25 votes

Straight Talk On The 'Gay' Thing

The Perversity of Forcing People Into the 'Gay' Label

Its sad to see people who think they're aiming for tolerance and liberty falling into the trap of groupthink and collectivism.

Homosexuality is not the cut and dried thing it is portrayed as in the popular culture. In fact just talking about it in honest terms, not merely toeing the prescribed PC line, is such a sensitive and uncomfortable issue. Political correctness has made the subject a modern taboo and shibboleth of social acceptability.

But truth has to come out ahead here as elsewhere.

The truth is for some it is a hardwired thing, for others not. It is not a scientific fact to say that every person is born either gay or straight and that's that. There are many shades of grey, and many sexual proclivities and desires that don't fit into either category.

The real debate is between the ideology of sexual license - the indulgence of any and every sexual appetite - and sexual propriety, the idea that it is appropriate to choose and live by a standard of proper behavior regardless of impulses, natural or otherwise. That is every individual's free choice, and it should not be the subject of morality plays and brainwashing campaigns, indoctrination of children or the public, to determine which is right.

How anyone handles their sexual appetites and desires, or any appetite and impulse for that matter, is their business. It is not the domain of state ideology, media brainwashing, school curriculum.

Nor should intolerant "tolerance" campaigns be a battering ram in tearing down cherished and socially valuable beliefs, traditions, cultural institutions and systems of morality and religion that not only serve society, but which are possibly true. They have a right to be in the argument and be heard and not be silenced and cowed and bullied and misrepresented.

If someone has homosexual desires, how they choose to handle it is up to them. It shouldn't mean they are forced either to hide it or to conform to the straightjacket of group-identity. They shouldn't be automatically forced into or pressured into a groupthink mentality and collectivist identity bloc because of it, set with precooked political and (anti)religious beliefs.

No more than ethnic minorities should be forced and pressured into political beliefs and groupthink and bullied around by their own lobbies and self appointed representatives and Pharisees.

Nor should they be told they ought to indulge every impulse rather than taking a different path to be "true" to themselves as "gays" or "[minority group]." That is the true intolerance and dehumanization going on; stripping people of their individuality.

For some, it is not necessarily a hard wired thing, they might just be unsure or on the fence or have competing impulses. Especially as developing young people.

There's no shortage of bisexuals and it is largely a cultural thing, there's way more self avowed bisexual young girls than men, and the girls are often pressured into it, often by young males taking advantage of their impressionability, vulnerability and desire to fit in. To get social approval. Culture plays a big role.

It is the same with young women having a choice as to whether they want to be sexually modest or be sluts. There are lots of pressures on them pulling in different directions, and it is wrong for an organized effort to be imposed to force them to indulge in every sexual desire, proposition or curiosity they might have. To shame them into dropping their beliefs because of their "natural impulses."

I have all kinds of natural impulses I might choose to put on a leash, limit or control, to subordinate to other priorities. You are promoting an ideology of sexual license and indulgence and sexual supremacy over every other consideration under the guise of "tolerance."

Homosexuals have existed forever. Identity politics and promoting it as an ideology, political agenda, curriculum for 7 year olds, and as a weapon against the beliefs of millions of people is new. That's what this comes down to and why people are rallying around this controversy. It is a difference in belief about the role of sexuality and what constitutes proper behavior.

Lots of sexual and other behavior impulses are natural. The range of sexual proclivities is huge and the spectrum of masculinity/femininity in any individual varies. Not everyone who ever has a thought, impulse or ambivalence about their sexuality should be encouraged or bullied automatically into adopting a label and lifestyle they might regret, like some rite of passage and gay bar mitzvah.

Some homosexuals might want to walk in and find their own path, some might want to live in celibacy, some might want to keep their sexuality private, some might want to uphold a lifestyle that doesn't advertise its sexuality and parade it around obnoxiously. Some might want to uphold the traditions and beliefs they were raised in despite their impulses, and see it is a test in their lives.

Some might want to find a mate and helper in life, and father children and have a nuclear family, despite having homosexual impulses. That is something individuals need to discover on their own and shouldn't be force fed one way of thinking or being.

