-9 votes

Libertarian Party vs Christian Views

Ok I know there are many topics that we agree on but these seem to be the big 3 that we do not agree on as well as a few others.

Abortion
Gay Marriage
Legalization of Drugs

Why should christian conservatives and libertarians share this site? Lets keep it civil but I would like to know if any of these are deal breakers with either side?



Trending on the Web

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

I don't have an issue here....

And I'm a Christian who also happens to be a Libertarian, notice please the order of things.

Pot, smoked more than I should have, not anymore though.

Gay marriage, God says its unnatural, if you think he's wrong please go talk to him. If you happen to be gay as many in my family as well as friends are, I love you, please don't judge me for me BS and I won't for yours, thanks, but if you are considering going to heaven there are many things WE NEED TO STOP DOING to get in. Note, I said WE.

Abortion, what are the child's rights, who defends the voiceless ? A self centered, self serving mother/ Father who are too lazy, ignorant, or selfish to practice safe sex or abstinence ? it's murder, peroid.

Don't bore me with the consequences of your actions, what did you expect you were doing, making a Packard ?!

This from a sperm donor to too many kids myself, I'm as guilty as any but I never ended the life of someone I was too selfish to love ( then, not now, now I'm there for those kids, young adults now ). but I'd sure hope if I had been party to an abortion that I could find forgiveness, so I try being forgiving before condemning.

Drew, by the very grace of GOD through the blood of Christ Jesus.
"there shall come after us men whom shall garner great wealth using our system, and having done so shall seek to slam the door of prosperity behind them." George Washington

There is no 'vs.'

until someone puts it there.

Cyril's picture

Yup. And at this point, I don't fear to write

Yup.

And at this point, I don't fear to write that it's been, in this country - and for quite a good while now - nothing else but about this:

The US "Government" Vs. The Bill of Rights

or, equivalently:

The US "Government" Vs. The People

...

Or, someone, please wake me up from that bad

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_circuses#Rome

a recurring dream.

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.

http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty

"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

Cyril's picture

Why should christian conservatives& libertarians share this site

"Why should christian conservatives and libertarians share this site?"

My answer is in the form of two other questions:

Why should people - who value the individual first, along with liberty, peace, and prosperity - share the same views or beliefs, on every of the topics that one can put on a list of indeterminate length?

Or, why would any of them feel like it's a problem if they cannot force theirs (views) on all others?

Personally, I can't see any reasonable or useful answer to either of these, which are not very far from the OP's - if not essentially the same slightly rephrased.

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.

http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty

"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

Why Christians and libertarians should share this site?

Why Christians and libertarians should share this site?

Because Christ taught liberty.
My Christian values left me no choice but to embrace libertarianism.
I show Christians all the time that they already are libertarians and just haven't figured it out yet.

Show me a Christian who is not at least already 70% libertarian and I will show you some one who is either not a christian or simply not far enough in their walk with God to know they are.

Our founding fathers were both Christian and libertarian.

Ron Paul who is the name sake of this site is both Christian and libertarian.

Further I would argue there are more Christian libertarians than non Christian libertarians.

So how is this
"Why should christian conservatives and Libertarians share this site?"
even a legitimate question?

"You only live free if your willing to die free."

The solution is simple.

Those issues should be left to the states. There's no reason a case has to be made for any these topics. The people of their resident states should decide how these things should be handled.

Cyril's picture

Yes, and/or even more locally

Yes, and I would venture that many so-called "issues" could be resolved sometimes even more locally, say, at the county-level if there was an actual political will to empower the people locally again, in this 21st century.

Aren't we living in that so called "information age" that so many likes to boast about, to afford quitting once and for all that sort of 19th century-like bureaucratic centralization (*) that the statists are so desperately trying to sustain with always more violence and nonsensical legalese, devised behind TPTB's closed doors that get thicker and thicker?

Darn it.

(*) "Gimme a break."

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.

http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty

"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

As to abortion.

Abortion.. Really?

Christians consider murder a sin.
Libertarians consider murder wrong.
Both agree it should be illegal.

I see no disagreement there.

Both agree even before the sperm reaches the egg it is alive and human material.

Christians believe the self resides within the soul.
So at the point a body possesses a soul it is murder to take it's life without just cause.

