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Libertarian Party vs Christian Views

Ok I know there are many topics that we agree on but these seem to be the big 3 that we do not agree on as well as a few others.

Abortion
Gay Marriage
Legalization of Drugs

Why should christian conservatives and libertarians share this site? Lets keep it civil but I would like to know if any of these are deal breakers with either side?

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SteveMT's picture

My "arrogance and pride?" What are you talking about?

Surprise, I am neither pro- nor anti-gay nor am I judging anyone, especially you. However, you are clearly judging me by your hostile comments. You are the one that seems very sure of yourself to the point of arrogance and pride. I am actually quite meek the great majority of the time like Jesus, but like Him I can also be aroused to defend a position. My position is that God is good, merciful, logical, consistent, and truthful, not some of the time, but all of the time. BTW, I thought that judging someone as you just did me was a no-no? The more that I point-out some of your inconsistencies, the more you seem to attack me, so I will let this go also. I don't wish to make you angry. I hope some of this anger of yours will be transformed into believing Jesus's own words more so than the words of others. Peace.

Jesus was 'stuck' in the Old Testament

since he quoted from 24 different Old Testament books. 2 samples below:
John 5
46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But if you do not believe what he wrote, how will you believe what I say?”

Mark 7
5 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with defiled hands?”

6 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:

“‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’[b]

8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”

9 And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[c] your own traditions! 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’[d] and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’[e] 11 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— 12 then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

That's what the Pharisees thought and said too

However he was just part of their New Testament. His approach was radically different and even disarming. All else written at the time was outdated.

This is why the Pharisees of today use the same old arguments to pillage him, have a look at what Paul Krugman does for just one example. All of his seething remarks about Christ etc, come from the exact same playbook as the scribes and pharisees used quoted above.

SteveMT's picture

The Old Testament was all that there was at the time of Jesus.

There was no New Testament at the time of Jesus. It was yet to be written, so of course Jesus was stuck on the Old Testament. However, He did not preach an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. His preaching was radically new, like those verses I quoted above. He modified the old ways into the new ways. That's what I'm pointing out.

Paraphrasing Jesus:

Fix yourself before you start trying to fix anything or anybody else. The hypocrites who attack others for their faults will be dealt with even more severely than the supposed sinners being attacked. Stop the pretense of being holier-than-thou when all of you fall short of the Glory of God. No one is better or worse than anybody else. No one is getting into heaven who attacks others using memorized Bible verses and their supposed knowledge about the Almighty. Anyone who wasted their time memorizing the Bible is going to hell because they didn't believe me when I said that all that is necessary for salvation is that you love God and love your neighbor as yourself.

AMEN!!!

Thanks Rev. Steve, best sermon I ever heard.

You know that you are on the wrong track when you say..

"As a Christian you cannot ....." Who are you to tell me that I am not a Christian simply because I don't share your exact views? Sounds to me like you are more into religion, legalism, and denominations than you are with actually living to be Christ like. Very sad.

I personally don't believe 'marriage' is a government institution, and I fully support anyone who wants to be married. If you are dependent on the government to legitimize your marriage, then you are already worshiping the Beast. Let God recognize what God wishes to recognize, and judge what He wishes to judge. You don't make the rules, or laws that decide the eternity of a single man, not even yourself.

I agree that

marriage should not be government regulated. But even if homosexuals marry its not true marriage recognized by God. Homosexuality is sin; though my sin is no worse. It is a stance that the so-called 'christian' church is slipping on big time today. The Bible is clear that the same sex lying together is sin. It's mentioned several times.

Romans 1:27

And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one towards another, men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.

