwise you are advocating murder no matter how the baby was conceived.

All I can sum up with is...

when you have a Moral Precedent that has seen to it an Imperial Conquest under the guise of humanitarianism justifying reckless yet calculated murder of innocent people, you will most certainly see such a grandiose example setting precedent in any and every other aspect of humankind.

Abortion is not an issue separate from War. In fact, abortion is just another physical expression of the loss of morality in this world, where War is condoned in order to snuff out the tactics caused by cleverness and corruption and deceit. For far too long we have been living under conditions conducive to the perpetuation of the lessening of morality and humanity.

Father - Husband - Son - Spirit - Consciousness

anyone care to explain why the stock market...

Reacted the way it did?

goldspan, where are you when I need you...


Haha! That's funny! What you

Haha! That's funny! What you just did. Funny.

Cannot explain...

it's a spaz fest.

Father - Husband - Son - Spirit - Consciousness

I like that there is total of zero votes...

as the comments are where we start, and from the beginning in many respects.

Father - Husband - Son - Spirit - Consciousness

A fetus is not a person ...

... it is a POTENTIAL person, IF the mother allows it.

If the fetus were a person, then no person has a right to inhabit the body of another person. Period.

For all who are anti-abortion, I ask one question: Do you think abortion is murder and, if so, do you think a woman who has an abortion should be executed?

that is like saying that you are a potential voter

if the PtB allow it! There is more than enough scientific evidence for the separate personality of a pre-born, at least from an observational standpoint. (or preborn children, for that matter)



www.pregnancy.org/article/top-10-activities-to-engage-your-b... -

"Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern." ~~C.S. Lewis
Love won! Deliverance from Tyranny is on the way! Col. 2:13-15

Denise B's picture

Do you think intentionally causing the death of something

living is murder, especially when that living "something" happens to be a human being in it's weakest most vulnerable form, quite incapable of protecting itself or leaving on it's own?

Marian Webster defines abortion as follows:

"medical procedure used to end a pregnancy and cause the death of the fetus".....cause the death of, cause the death of, cause the death of. Say that over and over again until you understand that abortion does nothing more than cause death.

As someone who does have personal experience with abortion, I can tell you firsthand that it is not a simple procedure that you have done and then walk away and go back to living your life as normal. There is no more normal for a person who has made the choice to end another person's life. I can tell you from personal experience, that for the rest of your life, not a day will go by that you will not despise what you have done and wonder constantly what that child would have looked like, wondered about his/her personality, accomplishments and how profoundly they could have changed and enhanced your life and you theirs, had you not been so selfish and bought into the lie that it was only a "blob of flesh".

Abortion is evil. It destroys a child and leaves emotional pain and scars that never, ever heal. I am a Christian, and I am grateful that my Lord has forgiven me for my selfish and cruel act of murder. I can tell you; however, that I will never forgive myself.

the abortionist should be exicuted

64% of abortions happen when a woman is coerced. It says something when a woman shows up at an abortion mill black and blue and instead of calling the police they abort her baby. The number 1 cause of death of pregnant women is murder. Anybody coercing a woman to have an abortion should be executed.

do you have a link to those stats?

That is eye-opening...thank you.

Father - Husband - Son - Spirit - Consciousness



also google (Induced abortion and traumatic stress: A preliminary comparison of American and Russian women,” Medical Science Monitor 10(10): SR5-16, 2004) for the specific pdf. Also according to the pdf more women in america experience medical complication (30%) from abortion than women in russia (20%)

A fetus is not a person, you are right...

a fetus is a human being.

"If the fetus were a person, then no person has a right to inhabit the body of another person. Period." This is the dumbest comment I've heard regarding abortion. Conception, whether or not mutually contrived, inevitably and evolutionarily produces the fetus (human being) for the progression and ability of our species to reproduce and survive. If a human being wasn't meant to inhabit the body of another human being in conception, gestation and birth then we wouldn't reproduce as we do and we may be non-existent.

A fetus is only a potential person as it pertains to legality in the modern artificial entity regard, but a fetus is a human being whether or not the mother allows it to gestate to birth or not. Abortion in the sense of ending life may be murder, however please do not negate the fact that the one who allows the cessation of life to occur is also the one who gives it in the first place.

I'm not saying that makes it ok. I am saying that it muddies the issue and rather than being a clear cut fact of murder of an independent human being, it is really the cessation of a part of the bearer's life itself AND a choice she has to carry in memory and consciousness for the rest of her life.

Father - Husband - Son - Spirit - Consciousness

I'm not trying to parse words ...

... by saying "person." Human being is fine to use. Same thing in the context I was using.

So ...

Do you think a woman who has an abortion should be executed?

What purpose would execution serve?

She's already executed the most intimate part of herself in aborting what she provides life to. Murder is not cohesive when the other person left standing is also the one who committed the act of cessation to a part of herself.

Father - Husband - Son - Spirit - Consciousness

Most pro life people don't

Most pro life people don't agree with execution.

When performed for the sake of expediency, comfort

and convenience...YES!

You would advocate execution ...

... of a woman who had an abortion?

I said I believe it's murder to abort a viable

fetus. I didn't say I supported execution. I believe most abortions are done for the sake of convenience. Is it OK to intentionally kill someone with your car just because they were in your way and may cause a delay to getting to your destination?

What punishment do you advocate ...

... for murder?

For committing unnecessary abortion?

Community service in a Children's Hospital, caring for victims of botched abortions.

For run of the mill murder, let the juries decide.

If only community service ...

... then you don't REALLY think it's murder.

And that's my point.

I think Harry Browne was wise when he said that he was against abortion, but turning it over to government is a bad idea.

Just look at Obamacare.

Anyway, I don't want to get into a big abortion discussion. It is one of the few topics that divides the freedom movement.

It's just that my experience has been that MOST people who say abortion is murder also cannot come to grips with the idea of severe punishment, either. And that's as it should be.

It is not "murder." It is "abortion." They are not the same thing.

That's really my point.