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Libertarian Party vs Christian Views

Ok I know there are many topics that we agree on but these seem to be the big 3 that we do not agree on as well as a few others.

Abortion
Gay Marriage
Legalization of Drugs

Why should christian conservatives and libertarians share this site? Lets keep it civil but I would like to know if any of these are deal breakers with either side?



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Wow.

Sam has a funny way of putting it, but he does quote Tom Woods.
Sam, I give you a thumbs up and wish you the best. You seem to have a grip on Libertarian (the highest) thought.

We have to understand that the freedom

of the individual trumps government oppression and control.

Think we can all agree on that!

.

Obedience to God is resistance to tyrants.

Yes, the majority of the people will, given the opportunity

I doubt the two parties will, the more individual freedoms, the less the dependence on government control. laws and regulations. I have come to the understanding that neither party is interested in reducing the size of government, they are only interested in wrenching power from the opposing party.

Amen!

.

Freedom is the ability to do what you want to do.
Liberty is the ability to do what you ought to do.
"Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." 2 Corinthians 3:17

Why should folks who disagree

Why should folks who disagree about timely, important issues share a discussion site?

For me, the discussions of these issues are often more interesting here among people who disagree but share at least an interest in libertarian political philosophy. Too often the the various camps on these issues just throw rocks at each other. (It's wrong. It's my right! God said it; that settles it.) While there's plenty of that here, there's also plenty more -- more nuanced, and searching, and logical argument building. I really appreciate that. And truthfully, I don't think either government decree or government license is going to make a more moral people of us all. But this...open discussion, dissent, idea-building, understanding-building...well, it kind of can, in a round about way.

God valued human choice and moral culpability so much that he made sure we'd fall into it on Creation Day Plus One (or soon thereafter). It seems to me that how we contend with the moral issues of our day is more important to God than being sinless. At least that's one of the big take aways from the Fall story for me. Among all the ways we humans attempt to exercise our moral responsibility, caring about, and discussing, and disagreeing with other people who lean into the wind of liberty has got to be one that makes God smile.

+1

very good post, thanks for sharing

PEOPLE OPPOSING TYRANNY - Real Grass Roots!
Are you a POT or a PET - Person Embracing Tyranny?

I C no conflict

Only my God comes before my liberty.
It is God who gave us liberty. He is the one that puts the flame in our heart that must burn free.
How are my Christian opinions anti liberty?

Abortion = It is murder at some point. The states deal with murder not the Fed. Let each state decide for it self. Then vote with your feet.

Gay Marriage = The state has no business in a marriage contract.
It is between husband, wife, and God. If you can find a priest to marry you to a goat, go ahead. Just do not expect me to accept it as marriage. Why should you care what my opinion is if I do not force you to comply with it?

Legalization of Drugs = For it. What man has a right to tell me what I can or can not put in my body?
I chose not to use, but it is my choice, not the States.

I would argue true Christians would find it hard not to embrace libertarianism if some one sat down and explained the values behind the stance.

Surely you don't see Jesus as a Democrat or a Republican do you O.O!!?

Ron Paul is a staunch Christian is he not?
Well I'd say hes pretty libertarian too wouldn't you?

"You only live free if your willing to die free."

OZZ bless your heart

Because of your post I do not have to write some lengthy post now. I can just agree with you because your a beautiful person. I want to live in a land were Christians and atheist can agree on limited government so we can have the right to fight like mad dogs about God. When this happens then you know you are truly free.

vs?

Sounds like someone is trying to divide. Down vote this out of existence.

*sigh*

:\

.
~wobbles but doesn't fall down~

Yup.

Yup.

SteveMT's picture

Jesus knew that no one could follow the Ten Commandments.

That's why He digested them down to just two commandments: Love God and love your neighbor as you would yourself. These 'big three' aren't mentioned by Jesus as essential for either salvation or redemption.
Doing those two things are the essentials according to Jesus. That's all that you need to do. The rest is window dressing. In other words, everything else is non-essential. Jesus knew that governments cannot legislate morality; morality comes from within, not from without.
According to Jesus' own words, where is this disagreement with libertarians?

When will Christians

When will Christians "interpret" Thou Shalt Not Kill as Thou Shalt Not Kill?