2 Timothy 3:1-7

1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Isaiah 2:4
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

I am a Christian and I agree

Christians are losing the debate on marriage because of their stiff necks. The Israelite's had the same problem. What Christian's are doing is fighting for their right to keep their monopoly on a non-biblical Government subsidized state sanctioned form of marriage. In doing so they will not only lose the battle they will lose the war. The battle being waged is that this new group (sinners) entry into the monopoly will shrink the pot for those already in the non-biblical system of marriage that is already in place. The war should be to keep marriage between a man and a woman a biblical concept. While the churches attention is being diverted towards the battle (by the leaders of the churches non the less). The war is being hidden and lost. All that should matter to the church should be when a man and a woman choose to be united it is called marriage. What sinners do and what they name it really shouldn't be a problem with the church. Some churches have banquettes (some call a big dinner communion) while sinners call them parties. I don't see the church fighting battles over sinner parties but they do teach their children (war) against their children going to parties. (when I say parties I'm talking about parties where sin is taking place. I'm not looking to get into debates over good our bad parties either. I think you get what I'm saying.) Also neither side of this subject, gay or straight, really care anything about single people who have to pay into the subsidies with no way of drawing out the money they pay into it. so really both groups are tyrants in the single mans eyes.

Christians aren't losing.

The Lord knows this world will be completely corrupt before He returns. This is all meant to happen. Christians aren't losing because we have Christ and He has already won the victory. In this world we will face hardship and many troubles and be persecuted for Christ. I think by saying 'losing' you are just conveying your feelings about how Christians are persecuted for their views. Homosexuality/gay marriage is wrong and sinnful; though, my sins are no worse. Hate the sin-love the sinner.

Isaiah 2:4
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

No one is asking you to support gay marriage

There is a difference between supporting something and not being willing to use coercion to prevent them.

I'm sure you disapprove of many things. What makes you think it's appropriate to use government guns to stop them? And if you think it's ok what is the criteria? Understand that not asking that question, but demanding the power to do so, will be used against you.

Once you approve the government power, it will always be used against you. How could this truth be lost on you?

I don't claim to

completely understand everything you mentioned about government guns. The topic in the comment that I replied to was about gay marriage not guns as far as I'm aware.

Isaiah 2:4
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Many Christians disagree with that, depends on interpretation

I will grant the op that 99% of Christians are against abortion, but can't say the same thing about gay marriage or the war on drugs.

My personal opinion is that the state has no business calling anything a 'marriage' since 'marriage' is a religious term.

Any 'marriage' conducted by the state should be called a 'civil union' which is exactly what it is.

If 'gay marriage' was called 'gay civil unions' and restricted to such a designation, I would have no problem with it from a Libertarian perspective.

I don't much care for the idea of gay marriage from a moral standpoint, but I also believe in the separation of church and state so my first opinion doesn't mean squat since my second opinion renders it moot.

My personal sense of Liberty is an evolving mass, so my opinion does change if I find a compelling argument. Merely quoting the Shas, Christian Bible or Koran would not sway me particularly since in my opinion religious arguments cannot be won or lost so such arguments are moot.

I am still adapting and changing my ideas based on the excellent arguments presented by intelligent DPers of course! (I read much more than I post)

I have a few questions for Christians...

1) What should the penalty be for abortion? Let's imagine the federal government has made it illegal and a teenage girl becomes pregnant. She performs her own abortion. What should happen to her?

2) If marijuana is such the devil's weed, then alcohol is certainly the devil's brew. Do you agree that alcohol should be illegal?

3) If gays started their own religion and based it on something other than the Bible, should they have the right to practice their own religion permitting gay marriage?

4) In reading the Old Testament where you find verses that mention "mankind shall not lay with mankind", there are many other versus that dictate foods we should not eat, how to treat slaves, what is unclean fabric vs. clean, yet, those edicts are pretty much ignored by many Christians. Why? Why are some valid today and others not?

5) Are you willing to take the life of someone or their freedom who disobeys any of God's law or only certain ones that may harm someone else or their property?

My point here is that many that claim they're Christian break God's laws daily by cherry-picking the Old Testament.

Why can't we agree Jesus died for all of our sins and according to the Bible, the penalty for sin, any sin, all sin, is death?

So, instead of using government to condemn others by taking their freedom or life for not following certain Biblical versus while ignoring others, why can't we just make laws that protect us from one another?

Lastly, can someone please direct me to the verse or versus in the Bible that say when life begins? If it isn't definitively stated, what man has the moral authority to speak for God?

I don't mind being down-voted but please answer the questions if you're going to do so.

I will answer your questions...

but in a more logical order, starting with your last point.

