16 votes

Help me win an argument with my wife about Open Carry!

I was reading a post about a woman in Michigan that called the cops on a guy walking down the street open carrying, and the 911 operator said to her that it wasn't illegal. I can't seem to find that post again, but it got my wife and I talking, or should I say having a "spirited debate".

My wife says concealed carry is fine, however she doesn't believe people should open carry because it will freak people out. So my question to the Paulites here is, why is open carry a good thing, in practical terms?

I don't mean just because the Constitution says so, but what are the real world advantages to open carry vs. concealed carry? Obviously seeing someone carrying is a huge deterrent to criminals, but what else? Inquiring minds want to know.

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Go for it. You're safer open carrying than carrying concealed.

I have been open carrying for nearly a year. Astonishingly, only my local Vietnam Veterans of America post has asked me not to open carry inside. My wife feels safer if I'm with her when she's out and about shopping and stuff.

You'll get over the nervousness about open carrying after the first week. If you conceal carry you are more likely to be involved in a crime than if you open carry. Bad guys don't knowingly challenge armed citizens.

When I first began to open carry I was real nervous so I asked two owners at restaurants I patronize if it was OK to do so and both said sure. My credit union manager welcomes me as a deterrent to bad guys when I'm there. I'm over the nervousness now. I don't ask if its OK to go anywhere anymore, I just act like I belong in restaurants, gas stations, book stores, home improvement stores, pharmacies, discount stores, and grocery stores.

Curious people who have asked me why I open carry have all responded positively.

People do not usually notice a guy with a holstered side arm. They have other things on their minds than me. I commonly get thumbs up or horn toots from those who notice I'm carrying when I go for a walk.

How do people tell the difference between me and a felon is simple. I walk in with a holstered sidearm and order a meal or do some shopping. Bad guys come in with a gun in their hand and order everybody on the floor.

I am a member of Michigan Open Carry Inc. We encourage open carry to get people used to citizens with holstered sidearms. Rights unused are soon abused.

Check out the open carry confrontations with cops on youtube. Know your rights and how to respond to cops who ignore the law should you ever be stopped and questioned. Police cannot stop an armed citizen unless they have reasonable suspicion. Stand on your hind legs and fight before it's all gone.

http://www.dailypaul.com/309245/detroit-police-chief-calls-f...

It only takes one to KEEP AMERICANS FREE. Know your duties & rights as a juror. Stop the unconstitutional conviction of innocents in federal custody. The Fully Informed Jury CALL 1-800-TEL-JURY www.fija.org IMMEDIATELY if not sooner. It's that important.

I have a very strict gun control policy:

"I have a very strict gun control policy: if there's a gun around, I want to be in control of it." - Clint Eastwood

"Hell is empty, and all the devils are here" (Shakespeare)
RP 2012~ Intellectual Revolution.

Simplify it

Brandishing a weapon is never good.

Notice I used "brandishing".

Concealed lets the other human know you aren't about to use it.

After all you don't walk around with your fists held high ready to fight even though you don't intend to use them.

I think it's polite to conceal.

WRONG!! Open carry isn't brandishing.

To brandish is to wave a firearm in a threatening manner. In other words, it has to be in the hand of the brandisher. Carrying a firearm in a holster is not brandishing, nor is it threatening.

Open carry is polite, Concealed carry is sneaky.

During the warmer weather I open carry everyday, everywhere I go. I have been asked to not do so in only one place; my local chapter of the Vietnam Veterans of America of all places. Everywhere else I am welcome.

I have been questioned once by a sheriff's deputy. That was before I knew that it is illegal for a cop to ask me any questions about why I am carrying, unless, he has reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed or is about to be committed.

Michigan is big on open carry. I have opened carried in Ohio also.

I recommend open carry as the bad guys stay away when they see an armed citizen. Concealed carry hides the firearm and makes it more likely that a gun will be pulled in the commission of a crime and exposes the CPL holder to some real bad outcomes.

It only takes one to KEEP AMERICANS FREE. Know your duties & rights as a juror. Stop the unconstitutional conviction of innocents in federal custody. The Fully Informed Jury CALL 1-800-TEL-JURY www.fija.org IMMEDIATELY if not sooner. It's that important.

Um

You proved my point.

I used brandishing as a point.

It was a trick you fell for.