The bible is fairly clear at some point in the womb a fetus has a soul.
So far I have yet to see written at EXACTLY what point the fetus is married to the soul and abortion would be murder.

So Christians are not in agreement amongst themselves at what point abortion is murder.

libertarians believe in the non aggression principal.
Which at the point a fetus is a human being it would be murder and should be illegal to take their life without just cause.

But not all libertarians agree at what point a fetus/child becomes a human.

So how exactly is this a libertarian Vs Christian conflict?
This seems more a when does a fetus become a human (possess a soul)question. Of which neither group can claim solidarity of belief.

I am a Christian and quite comfortable with the use of birth control, morning after pills, early abortions in the cases of threat to mothers life, or horrible deformities.

Many Christians and libertarians would disagree with me on my specifics.

So how exactly is this a libertarian Vs Christian conflict?

What both should agree upon is this is a case of definition of murder.
That is in the realm of State not Federal to define and enforce.
If handled the way it should be then we can vote with our feet.

"You only live free if your willing to die free."

Here is your answer.

The word translated soul in the Hebrew is nephesh. This word is also translated as: soul, self, life, creature, person, mind, living being, that which breathes. Those other translations of this Hebrew word should help you understand what we are talking about when we talk about a soul.

There is a biblical formula for what constitutes a soul:

Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

So we have this formula: Dust (Body) + Breath (Spirit) = Soul (Living Being)

The dust of the ground is the material that makes up your body. When we are talking about breath we are talking about oxygen exchange also known as metabolism (The same word translated breath is also translated as spirit). So from this we can deduce that any body that has an active metabolism is a soul (nephesh). So the baby is a soul when it is only one cell large. Notice not "has a soul" but "is a soul".

As to the legalization of gay marriage?

As to the legalization of gay marriage.

To a Christian marriage is between a man a woman and God.

There is no room in a Christian marriage for a 4th party the state.

When Adam took his wife Eve, the first marriage there was no state.

If you find a priest foolish enough to marry your friend Ed and Ted, go ahead. Enjoy your selves. Not my problem.

Just do not expect me as a Bible believer to recognize this union, spend my tax money on it, force me to take pictures at the wedding or bake them a cake.

Where exactly is the problem?

"You only live free if your willing to die free."

SteveMT's picture

"To a Christian marriage is between a man a woman and God."

To a Muslim, marriage can be between a man and up to three women and God. That is their religion. Heterosexuals have made a mockery of marriage. The marriage of Adam and Eve was a forced marriage. Eve (and Adam) was the only game in town at the time. There were clergy "foolish enough" to marry the likes of Ted Kennedy, JFK, RFK, the Clintons, Mickey Rooney, Elizabeth Taylor, etc. The "Holy State of Matrimony" is an oxymoron. You believe that as long as the union is between a man and a woman all is well no matter how debauched are the participants. What you are even more upset about and what has caused your anger in the first place is the intervention by the federal and also the state governments into this union. I agree.

Governments have no business being in marriage. Whether man-woman or same sex couples, the government penalizes these unions by the marriage tax. It sounds like you would find gay marriage acceptable if the government was completely out of any marriage union. How people want to live their lives is up to them. Morality cannot be changed by force, either legislated against or advocated for. Either way is bad. If the government wasn't involved, this would be a non-issue.

As to the "Legalization of Drugs"

As to the "Legalization of Drugs".
I see no conflict.

The definition of Christian is one who follows Christ.
Christ teaches that the bible is the word of God.

No where in the bible does it say drug use in of it self is a sin.
Therefore it is NOT a christian belief that drug use is a sin.
It not being a sin would mean there is no Christian belief it should be illegal.
If a Christian believes drugs should be illegal it is their own personal belief as a person not a Christian, that it should be illegal.
I am a staunch libertarian. I most likely will end up giving my life for liberty before all is said and done. I am also a Christian.
I do not believe any man has a right to tell me what I can and can not do to the temple God created for ME.

So where exactly is the libertarian conflict with Christians on this issue?

"You only live free if your willing to die free."

Libertarianism ...

... starts with the Non-Aggression Principle.

Drug use should be obvious -- smoking a joint does not harm anyone else, though sometimes the smoke might be an irritant to others, in which case it should be up to the owner of the property.