Do you think their weren't homosexuals all through history and prevalent especially in the ancient world, who also had families did not indulge every passion? There have been homosexuals without their being a gay subculture, lifestyle and identity bloc.

Its not just about promoting tolerance, its about promoting and enforcing a lifestyle of sexual license that not everyone would want to or would adopt otherwise if it wasn't being forced on them as the only acceptable choice.

People might have all kinds of sexual appetites which they would choose not to indulge for other reasons, be they religion, moral considerations, discretion, modesty, or desire to have fidelity in marriage with a woman and rear children.

This isn't about tolerance its about an organized, politicized attack on any other lifestyle which recruits everyone who isn't plain vanilla straight into its lifestyle and subculture in a frankly bullying and overbearing way, and leaves them no freedom to find their own way and be individuals. It's just as bad as an enforced closet.

When you want to accuse others, look in the mirror. The tolerance crusader is often the biggest fool and the least tolerant of the liberty of others. Gay people are not objects for your morality posturing nor are they members of a collective for you to define. They are individuals with the full freedom and humanity to define themselves and make their own path in life.

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I experience (exclusive) same-sex attraction

It was never a conscious decision that made me this way. It's just the way it's always been for me. I believe there's likely a genetic component that predisposes some men to have same-sex attraction. This doesn't mean I believe there's a "gay gene" I just happen to believe that certain temperaments/personalities (which are genetically determined) are much more prone to developing same-sex attraction. I'm talking about degrees of sensitivity and subjective perceptions of social situations which will vary from person to person, etc.

I personally believe that what I have is a mental illness. I had gender identity disorder (GID) as a boy and to this day have severe social anxiety around men (rarely with women). Unfortunately, due to my circumstances I've never developed strong friendships with my own gender. I'm not blaming my parents, though an emotionally detached father is very painful, my choices to block out "all things male" in my early years means it's partially my fault, even if I was just a child.

I really like this post because I get so fed up with the society I live in. You have two options - 1) embrace your sexuality and be "happy" and 2) deny your humanity and live a bleak life of constant denial. It's as if our lives are only defined by our sexuality; I don't know about the rest of you, but I just find utterly shallow and repulsive.

As a Christian, I choose to take up the cross and suffer. My goal in life isn't to "convert" to heterosexuality. All I do is choose to say "yes" to Jesus and his way of peace and sanctification. I say "no" to a lifestyle of promiscuity, dangerous sexual practices, and misery. This is the path I have chosen and it has brought me much happiness and peace.

I wish for people to be tolerant and respectful of same-sex attracted human beings. Please don't place us all in a box. Please don't give us special rights. Don't treat us differently.
Both sides here could learn to love a little more.

thanks Bill for a truly excellent post.

"Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle." - Anonymous

Thanks Hort, you're a great

Thanks Hort, you're a great person and friend. Merry Christmas brother!

If you have a choice make the right one

Gays have more ways of self justification than can be kept up with. It cannot be justified any more than any other sin and yes it is cut and dry. As long as there is a choice there is a right and a wrong choice. You do what you want every day which is your right, so continue if you want to, It is your freedom.

Never the less, whatever cannot reproduce by design is an abomination. It makes no difference if it is gays or genetically modified foods.

You being born that way is no excuse. It all comes down to you wanting to do what you want and you want those who know the truth to stay out of it.

So remember this, you have a choice to do as you please, but once you have made the choice and living it you don't have a choice as to how to receive according to those past choices. And if you adopt children they will grow up to be like you because you didn't give them the right to choose their way that you demanded for yourself.

Do you eat shellfish bro?


Fortune Favors the Bold



Gay slaves fight with the straight slaves….Once again

The Gay slaves fight with the straight slaves.

The brown slaves fight with the white slaves.

The christian slaves fight with the muslim slaves.

The poor slaves fight with the rich slaves.

The democrat slaves fight with the republican slaves.

All the slaves play into the divide and conquer plan.
They are addicted to the drama and delusion,
like a giant Jerry Springer audience.

Meanwhile, the slaves are being raped and pillaged
by the Banksters and politicians.

Slaves, stop fighting, the scenario you have been given
is to control and manipulate you.

Please Wake Up!

This house of cards is about to fall in on your delusional ass.