The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good things is my religion. Thomas Paine, Godfather of the American Revolution

How about start with the FIRST commandment?

Thou shall have NO other gods before me!

And it means exactly what it says, no other gods!

SteveMT's picture

Isn't Almighty God & the God of Truth one-in-the-same?

If someone is in search of the truth, then they are also in search of God. God = Truth

Uh...

It's... "Thou shall not murder". Not "thou shall not kill".

"There is time for everything under the sun. ...A time to kill..."

PEOPLE OPPOSING TYRANNY - Real Grass Roots!
Are you a POT or a PET - Person Embracing Tyranny?

I would very much appreciate hearing how you might substantiate

[It's... "Thou shall not murder". Not "thou shall not kill".]

I would very much appreciate hearing how you might substantiate this claim.

- AMAZING PHOTO delineating where UNRESTRAINED CAPITALISM has taken us: http://www.rense.com/general96/whatare.html
- "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated."-- Mohandas Gandhi

No problem... Hebrew word 'to murder', different than 'to kill'

The Hebrew word used ('ratsah') is the word meaning "to murder", not the word which means "to kill" ('harag'), other words.

'Ratsah', translating to 'to murder', is the word used in the Torah in the 10 Commandments..
'Nikah' or 'Nekah', generally meaning 'to kill' (in the context of being other than warfare) is in the Torah/Bible, but not in the 10 Commandments.
'Harag' is also a word for killing, a probably would be murder as well, as this was the word used to describe Cain's killing of Abel, but was not the word used in 10 Commandments.

It's pretty simple to understand. But translating any language, especially an ancient one, is complicated and precise translations are not always possible. It is clear though, based on the fact that there are multiple words for different types of 'killing' in Hebrew, much like we have in English, that a term different than just 'to kill' but one that implies a true guilt, i.e.- 'to murder' was specifically chosen.

Here, even Wikipedia can't screw this one up that badly...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_shall_not_murder

But here is a better source...

http://people.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/Shokel/001102_ThouShaltNo...

The concept seems to be pretty obvious; Killing is Wrong, so Never do it unless it's absolutely necessary to prevent yourself and/or a fellow innocent from direct physical danger. This notion is repeatedly backed up throughout the Bible.

PEOPLE OPPOSING TYRANNY - Real Grass Roots!
Are you a POT or a PET - Person Embracing Tyranny?

Thank You - Very Interesting

You and Wiki are more or less in agreement that the Hebrew word used in Exodus 20:13 is "ratzákh", which according to Wiki can mean either kill or murder.

However, I'm not sure why when I looked up the same verse in the following on-line Hebrew Interlinear Bible:

- http://scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm

it says the Hebrew word is "thrtzch".

Anyway, Isaiah 66:3 KJV says "He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man"

So it seems possible it may be better to translate "ratzákh" in Exodus 20:13 as kill instead of murder, as apparently it applies to animals as well. I go into more detail on this topic in my article "Amazing Little Known Facts - Proving How You Have Been Kept In The Dark":

- http://www.dailypaul.com/241312/sowing-the-seeds-for-a-peace...

- AMAZING PHOTO delineating where UNRESTRAINED CAPITALISM has taken us: http://www.rense.com/general96/whatare.html
- "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated."-- Mohandas Gandhi

Many Christians wish to end war on drugs, support gay marriage

The OP is misinformed. Re-jig the title and quit assuming/labeling and I'll upvote.

I disagree

As a Christian you cannot support gay marriage because homosexuality is a sin in the Bible and an abomination to God.

Leviticus 18:22
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

However, we are to be loving to all and what is ones sin compared to another? It's all an offense to God. I may not be gay, but my sins are no better. Jesus came to minister and die for sinners and all have sinned.

We are to hate sin like God does, but love the sinner. That is the difference and why we cannot support gay marriage.

Isaiah 2:4
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

SteveMT's picture

That is the Old Testament.

An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. That's the Old Testament.

The New Testament say loves your enemies, and forgive your brother 70 times seven times, and he who is without guilt, let him cast the first stone, and judge not that ye be not judged, and with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

The old Testament and the New Testament is like night and day. Why are you stuck in the Old Testament?

New Testament says the same

Romans 1:27

And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one towards another, men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.

About God's wrath:

Romans 1:18-32

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Isaiah 2:4
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

SteveMT's picture

My verses were spoken by Jesus Himself!