The other human may or may not see whether you are brandishing a weapon - keeping it holstered, in a gun bag on your back or concealed (as most will because they'll want to carry it in their handbag or somewhere else convenient.) let's the other human who isn't as bright as you know your intentions just that little better.

I didn't say you had to conceal it, I said it was polite. And it's not sneaky because I'm not navigating around anything or deceiving - I'm choosing to conceal it with my free will. That is not a crime or immoral.

A lot of people won't want to open carry because to them having it open carry (or even carry at all) isn't of importance.

In fact most people would prefer that when they wake up in the morning they don't have to attach another garment in the morning everyday as a requirement by taking- but they don't want their right to carry taken away still.

Just because you might, for whatever reason, doesn't mean others do. And it's not sneaky. Besides I bet some folk around you see that you walk confidently with it and figure you're a cop or feel you aren't a threat.

You cannot win an argument with your wife.

Ĵīɣȩ Ɖåđşŏń

"Fully half the quotations found on the internet are either mis-attributed, or outright fabrications." - Abraham Lincoln

Ditto

Sorry. But it is the Truth - You can not win an argument with your wife.

Also the more logic and facts that back up your case means that you loose the argument even more.

But if you dare...

..you must apologize immediately!

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Because people will learn

People will learn that over 99% of gun owners never have committed a crime. That less than 1% of gun crimes are committed by legal gun owners.

People will learn that gun owners make you safer, not less safe.

Making legal citizens hide their guns hides these facts, and it strengthens the anti-liberty movement.

Don't make honest, stand-up citizens hide in the shadows.

Over time the anti-freedom bigotry against gun owners will wear off and people will be relieved to see a gun. They will know that they are more likely to be protected by that gun than hurt by it.

Read the Constitution

" . . . the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

The Constitution doesn't mention open or concealed carrying of those arms, or "freaking people out," so the argument is unnecessary unless you and your girlfriend enjoy legal jousting.

You both win.

Each view is valid when you understand people's right to freely feel as they please.

The best anyone can do when faced with opposition, is to be as well informed as possible about the issue. Do your best to put your opinions forward and accept the other's right to do the same. In the end, the worst of it is that you agree to disagree. Both parties leave learning something they weren't as informed about as the other is.

If I were to open-carry, I'd conceal it anyways. I don't want to cause anyone any kind of distress if I can avoid it. I know I don't have to be considerate of even those who are living this life from a point of view that many of us forget we were once in too. When most people live in a reality where they've been conditioned into fear-based-level existence, well, it's easy to be afraid.

Just because you can doesn't always mean you need to.

"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience"—Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

Open carry isn't threatening.

That open carry is threatening to others is a common misconception. That hasn't been my experience in Michigan. I have been open carrying in Michigan for nearly a year now. Only My local Vietnam Veterans of America post has asked me not to open carry inside.

When I first began to open carry I was nervous so I asked two restaurant owners at restaurants I patronize if it was OK to open carry and both said sure. My credit union manager welcomes me as a deterrent to bad guys when I'm there. I don't ask anymore, I just walk in like I belong.

Curious people who have asked me why I open carry have all responded positively. No one has said anything negative to me. People do not notice a guy with a holstered side arm. They have other things on their minds than me. I commonly get a thumb up or a horn toot from those who notice I'm carrying when I go for long walks.

How do people tell the difference between me and a felon is simple. I walk in with a holstered sidearm and order a meal or do some shopping. Bad guys come in with a gun in their hand and order everybody on the floor.

I am a member of Michigan Open Carry Inc. We encourage open carry to get people used to citizens with holstered sidearms circulating among them.

It only takes one to KEEP AMERICANS FREE. Know your duties & rights as a juror. Stop the unconstitutional conviction of innocents in federal custody. The Fully Informed Jury CALL 1-800-TEL-JURY www.fija.org IMMEDIATELY if not sooner. It's that important.

The credit is all your's for representing yourself well

Confidence is a powerful force. Clearly, it's working in your favour. I congratulate you for being an excellent example of how to "Carry Yourself" (pun intended) around people that may feel nervous around firearms. It really is about the vibe that you put out when you're out in public exercising your right. I'm not sure of your age but you sound like a mature person, where I think most people get "freaked out" when they see 20-something-year-olds exercising the same right. Blame the media for that.

Anyways, I'm speaking from a completely removed point of view as a Canadian. I've only held a handgun once when my grandmother took me along to visit a friend of hers who was a cop and I was 6 or 7 at the time. Never even fired a gun but I completely respect and understand the importance of your 2nd Amendment rights.