Natural Order

you forgot one

The "important issues only" slaves are fighting with the "we can discuss whatever issue we want" slaves.

“The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants.” — Albert Camus

Perhaps I misread this, but

Perhaps I misread this, but is it trying to say that if you're one of those who tell other's to quit telling gays what they can and cannot do, that you are being a bigot because you're generalizing "gays?"

Does this mean, that in order to be politically correct, I need to start saying: "Hey fucko, quite telling gays, semi-gays, pseudo gays, partial gays, sometimes gays, not quite yet gays, maybe someday gays, and those not mentioned specifically but partially related to above list gays, what they can and can't do!"

Isn't it just easier to say: "Mind your own @#$%ing business."

Also, how come people on the Daily Paul so often butcher the word "collectivism?" Collectivism doesn't mean that you put related things into groups. Everyone does that, and its an absolute neccessary fundamental of survival as we catagoraize and make sense of our world and our lives. "Collectivism" is a political system that involves group rights and places the government or majority as the originator of rights instead of the individual. It not correct to say that just because you consider everyone who enjoys having sex with those of the same sex to be "gay" means your a collectivist. It means your catagorizing in a general sense things into a group based on commonality. Yes im sure you could get down into the varies sub-species of "gay" or any other orientation, but wouldn't that be a bit tedious for casual convorsation.

In closing: Mind your own @#$%ing business and don't tell other people how to live their lives, or how to tell others to mind their own @#$%ing business. Merry Christmas.

This thread has taught me one thing

This thread and several others as of late has led me to believe the daily paul has been taken over by neocon christain crazies. Have fun I am out. To me this is the Daily Westboro Baptist.

I will continue to vote against your chosen ones such as Mitt Rommney. You can continue to coward behind the bible and use it as a book of hate. It was never to be a book of hate but you have made it so. Yes you have the freedom to spread your hate but you will be called out on it. Feel free to spread your hate here until you are either banned or get sick of trying to spread your hate to the people that know you for what you really are.

Denise B's picture

Or you get arrested and

thrown in jail because the homosexual lobby finally gets their wish in the full implementation of "hate speech" laws, which of course will include the Bible. That's right, that is the end game for many in the homosexual movement, and your comments tell me you are not as far removed from that movement as you like to pretend that you are.

And by the way Camaro, I don't hate you. I'm not out to control your every movement and I especially don't want you thrown in jail. I have a sister who is promiscuous (also a sin by God's standards), and I do my best to help her see too that she is living outside of God's will for her life and that will not bring her happiness or peace (she is very unhappy by the way). I do this not to hurt her, or offend her, but because I love her and I want her to find peace, real peace, the peace that only God's love can ever give us. God doesn't give us laws to harm us, but to help us. And I am not an "open air" preacher who goes out and screams to the world about the sinfulness of homosexuality. I do try to stay out of others business; however, if the topic comes up, or someone asks me, or talks to me about it, I will freely state my beliefs and feel that I should have the right to do that. If it offends you, I'm sorry, but for those of you that are not aware, the First Amendment exists not to protect only what we would deem to be "pleasant" speech, but more importantly what some may consider "unpopular" speech. And if it fails to protect me, believe me when I tell you that ultimately it will fail to protect you too. Peace & Love

Generalize much? I'm not

Generalize much? I'm not gay, don't understand how a grown man would want to sleep with another dude. And that is my right. It's not "hate" to disagree, but it sure as hell is intolerant when you attck me for my opinion. The thought of gay sex freaking grosses me out, just as much as the thought of having sex with an animal. I would never put my Jimmie in another dude or a dog. With that said, I don't care if they get married, and I don't care if polygamy is legal. The government should not tell other adult humans who can and can't enter into contracts.

Now since you love to generalize and use hyperbole....I won't feel bad telling you to go vote for Obama.

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

I went a bit over the top

I am sorry if you think I was trying to group everyone into a single group. There are a few people that go out of their way to be mean and nasty and I fell right into the same mindset with that post.

No offense

but if you really think you're so right maybe you should have stated your opinion in a calm and rational manner instead of being all emotional and running away from it.