First of all, the label "Christian" is claimed by so many groups, it cannot be accurately defined by any one person in the mind of everyone. Also, atheists have the habit of attributing the characteristics of the weakest link that bears the label "Christian" to all other Christians, thus adding confusion and division (real champions of self-government!).

"2) If marijuana is such the devil's weed, then alcohol is certainly the devil's brew. Do you agree that alcohol should be illegal?"

Marijuana is no more the devil's weed than tobacco is. How it is used shows ones wisdom or foolishness. Thomas Jefferson and George Washington both grew cannabis, but I don't think they smoked it. The devil is constantly trying to get people to use God's creations in a foolish manner instead of the wise manner for which He created it. The Swiss family Robinson used tobacco smoke to tame wild animals. Nothing God created should be illegal. Only the harm you do to people, their property or their liberty should be illegal.

"3) If gays started their own religion and based it on something other than the Bible, should they have the right to practice their own religion permitting gay marriage?"

Certainly, but only if they made a definite claim to a religion and had a book as the source of their religion to which they could be held accountable. Then there would be an even playing field. Right now they are able to sue and otherwise persecute Christians and others who do not support their agenda and lifestyle in some areas of society. Also, then we would see how "popular" it really is. And the statistics would be more accurately measurable. But if in their pursuit to marry, they abuse someone, they should be treated as any other sexual abuser.

"1) What should the penalty be for abortion? Let's imagine the federal government has made it illegal and a teenage girl becomes pregnant. She performs her own abortion. What should happen to her?"

There would be no penalty against the woman if government was not involved. There would only be shame. Since doctors take the hippocratic oath, and when they perform an abortion they violate that oath by harming a child in the womb, they should receive the death penalty. That would put the responsibility back where it belongs - on the woman. People would think longer and harder about the consequences of their actions (and lifestyle) if they were totally responsible. Many women who have had abortions regret it. In fact, the Roe in Roe v Wade has been very public in her renunciation of her action that led to the infamous Supreme Court decision. So the teen girl in your hypothetical question would have nothing happen to her except the natural consequences of guilt (if any) and shame (if any) among her peers. That's it. Live and let live, with regets or without them - your choice. The moral standards of the community you live in will determine how much shame you bear. If you do not like it, move.

"5) Are you willing to take the life of someone or their freedom who disobeys any of God's law or only certain ones that may harm someone else or their property?"

It's important to keep the proper perspective by remembering the setting during which God gave the ten commandments and the following dozens of commandments that you refer to in question #4.

God gave the commandments to a nation of people over which He was ruling and to whom He spoke through Moses and later Joshua. As long as God was over Israel, and they obeyed Him, they would prosper. Milleniums later, after Israel had clearly rebelled against God and other empires had risen to power and fallen, God sent His Son, Jesus, to pay for all our sins and set up something new - local churches to preach the gospel to every creature and to practice a new commandment amongst the believers who join themselves to any of these churches. This new commandment is to love one another. Jesus came not to judge the world , but to save it (all of us individually), by paying the price we all owe (eternal death, see Psalm 16:8-10 and Acts 2:22-32). Those who believe congregate in churches and practice the new commandment, learn to forgive each others trespasses, etc.

However, Satan began to infiltrate those churches and the fundamentalists would separate and start a new one, in the meantime the liberals (the ones who gave up godly doctrines) maintained the image of the church with the buildings and made them more impressive to look legitimate and added traditions that were not in the Bible to make it more appealing (and controlling) to a greater number of people, including pagans.

This conglomerate group of corrupted churches unionized under one chief bishop (in Rome) and began to exercise religious and temporal power and soon ruled the civilized world, all in the name of "Christianity". This lead to great persecution of those who did not abide by their creed. Some of the persecuted eventually migrated to America, where eventually a government limited by a Constitution was established. Under the Constitutions both at the federal level and at the state level, punishments for crimes were estalished, but along with it was the provision for a trial by jury, so the people could be the ultimate deciders of the fate of those who commit crimes. They would have the power to nullify any law. Also, the President and governors of each state would have the power to pardon anyone. This created two remedies for injustice. So to answer your question, I would not be willing to take the life of anyone unless they were threatening my life or the life of someone else, or were committing some other capital crime such as rape. Yea, I would have no problem killing a rapist if I caught him red-handed or red-peckered! But, I would rather the people make that decision after a fair trial, lest I misjudge the guilt of someone who looked like they did it, but didn't. All laws should be based on protecting the lives, property and rights of We the People.