Marriage should also be obvious -- the state has no business other than contract enforcement; it should be the same as when people form a business partnership, where the government does not dictate terms but only provides a court to settle disputes.

Abortion is the one thing (possibly along with immigration) where reasonable people can have different views. The best we can do is to say that Roe vs. Wade was wrong because the federal government has no jurisdiction. It should be up to the states.

For me, the only deal breaker is drug laws. The drug laws, along with the fake terrorism threat, are the prime reason that the federal and state governments have been able to make a push to build a police state. The drug laws have got to go, and I do not consider anyone who advocates in favor of drug prohibition to be a libertarian at all.

I'm not religious, and I am happy to leave theists alone if they will offer the same respect in return. As long as you don't want your religion to be promoted through government, hey, do your thang.

1 of them actually takes Thou

1 of them actually takes Thou Shalt Not Kill to mean something. Hint, it ain't Christians.

The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good things is my religion. Thomas Paine, Godfather of the American Revolution

You are sterotyping and that is always very short sighted.

I'm a very pro-life Roman Catholic Libertarian who doesn't do drugs.

It seems you want to pigeon hole people with someone else's made up labels and definitions.

Your assumptions are worse than faulty and your generalizations poor in judgement.

I think you are stereotyping Christians.

I think your view of what a Christian is, is the stereotypical mainstream republican control freak hateful type. Most atheists are not aware that our bible says that the Christian churches are corrupt. Most "christians", are not really of the spirit and will not be headed to heaven. The bible really couldn't used the word "hypocrite" much more than it does. Anyone that is loved generally by the people around them , and loves the status quo, is on the wrong path in this world.

Revelation 3:9
Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet and they will learn that I have loved you.

John 15:19
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

As far as drugs, I think they should all be decriminalized, they are an excuse to enslave people with a sickness. As far as being Gay, I think there is a pretty good chance God might have something to say about it when they die, but that is between God and them, they are not harming me any, just possibly themselves.

Now abortion. I believe the cornerstone of libertarian ideology is the non-aggression principal. The only way an abortion is not an act or murder (aggression), is if you believe the fetus to have subjective value, to be a parasite rather than a person. In Vietnam they were not people, they were gooks, in Iraq they were not people, they were sand n**gers. In abortion they are not people, they are parasites. If a woman can abort a 4 month old fetus because it is not a person, then if someone punches you pregnant wife in the stomach and causes a miscarriage of a baby you wanted, than they can only be charged with assault, you have already determined a fetus is not a person, therefore no murder can occur.

If one fetus has value and another fetus does not, then you have declared yourself a god that can determine the value of life. If you can determine others to be of higher or lower value, you can support slavery and murder, you are a god in your own mind.

Bump!

As a Christian and a (small "l") libertarian I was going to say exactly the same thing on each of the three issues. Good words, thank you.

"There is only one kind of freedom and that's individual liberty. Our lives come from our creator and our liberty comes from our creator. It has nothing to do with government granting it." -Ron Paul

Good points

Bumped up

well if freedom was at hand

none of these would be issues

Government is supposed to protect our freedom, our property, our privacy, not invade it. Ron Paul 2007

Source of Confusion

The Libertarian Party is made up of liberals, conservatives, libertarians, and many others. Confusion comes when you assume that the Party is only for libertarian personalities. It isn't. It's for libertarian politics.

The party welcomes everyone who is willing to live by our pledge for membership, which is that one does not advocate the intitiation of force. It's just like the Constitutional Convention at the formation of our country, where everyone has different religious viewpoints, speaks different languages, has different values, and wants to defend their right to continue to persue their own happiness. They were liberal, they were conservative, they were rebels.

Society changes over time, and I doubt slavery would be permitted today. With time, the same may be true of abortion, although it's still a more complicated issue. I mean, look at the public support for no-kill animal shelters...

There are plenty of anti-abortion Christians in the LP, who believe that the rights of other people begin at conception, but they generally agree that the State has no right to initiate force on either the mother or what she carries. Abortion is one of the most complicated issues we have, but that's a good reason not to trust it to bureaucrats. Ron Paul was right: as long as the issue is in Congress, it will never be resolved--it will remain a political football. Bringing it back home to the states would make it much easier for this social change (brought about in part by technology such as sonograms and premie care) to happen as society changes its understanding of when life begins.