I disagree with you. There are very few Christians on here that could be classified as "neocon Mitt Romney voting neocons". It's fine if you disagree on the issue of sexuality but if you're going to go around bashing and spewing lies about them, I really don't think you'll be missed.

"Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle." - Anonymous

Yes, hang around. New people

Yes, hang around. New people come here seeking truth and it's important that reasonable voices counter those who express bigotry and then attempt to hide behind their religion. If the reasonable voices disappear, or are cowered into silence, truth seekers will associate ALL of the ideas expressed here with this conservative Christian ignorance.

If freedom is going to flourish this century our voices must be more numerous than theirs.

I must be willing to give up what I am in order to become what I will be. Albert Einstein

I don't need religion to tell

I don't need religion to tell me that I have no interest gay sex - don't understand they attraction to penisand think its gross but I don't care if people have gay sex - that's their choice. Just don't tell me I'm intolerant because I don't embrace it. Alls you're doing is trying to force your beliefs on others.

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

When did I say you have to

When did I say you have to embrace gay sex? All I'm suggesting is that you don't have to announce publicly on this forum that you believe gays to be sinners. I don't think that quite qualifies as my forcing my beliefs on you.

I must be willing to give up what I am in order to become what I will be. Albert Einstein

Hang around

I do.

(AND I drive a Camaro.)

Ĵīɣȩ Ɖåđşŏń

"Fully half the quotations found on the internet are either mis-attributed, or outright fabrications." - Abraham Lincoln

It's been bugging me this week too

And has every now and then since I started coming here. There's this wretched stench of old-guard, liberty co-opting social conservatism mucking up the site. People that only subscribe the idea of liberty when it's convenient for themselves and not for everyone.

Sorry to hear that. We can't

Sorry to hear that. We can't always get our way all the time. It's important to respect others and accept that they will have minds of their own, that won't always agree with yours. Its part of being mature to accept that.

If you think millions of people are going to throw Christianity in the garbage (even if it was 100% wrong on this issue), merely because of the unpopularity of its sexual teachings, you are going to be sadly disappointed.

It is a comprehensive view of the world, and even if it was not actually true or right all the time, it is still going to prevail and succeed because of the strength and community of its adherents, the faith and courage it provides, and the embrace of life and flourishing it presides over.

It is not nihilistic or a dead end like its opponents. And it is perhaps the only present social and cultural force vital and rich enough to actually oppose the state.

Without its objective basis for the intrinsic value of human individuals, there really is no sound basis for libertarian ideas. You can get by with utilitarianism intellectually, but it has no emotional force, it is abstract and lifeless.

Beyond the 3rd door is nihilism, no values.

Pick your evil.

Divide and Conquer, that is their strategy, right?


kind people rock

Thanks for the down vote inspiration! Arcade Fire "Wake Up"


Somethin’ filled up
my heart with nothin’,
someone told me not to cry.

But now that I’m older,
my heart’s colder,
and I can see that it’s a lie.

Children wake up,
hold your mistake up,
before they turn the summer into dust.

If the children don’t grow up,
our bodies get bigger but our hearts get torn up.
We’re just a million little god’s causin rain storms
Turnin’ every good thing to rust.

I guess we’ll just have to adjust.

With my lighnin’ bolts a glowin’
I can see where I am goin’ to be
when the reaper he reaches and touches my hand.

With my lighnin’ bolts a glowin’
I can see where I am goin’
With my lighnin’ bolts a glowin’
I can see where I am go-goin’

You better look out below!

kind people rock

Just to clarify, since my

Just to clarify, since my wording was poor. When I referred to a politicized, bullying effort to recruit everyone who was not plain vanilla into a lifestyle or label, I was talking about the way in which anyone who isn't plain vanilla straight feels pressured to adopt the gay label, subculture, politics, and even the licentious lifestyle as a matter of being "true" to themselves.

It is the same way ethnic minorities are bullied and denigrated if they don't have group identity and politics. Uncle toms, etc. It is the individual being bullied into a collectivist mindset and run by self serving political elites and cliques that gain from creating division, fear and alienation between groups. They advance themselves politically by doing so.