"4) In reading the Old Testament where you find verses that mention "mankind shall not lay with mankind", there are many other versus that dictate foods we should not eat, how to treat slaves, what is unclean fabric vs. clean, yet, those edicts are pretty much ignored by many Christians. Why? Why are some valid today and others not?"

Good question. God gave many laws to "help" the children of Israel, keep them safer, freer, healthier, etc. But the laws that deal with natural law (how God made things, such as males and females) and the rights of people to live, move about, earn a living, etc. still stand.

While all the laws were good, some cannot be justly administered in a society not governed by God Himself. Hence the principle, it is better to let a hundred guilty men go free than one innocent man punished.

Since everyone "cherry-picks" to some degree, there will be no perfect government until Jesus comes again and sets up His kingdom. When He does, He will rule with a rod of iron. That does not mean as many mistakenly believe that He will be mean and brutal. It means that the rod (the measuring stick by which people will be judged) will not bend or be shortened or lengthened by whim, but will be fair, well-known and reliable.
Even so, come, Lord Jesus!

Hope this satisfies you somewhat, though I'm sure it will give rise to other questions, especially given that I could not bring myself to take any more space than I already have. The answers most certainly take up more space than the questions!

Freedom is the ability to do what you want to do.
Liberty is the ability to do what you ought to do.
"Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." 2 Corinthians 3:17

SteveMT's picture

Selective Christianity is like selective Constitutionalism.

Selectively overlook the 1,000 debaucheries of Solomon while he wrote many of the most beautiful Psalms and the book of Ecclesiastes, from which the song Turn, Turn, Turn was taken. No wonder Solomon wrote such prose. He was having a good time in the midst of all of this carnal activity. Selectively overlook the saving of 32,000 virgins for the Hebrew soldiers while putting everyone else to death. I've never heard either of these Bible stories preached in any church.

I've heard

sermons about Solomon's debaucheries. Basically, even the wisest man can fall to deep corruption when you take your eyes off of Lord. It's hard to think that there is anything actually edifying about those topics to be able to preach on them. However, I'm sure those topics have been preached on many times before.

Isaiah 2:4
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Surely someone in your life has told you

that when you 'ASSuME', you make an ass our of u, not me. You should ask true and honest questions without interjecting your very misinformed views into the question. It definitely makes you come across as someone simply causing problems.

I asked questions. Where did I say I assumed....

anything? You just assumed that I assumed.

"You should ask true and honest questions without interjecting your very misinformed views into the question. It definitely makes you come across as someone simply causing problems."

Yeah, the Pharisees said the same thing to Jesus.

I don't promise all my answers are 100% Biblical

but I will try to answer from the Biblical perspective.

First, many of your questions are based on wrongful assumptions. In the New Testament era, the era of the Gentiles, the era of the Church, God did not ask Christians to establish any civil authority on earth. His kingdom is not of this earth. Now, if you are IN His kingdom and under His authority, then there are things that the Church and the leaders of the church have authority to address.

If you go through the Books of Timothy and Titus, it spells out very clearly how the church fathers, elders pastors should deal with issues in the church. So with this understanding, let's see go through your questions.

1. In a church, if someone sins, the leaders should always try to bring them back to repentance and a correct relationship with God. Abortion is definitely murder. It is a premeditated killing of another human being, another life. But God can forgive murder, so the girl who committed abortion can still be restored to a right relationship with God. As for civil punishments, that is the jurisdiction of civil government, it should not concern the church. Now you would say, then why are you against abortion in the political arena? Well, we are against abortion, because it's murder, we are against it, because it is legal now. However, as to the exact punishment, I don't think Christians are concerned with that. The civil government can decide the punishment if abortion is made illegal. The church has the obligation to speak out against evil, but not to "punish" evil.

2. The Bible says that our bodies (believers) are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Therefore we do not trash our bodies either with marijuana or alcohol. Wine is a mocker, the Old Testament said. The Bible did not make it a law NOT to drink wine, but rather, it is the principle that was set down is that we need to be filled by the Holy Spirit rather than being drunk. Again, Christianity, does not concern itself with temporal authority or legality, so we don't care if those things are legal or not. But we will speak out against evil and things against the Laws of God, substance abuse is one of them.