What do you think? http://consequeries.com/

I Only Clicked to See Why You Mention the Libertarian Party

What does the Libertarian Party have to do with this? The Libertarian Party defends the rights of all Christians so there is no conflict there. It's just strange to put a "vs." between a political party and a viewpoint (which is what?) when that party defends the rights of everyone to have their own viewpoint.

Views are one thing, actions another. The LP is not against any Christian views. Period. The LP defends your right to have them. As a Christian, myself, I don't believe it is Christian to use violence to say, prevent drug use (or to impose it), so I have no conflict there, either.

The only 3 issues where LP party members are divided on which position properly fulfills the central concept of our principles (the non-agression principle), are the 3 life/death issues of abortion, the death penalty, and war. These are the same issues that divide all of society, and for LP'ers, it usually comes down to where to draw the line and who decides.

In abortion, where does life begin and how do you balance the rights of the mother and father? In war, who is starting it? In the death penalty, is it necessary and can you trust the system to get it right? LP members pretty much agree the politicians don't get it right--as, I would think, do most everyone else.

Libertarian Party members run the gamut from gay to straight (and beyond), and from conservative to liberal, and from religious to skeptical and beyond. It's silly to assume we all agree on what we believe, except for that central principle of non-agression toward others (which Ron Paul compared to "The Golden Rule" in the campaign).

Conservative Christian libertarians usually agree that they prefer their church to set marriage standards, rather than politicians. Liberal Christian libertarians may want gays to have the same joy that monogamy brings. Everybody is different in the LP, except we agree that using government mandates and threats of violence to force people to change is wrong.

What do you think? http://consequeries.com/

As a Christian I do not judge others.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that who so ever believeth in him shall not perish, but have ever lasting life.
PERIOD.

I haven't found where it states: unless one is gay, unless one has an abortion, unless one ingests a plant.

It does not state that whosoever believes in this one of 41,000 organized Christian groups shall go to heaven. No where in my bible does it state that I am to judge others and lobby against them.

What score does God give for the following sins?:
Abortion
Gay Marriage
Legalization of Drugs

Lets say they are all 9's with murder being a 10, where in the bible is this reference for giving value to each? I understand that a sin is a sin, and God forgives all sin, and it occurs to me that it is the humans that do not. It is the humans that decide their cursing is only a 2, their theft only a 4, their infidelity a 5, yet have the audacity to judge others.

These faults are not of God, but of man who takes the role of God when they judge others and condemn them. While it is necessary to remove those that would harm others from society, others who cause no harm should not be held to account by the state, nor judged by the Christian community.

Laws today are based on human moral code, not by the bible, for it was Christ himself that coveted the prostitute, and said that he that is free from sin cast the first stone, yet today Christians choose to ignore this. They have placed themselves higher than God in some instances, and this is what turns myself and many others against organized religion.

Hypocrisy is not a favored factor for many when looking to join a group, but there are many that are simply looking to join just to be in a group, but never shall a true thinker allow themselves to be a part of something so twisted as organized controlled/religion.

These are the opinions of a thinking Christian, a person who does not involve himself with organized religions, but who can take the guide book, read, and understand what is being said. Someone who has not been appointed by God to judge others, to hold others to account, rather I choose to love everyone, to see and feel the glory of God in what they do, and most of all to follow the bible and not my human instincts, animal in nature, to go against the very clear words of the bible and God himself.

I accept atheists and love them as a brother. I love the Muslim brother, the Agnostic, the Catholic, the Pegan, I do not judge them for their beliefs, but rather love them as fellow humans. This is what my bible, my God, and my Church demand of me, and this is why I would not step inside a sanctuary that does not share these teachings my bible has given to me.

In this I find Christ, I find solitude, and I find Liberty, and though these are only my opinions I beg you to feel free to make them your own.

Always remember:
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." ~ Samuel Adams
If they hate us for our freedom, they must LOVE us now....

Stay IRATE, remain TIRELESS, an

If MURDER is a 10, then...

Hmmmm...I read with some interest the different comments on this thread, and came to yours in particular. Let me say that from my standpoint, if we are going to grade "Abortion" - "Gay Marriage" and finally "Legalization of Drugs" I would for starters put "Abortion" as number ONE!