You want to play these word games, o.k., let's play. My quoted verses were spoken by Jesus Himself. You can argue with Him, not me. Don't lay these verses on me to justify your hatred of gays and simply disregard Jesus' own words. Hypocrite! Your verses were written after the fact. They are not direct words from God. Rethink what you are saying.

Paraphrasing Jesus:

Fix yourself before you start trying to fix anything or anybody else. The hypocrites who attack others for their faults will be dealt with even more severely than the supposed sinners being attacked. Stop the pretense of being holier-than-thou when all of you fall short of the Glory of God. No one is better or worse than anybody else. No one is getting into heaven who attacks others using memorized Bible verses and their supposed knowledge about the Almighty. Anyone who wasted their time memorizing the Bible is going to hell because they didn't believe me when I said that all that is necessary for salvation is that you love God and love your neighbor as yourself.

OT is God's Word too

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

"Fix yourself before you start trying to fix anything or anybody else."

Pluck the beam out of your own eye first. Your argument sounds very childish. All I did was quote God's Word. You are not arguing against me but against God.

Also, I don't hate gays. You need to stop judging others before you know them. I have gay friends that I love very much. Jesus came to save the sinner, but not the 'sinless.' You obviously didn't read everything I posted the first time. I said to be loving to all. The sin of homosexuality is no worse than my own sins.

All have sinned and need repentance. If you don't accept that you cannot claim to be anything Christian. Hate the sin - love the sinner as God does. God hates ALL sin. It is all an abomination to him because He is perfectly holy. But He loves us so much that He sent His only son to die for our sins to save us and reconcile us to Himself.

Isaiah 2:4
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

SteveMT's picture

Your calling me childish is, by Jesus' standards, a complement.

You made my day with that comment. However, you don't know your Bible very well. If you did, you would have known that calling me "childish" is in Biblical terms actually a big complement. Thank you, friend. I believe that the Bible should be understood with the simplicity of a child as stated by Jesus.
Matthew 19:14
But Jesus said, "Let the children come to me. Don't stop them! For the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to those who are like these children."

Believe those words from Jesus. Start thinking the same way, not as you currently are doing. You have totally disregarded Jesus' own words. Fine. You call me childish for calling you on your attempt to trump the words spoken by Jesus. You are in denial. "But He loves us so much that He sent His only son to die for our sins to save us and reconcile us to Himself," so we had better listen to what Jesus had to say, correct? So start listening, friend. Get yourself a red letter edition of the Bible. Jesus' words are in red for a reason. Hint: They are more important than the other words for those words come directly from God, if you believe that Jesus is the son of God. There were no intermediaries involved, i.e. so-called "inspired" men who spoke in the name of God. Jesus was not inspired. He is God, so start believing Him. Do it fast.

Your pride comes before your fall

You quoted back a lot of things I said to you. Did you not read my comment before replying?

This describes you because you are a defender of sin - in this case the sin of homosexuality. Hate the sin - love the sinner as Christ does. Examine yourself.

Jude 1:4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

John 8:43-47
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Isaiah 2:4
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

SteveMT's picture

You are defending your own hypocrisy.

You attack me by calling me childish, apparently not knowing this very important Bible verse spoken by Jesus Himself. I call you on it, then you attack me again. Great. How about getting the beam out of your eye so that you can see what I'm telling you. I'm using the words of Almighty God's son quoted in the Bible to defend the truth. Wow, you demote words spoken by God Himself and elevate the words of those merely "inspired" by God. This is news to me. The words of God trump the words of others. Would you rather listen to Moses saying "have ye saved the women alive" or Solomon speaking while in the midst of his 1,000 debaucheries, OR would you rather listen to Jesus give the Sermon on the Mount? Hint: This is a no-brainer.

I judge you

because of your arrogance and pride that is clearly seething through your replies. You have such a completely unchristian attitude. There is no way you can defend yourself against my judgment against you and your pro-homosexuality attitude. I am on the side of God's Word. We are to be loving to sinners but not accept sin. Examine yourself and YOUR hypocrisy. God loves you - give your life to Christ. I am done with this conversation. There is no sense talking to someone as blind and hateful as you. You are blocked.

Isaiah 2:4
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.