3. I think there are tons of "religions" that does more horrid things than have gay sex throughout history, such as human sacrifices, child/infant sacrifices, mutilations, public orgy, cannibalism, superstitions, suicide attacks, sacrificing widows by burning them alive, bury wives and/or relatives of the deceased alive, etc and etc. Christians never said that we need to wipe them out, just that whatever religion they hide behind doesn't change the fact what they do are EVIL!

4. Why certain laws or commandments or precepts are not followed by today's Christians? First of all, precepts, commandments, laws, statues, testimonies, judgements all are different words and have different meanings. So you have to first understand that not all of them are the same. Also, the purpose of the Law was not that we should keep them, for NO one can keep the whole Law! But rather it was to bring us to Christ, who's the only to fulfill the law. Another point is the distinction between the Gentiles and the Jews. The early church indicated that they do not want to burden the Gentile with the laws of Moses (read Act 15). So the Gentile churches are not burdened with the dietary laws you mentioned. However, it doesn't mean that they are not good rules to live by, and it doesn't mean that God won't tell you to follow certain rules given in the Old Testament. But it just means that God is writing the laws in our HEARTS rather than on paper! So if God moves you to keep the Sabbath (Sunday or Saturday or everyday) then you do it. So if God moves you to eat kosher food, then you do it. But doesn't mean all Christians will do it! Those of us who do keep a stricter laws should not judge the ones who don't, and those who don't should not judge the ones who do, either (Romans 14).

5.God is in complete control A true man or woman of God should never ever take another human's life. However, that's given to you as your measure of faith dictates. I would not judge anyone who killed in self defense of their families and loved ones. Hey, even murderers God can forgive, of course God can forgive us for manslaughter. But would God want us to kill? I believe the answer is no. God says, Vengeance is MINE. I will let God carry out the punishments.

6. When does life begin? Please refer to this site: http://carm.org/bible-abortion

Please understand, the Bible is primarily written to Believers with the Holy Spirit to make sense of everything. So unless you take the step to submit your life to Jesus in faith and believe in Him, it will never make sense. And when it does start to make sense, then you will know that's because God has opened the eyes of your heart!

Just a few things regarding your post, which I mostly agreed w/.

1. As for your point about not drinking or using cannabis...

Let me point out Genesis 1:29, where G-d gives all herbs to man for sustenance. Also, many Biblical scholars believe that cannabis was one of the ingredients in the 'anointing oils' that one would bath in and rub on themselves before entering the 'Holy of Holies'.

As for your point about alcohol, let me remind you that Yeshua himself turned water into wine, and that G-d commands His people to drink wine on the Sabbath, and it is repeated many times in the Bible that G-d has blessed us with wine. Etc... on the wine thing. Yes, getting wasted drunk is not good, but G-d never says boo about having a few drinks.

Of course doing anything in excess is a sin. There's the story of the people all eating way too much sugary syrup, until they were so fat and lazy they couldn't move... So the problem is really about excess, and not thanking G-d, taking Him for granted, and worshipping something else... whether it be food, drink, drug, sex, gamboling, etc...

2. You made a point about 'early church' members or someone 'not wanting to burden 'the gentiles' with the Old Testament Laws. Not sure where you are getting that. The dietary thing was almost surely a cultural thing, nothing to do with Scripture. The story goes from Israel, to Rome, so you can see how. Did the 1o Commandments stop holding weight? No.
Yeshua specifically said, "I have come not to change one jot or tittle of the Law (Torah, in Hebrew means Law), but to fulfill it".

So, I'm not really putting a lot of weight behind some men a few centuries after Christ who tried separating 'Christianity' from the Jewish roots under orders of the Roman emperor. The Roman Church is well known for it's attempts, some failed, some not, at severing the Jewish roots of Christianity, and injecting pagan beliefs, rituals, and traditions.

My mother is Roman Catholic, father Jewish. I am Messianic Jewish... Just so you have an idea of where I'm coming from on this perspective.