And since I would place "Legalization of Drugs" as number 3, it leaves "Gay Marriage" in between as number 2. That is in my opinion not me judging anything or anyone, but simply me sort of prioritizing the three from most important to less important, - in my view.

As for ABORTION, - to me this is a simple one, - it is simply the same as murder! And since you write.."Lets say they are all 9's with murder being a 10" I would of course have to disagree. So in terms of answering to the main question of this thread. ABORTION would be the "deal breaker" for sure!

However, not any of what I say above is me JUDGING anyone, that is up to God, - but I did express my humble opinion and feel pretty sure God would agree with my point of view, including placing ABORTION at the same level as MURDER.

But, - according to the Bible, all sins are equal, - and in my opinion (again) GAY Marriage is a sin, and a clear long-term threat to the FOUNDATION of our society. While "Legalization of Drugs" really should not be on the list in the first place. In my opinion.

Thank you!

ChristianAnarchist's picture

Amen brother !!

Amen brother !!

Beware the cult of "government"...

As a Christian...

A baby is not a tumor. Abortion is murder. Therefore, it is a matter of the State.

The State should not be issuing marriage licenses in the first place. Therefore, the gays should be able to start their own churches based on whatever religion and marry themselves. It should be a non issue. The marriage laws were not created to exclude gays. They were a way to generate revenue and stop men from marrying more than one woman. No one anticipated that men would actually want to marry one another.

Drugs should be legal. As long as you don't harm anyone while inebriated.

I don't see the conflict.

How dare you suggest we shouldn't share this site. Ron Paul, Lew Rockwell and most prominent libertarians are ALL Christians, so go pound sand!

For the record... This post is intentionally divisive and created by a non-Christian.

Your

last word says it all.

NOSHEEPLE

I've identified Libertarian for about 15 years...

I've identified as a Christian for about 8-9 years, and the only area where the Libertarian Party has been at odds with my views is on the abortion question. I don't particularly care if homosexuals share a household and are given every medical or tax benefit that any other joint filing group requests, though I'd prefer it if nobody received any perverse government incentives that involve economic behavior modification.

The drug issue is not a sticking point for anyone who understands the historic rule of faith of the church (granted, this excludes a good chunk of the American bible belt at present). Utilizing alcohol or various natural or artificial drugs for medicinal purposes or moderated recreation isn't considered a moral infraction anywhere in the OT or NT, though abusing and overusing them is as it tends to lead to other problems that most rational people would consider moral infractions that can and often do harm others, but there is no specific requirement for punishing any kind of drug abuse through force of the state unless it rises to an outward breaking of enforceable laws.

It gets a bit complicated, but I think many so-called Christian Conservatives could learn a thing or two about how self-governance can and does extend into non-economic behaviors, whereas many anti-theist libertarians would do well to occasionally shut up and listen to their opponents before congratulating themselves on how much smarter they are (which in most cases, they aren't), unless they wish to remain an fringe 3rd party that only occasionally wins local and a handful of state offices while being nowhere near viable federally.

“My attitude toward progress has passed from antagonism to boredom. I have long ceased to argue with people who prefer Thursday to Wednesday because it is Thursday.” - G.K. Chesterton

The term" libertarian"has become very popular

Ive noticed that alot of old conservetives like Hanity, Beck and the other usual suspects are trying to hijack the "libertarian"movement by calling themselves libertarians. This is exactly what happened to the T-party it started out as a good movement but then got hijacked by these frauds. And the same thing is happening on this site ,there is alot of so called "libertarians " {no names mentioned} that are in actuality social conservatives. Nothing wrong with that except the you should know the difference.

Some of them genuinely became libertarian

You made your point, some of them however like Glenn Beck genuinely became libertarian. They shouldn't be agreed with on most issues, you're right, yet whoever wishes to be a libertarian and live the code it requires can be welcome to it.

Thomas Woods said there is no exclusionary tent on libertarian thought. There are those who are pure bred and those still coming around, what all can agree on however is...there is no need to force everyone else what to believe or do.

There is thus no real need to use the force of the state, except in extreme cases.

Just because you call yourself "Libertarian"

Doesnt mean that you are. Did Glenn Beck ever support Ron Paul's presidential campaign? Nope, neither time.