Keep up the great education and inspiration.

"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience"—Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

Personal Access -

The only other practical advantage - besides displaying presence and your second Amendment right - that I could possibly see from open-carry would be faster personal access to your firearm, but that advantage certainly cuts both ways. Intend on maintaining a combat mindset every time you leave your house if you open-carry. It is a bold statement that can easily be taken advantage of, especially concerning the general attitudes of our society.

Concealment is farm more practical. Any speed that would be lost by reaching under your clothing is moot in daily life today and more than amply compensated by a level head.

SteveMT's picture

This is the open carry video in question:

Open Carry Advocate Threatened With Unlawful Arrest By Buda TX Police Officer

http://youtu.be/J4MPGjMVYMM

Why not both?

I have a friend who is a deputy sheriff and he does both, on or off duty, and nobody ever gives him any crap. Of course he is an excellent shot and can get his open carry out very quickly, it takes him a little longer to get his concealed, of course it is on his ankle. He hopes he would never have to be in a situation where he would have to pull it out.

Well....Conceal Carry is better....

Conceal carry from a practical standpoint is just superior in my opinion.
You don't cause anyone to panic.
You don't provoke any confrontations.
You don't give anyone the opportunity to grab your weapon.
You don't give the enemy the benefit of knowing who is armed.

Honestly I disagree with the method that many so called "open carry protestors" use.
And by putting that in quotes I'm referring to those people who somehow think its good to walk around with only 1-2 people, with guns strapped all over you, zero signage, and no advance warning to the local PD's
That kind of "protesting" does more harm than good.

Why?
Simple really; There are many mentally unstable people in our world today, there are many pansies that freak-out at the sight of any weapon, and there are plenty of douche Police.
Put that all together and you're are basically adding gasoline to a flame. You are not educating. You are not acclimating people to the sight of guns. All you do is cause a scene that you can film and post on youtube, and cry woe is me.

Thoughtful, considerate open carry, where your genuine desire is to educate should ideally have all of the following ingredients. (especially in the more liberal anti-gun area's.)

1. Have a predetermined route, or at least a general one. (Or a predetermined spot if you're not planing on moving)
2. Inform your local PD's of this, so they are better prepared.
3. Try and have more than 2 people. This helps even the anti-gun see it as more of an organized event, than just a potential nut-job with a gun.
4. Signage; this just further compounds the last principle, and broadcasts that you are carrying to make a point, and not a nut-job.

If you are just walking around solo with a gun and a phone-camera, you are asking for trouble and I really don't pity you.
Your intent to educate is not genuine, but rather you are being selfish and inconsiderate of others.

Acclimating people back to accepting guns as normal is a gradual process, and must be done with care and consideration.

"If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy." -- James Madison

should people be allowed to walk around naked in public?

How do you feel about that?

“With laws shall our land be built up, but with lawlessness laid waste.”
-Njal Thorgeirsson

They are.

People are allowed to walk around naked in public. There are nude beaches, etc. How I feel about that is irrelevant.

[F]orce can only settle questions of power, not of right. - Clyde N. Wilson

c'mon

Stop avoiding the question and stop pretending like you don't see how this is related to open carry. I am not talking about a nude beach. I am talking about a public street.

“With laws shall our land be built up, but with lawlessness laid waste.”
-Njal Thorgeirsson

You may find some clues in this book:

http://www.dailypaul.com/309207/that-every-man-be-armed-the-...

I saw the best minds of my generation, destroyed by pandas starving hysterical naked

-Allen Ginsberg

It is exposure therapy.

People with irrational phobias, like hoplophobia, benefit from being exposed to the things that freak them out in non-threatening circumstances. For instance, someone who fears spiders will become less fearful if frequently exposed to them in situations where the person understands they will not be harmed.
Similarly, people, who have had limited real world exposure to them, have been trained to fear firearms in school, or through television.
There is help for this maleducation, however.
Seeing firearms being carried by people who do not threaten them in their daily public activities is therapeutic. People trained to freak out at the sight of a firearm can be trained to be indifferent to their presence through familiarity. Through open carry, you are helping people overcome their irrational fears.

[F]orce can only settle questions of power, not of right. - Clyde N. Wilson

Your Wife Is Correct

I would much prefer to c@rry conce@led. Open c@rry is only the next best option for those who c@n't get permits to c@rry conce@led in cert@in st@tes. The b@d guys don't need to know when I'm @rmed.