PEOPLE OPPOSING TYRANNY - Real Grass Roots!
Are you a POT or a PET - Person Embracing Tyranny?

Thanks for replying...

I want to discuss further but it is 3:16 AM and I need to recharge my battery.

GoodSamaritan's picture

For #4

You're mixing ceremonial and civil laws, that ended when God dissolved the Old Covenant, with moral laws that continued into the New Covenant.

Ron Paul - Honorary Founding Father

What chapter in the New Testament contain...

the New Covenant laws? I've search for them, but what I find is many very long interpretations of what the New Covenant is, ranging from the New Covenant is the Old Covenant to the New Covenant is something along the lines of receiving the Holy Spirit by accepting Jesus as the savoir of man because he died for our sins.

This is what frustrates me about religion. It's so vague and open to so many different interpretations. Of course, many don't feel that way, they know exactly what it means but it differs from so many other interpretations and none of them are simple, cut and dry. They have to clarify ten different other things before they can clarify one simple question.

For example, "Thou shalt not kill." Kill whom? Unborn babies? Muslim terrorist? Abortion doctor assassins? Collateral damage victims? Rapist? Child-molesting murderers?

Most Christians can't agree on this one "simple" commandment, which is under the Old Covenant.

I don't know, I'm going with, "treat others as you would have them treat you" and "judge not lest ye be judged."

That's all I can handle and have a hard enough time just doing those two simple things.

It's hard out here for a Christian Libertarian.

GoodSamaritan's picture

The English language has changed

substantially since that commandment was interpreted as, "Thou shalt not kill." At the time, "kill" in context meant murder. That's why modern English translations use the term "murder". And there is no qualifier as to who is covered by that commandment.

Some moral laws were explicitly reiterated in the New Testament. The Golden Rule you paraphrase, among them. Others are discerned by seeing what was explicitly revoked, for example, ancient Hebrew ceremonial laws related to Temple worship, which ended c. 70 AD.

Ron Paul - Honorary Founding Father

We must remember that the Bible (OT) was originally written in..

..Hebrew.

So that (Torah scroll) is where we must look for the original language. You are 100% correct when you say that "You shall not Murder" is the commandment, not simply "You shall not kill". But it was not the English language that changed necessarily, as much as it was that the original translation (known as the Septuagint) from Greek (which was translated from the Hebrew) to English changed the language to say "Thou shalt not kill". And there it is.

PEOPLE OPPOSING TYRANNY - Real Grass Roots!
Are you a POT or a PET - Person Embracing Tyranny?

GoodSamaritan's picture

For #2

"It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man." Matthew 15:11

Ron Paul - Honorary Founding Father

GoodSamaritan's picture

To your last question...

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations." Jeremiah 1:5

"For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them." Psalm 139:13-16

Ron Paul - Honorary Founding Father

So, life begins before conception...

Sounds like we are all spirits and the physical body is a container for the spirit. So, if the physical container doesn't manifest, the spirit will find another physical container.

That is why our spirit lives on after death, whether born or not.

GoodSamaritan's picture

I would not conclude that life begins before conception

but certainly that it begins no later than conception.

We are unique among all creatures in that we are spirit and body. If the body doesn't "manifest" then it has died. Hebrews 9:27 says that "...it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment", so I would say the spirit then goes to one of two possible places where it awaits the resurrection of the body.

Ron Paul - Honorary Founding Father

And that's the conundrum...

"(I) would say" based on one partial verse. Who are you? Why is your interpretation the right one? (Asking respectfully, as I'd imagine a non-believer may or may not.)

"...it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment"

What about Enoch and Elijah? What about miscarriages, still born babies, newborn babies or young children that die? Is that the spirit's only shot at life before judgement if their life began at conception and only die once?

What if someone else interprets it differently? Why should I listen to them?

What man speaks for God?

This is why it seems unwise to mix religion with government. No man can speak for God.

As a Christian Libertarian I prefer to believe that God gives a choice to obey his word but we should never take that choice away from others by force of law unless it hurts another or their property. By doing so, we are judging and shouldn't according to God. God doesn't need man to force his laws upon one another.

That's just my opinion, not gospel, do as you want but don't decide for me based on your interpretation of the Bible.