What gets lost in the mix of that identity politics game is the individuality, humanity and personhood of every individual. People should not feel forced to define their lives and drop all their other beliefs or lifestyle choices in life because their gender identity does not conform to plain vanilla straight. Just because someone is not straight, does not necessarily mean they want to be "gay," like its a package deal fit with all the baggage of political, religious and cultural ideas and behaviors.

And the whole PC enforcement in popular culture that requires us to pretend gays are not people but some one dimensional stereotype, with the gay accent and the fashion and the never ever being bad people... it dehumanizes and de individualizes people forces them to be a group label instead of a full free person.

I don't want any part of that. Have some courage and oppose it. History will not judge this episode proudly.

sorry you are feeling pressured but that happens

everywhere to everyone about just about everything. this is not unique to gay people. You will find this pressure in every group...peer pressure if you will. You will even find it amongst religious groups. It is ultimately up to the individual to present themselves how they want to. I personally have never felt pressured in the way that you are saying is prevalent even though people make all sorts of assumptions about me. 99% of these assumption have been wrong. If someone is pressured into saying they are gay and they aren't...it is up to them to say they aren't....or not even discuss it if they don't want. Let people make whatever assumptions they want!

Heck religious people go door to door bullying people to see their light. sheesh.

People do have to choose to be individuals.

I agree with a great deal of this

Except for the part where you rant about an organized, political attack on poor 'ole vanilla folk. Just who is enforcing a gay lifestyle on you?

Sounds like you are fine with gay folk as long as they don't organize gay pride parades. Well, I don't have a problem with gay pride parades either. They are not barging down your door and parading through your living room, are they?

“The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants.” — Albert Camus

Most of them do not even realize the history behind the parades

They are a tribute to a civil rights movement in 1969 where they police raided a gay bar and the gays fought back. So yeah if you are for freedom do a little research on the stonewall riots and why there are gay pride parades

Well Put Points

You did a good job outlining the various aspects of the whole issue.

I have cousins who are gay and I have known gay/lesbian couples/partners who are good people, live a decent life, and don't go around making the issue more of an issue.

What bothers me is the people who want to throw this whole gay movement in "your face". Or publicly flaunt their sexual preferences or perversions in "your face". It is not necessary and only makes for further anger towards all gays and acceptance of their lifestyle.

What bothers me is the people

who want to throw this whole Christian thing in "your face." Or publicly flaunt their religious preferences or perversions in "your face." It is not necessary and only makes for further anger towards all religious people and acceptance of their strange lifestyle.

“The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants.” — Albert Camus

Is equivalent teaching about

Is equivalent teaching about Christianity pushed on children at taxpayer funded schools? Is christianity taught to children in the propaganda centers the same way homosexuality is?

Are children taught to accept that some people are christians, (and that it is wrong to try to convert them from it or contradict what they believe) the same way they're taught to accept that some people are gay and that it is wrong to contradict what they believe or try to convert them from it?

Is there anything remotely equivalent in the so-called "tolerance" in the schools ed-ucation?

No, there isn't. It is total, one-way propaganda that you and I are forced to support with our tax money. That is evil and anyone who claims it is no different than religious activity among adults is ignorant of what is happening in the schools, is not thinking about this clearly, or is just a shill for the sex addicts.

So which is it Ed?

Which brings us right back to the start

You have said you do not like gays who flaunt their preference so lets ask this. Is it ok for christians to flaunt their lifestyle in the faces of those who do not care for it? Do you think christians pushing acceptence of their lifestyle make non christians angry?

I am just trying to get some sort of understanding if it's ok for one, both, or neither to be able to publicly live how they want to if they are not hurting anyone.

deacon's picture


I,for 1,am sorry for how you get talked to and treated here
You will find the biggest haters on this planet,are them self professed
Chriatians.Every chance they get,they will beat and bash others with that book
of love,and all the wile mean to hate>What is sickening to me is,they will not see that plank in their own eyes,but hey,you got a speck
Theses types of people never knew god,and never will.Love is first and foremost,but they deny this from others from other denominations!!
Dust them off man,some just aren't worth the bother,they certainly aren't mine
Most will praise god on sunday,then deny a brother come monday morning
Remember,them haters might know the word,but their actions tell a different story

If we deny truth before your very eyes,then the rest of what we have to say,is of little consequence