Just slap a fake badge on and nobody will care

open carry with a fake badge, maybe just a round piece of metal that says "HI, I'm Joe" on it. Anyone that looks will not give it a second thought, if they even bother to read it.

Have her ponder this Ben Franklin quote:

"An armed society is a polite society".

"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a rEVOLution before tomorrow morning." - Henry Ford

TwelveOhOne's picture

Well, points for style but...

downvoted for accuracy.

That's a Robert Heinlein quote. I've been saying it for 30 years. And I just double-checked, no form of it is attributed to Mr. Franklin.

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SteveMT's picture

In Montana, people have many options with open carry.

In Montana:
-------------
First, the definition of “concealed” for concealed weapons in Montana is not a dictionary definition as in hidden from view. Rather, the definition is specified in law as “wholly or partially covered by clothing or wearing apparel.”

Thus, under the seat of your car (in Montana – different in other states), in the console between the seats, in the glove box, in a backpack, in a briefcase, and even in a woman’s purse are not considered to be “concealed” for the purpose of Montana concealed weapon law.

Under current law you may carry openly most places, regardless of city limits. You may carry concealed outside city limits without a permit. You may carry concealed inside city limits without a permit in your home or place of business (presumably with your employer’s permission).

You may also carry concealed inside city limits without a permit if you are a person “who is lawfully engaged in hunting, fishing, trapping, camping, hiking, backpacking, farming, ranching, or other outdoor activity in which weapons are often carried for recreation or protection;”, says current law.

So, if you are inside city limits, outside your home or place of business, and not doing one of the list of outdoor things exempted in the law, and have a firearm “wholly or partially covered by clothing or wearing apparel,” you must have a concealed weapon permit to be legal.

Read more: http://www.ammoland.com/2011/05/when-is-concealed-carry-real...
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Your wife does not accept ...

... the Non-Aggression Principle. And this will be a problem in other "debates," as well.

The libertarian Non-Aggression Principle: He who INITIATES force is morally wrong.

It is fine to act in self-defense, as well as the defense of others. It is even honorable to do so, but it is wrong to INITIATE force against others.

Because she does not fully understand (or accept) this idea, she is stuck in the mindset that she has some say in how other people live their lives -- even when those other people are not violating anybody's rights. She must also accept, then, that other people have a say in how she lives her life -- even when she is not violating anyone's rights.

Freaking someone out says something about THEM, and does not violate their rights. Offending someone does not violate their rights. Your wife's view on this topic offend me, but she does not violate my rights.

Either she accepts the principle that NOBODY has the authority to INITIATE force against another (who is not violating someone's rights) or she does not accept the principle. If she does not accept the principle, then the problem SHE has is that she has automatically accepted the idea that OTHER people CAN dictate to her how SHE will live her life.

So, just pick a topic she feels strongly about: abortion, religion, women's rights, children's education, taxes, or any topic that she has a strong opinion about. Let her know that by not accepting the NAP, she is AUTOMATICALLY agreeing that other people can dictate to her how to live her life as it relates to her important topic. Other people can tell her how to educate her children, or what to eat, or if she has a right to divorce (he he) or if she has a right to work, etc.

See how that works. If you can stick to the NAP, then she should be able to see that open carry (or concealed carry) does not violate anyone's rights.

Now, it might be DUMB for HER to open carry if someone else could easily take it from her, but smart/dumb are different topics of conversation than right/wrong. And if she can get that, then it should help in other political topics, too.

Also, a lot of women try not to offend others, which might be where her "freaking people out" thing comes from. She needs to get her head around the idea that offending people does not violate their rights, but dictating to people, through the force of government, does.

Have fun!

Great comment!

That's pretty much what I was trying to say...but you did it a little more eloquently!

http://www.dailypaul.com/309169/help-me-win-an-argument-with...

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Your comment reminds me of

Your comment reminds me of the fallacy of neocon thinking, that self defense is going to war to prevent war.

Our conversations also morphed onto the topics of illegal searches, and free speech. She asked me why I kept changing the topics, I told her because the topic is not about guns, it is about the rights of the individual trumping what society feels is convenient.

She is Filipino, and I asked her what if 51% of people voted to make Filipinos slaves, it is democracy right? Majority vote wins right? Not if what the majority wants violates the rights of the individual, as it pertains to the constitution. She said her people would fight if enslaved, lol.