-29 votes

The forums are flooded with religionists

The question is why? Why now?

Have they been essentially kicked out of the GOP and are now looking for new people to bother?

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It's easy...

...to get off into the weeds in any philosophical discussion, whatever the topic; and I apologize if I've contributed to any seemingly weird tangents -- like delving into how the different Christian views on Love, hell, reconciliation dovetail with issues of Liberty, morality, etc. Maybe I'll dial back on my participation in these kinds of conversations, if it's just annoying to most. Trying to connect the dots from first principles to Liberty, etc. and comparing that from multiple philosophical/theological points of view is kind of my passion at the moment. Maybe I should just leave that to my private musings and studies now. Maybe that's part of raising the bar in 2014 -- being more silent in this area.

It's a massive



The answer is simple. This

The answer is simple. This site is a minarchist site which is simply tyranny-lite. The religious still need the gov to enforce their own brand of tyranny in your bedroom and with your body. So the religious never want to eliminate gov because they need their "righteous" use of force imposed by that monopolistic entity. They pretend they are a breed apart from dems and repubs, but they are not different. To them, the non-aggression principle always has an asterisk after it.

They worship a document that created the monster we have today and instead of wanting to kill that monster as any sane person would, they simply want to put a leash on it and train it for their own purposes.

"In reality, the Constitution itself is incapable of achieving what we would like in limiting government power, no matter how well written."

~ Ron Paul, End the Fed

To paint all...

...who hold the core philosophy of theism as authoritarians and to insinuate that they could never be voluntarists is ridiculous. Voluntarism isn't the special purview of atheism or nihilism or agnosticism or whatever other non-theistic -ism there might be.

In fact, I've been rapidly approaching the fence between minarchism and anarcho-capitalism (from the minarchist side) and am now sitting on it, mulling it over, not being driven there by the absence of God, but by trying to uphold the Great Commandments of Love as first and foremost. If you took a poll of all the theists on this site, I very much doubt you'd find more than a couple who think the government has any business meddling in bedrooms, etc. as you suggested.

Rights come from God.

That's why.

LOL, and you only don't

LOL, and you only don't murder people because a magic sky fairy in a fictional book tells you not to. Scary.

"In reality, the Constitution itself is incapable of achieving what we would like in limiting government power, no matter how well written."

~ Ron Paul, End the Fed

Aren't you the one I read earlier

talking about strawmen? Mr. Raceboy please shake hands with Mr. Strawman.

I'm quite sure I don't even see murder mentioned in the post you are replying to. Just saying

What do you mean by "Religionist"?

I could be wrong but my guess is that you equate anyone who doesn't prescribe to Godless evolution to a "religionist". God exists apart from religion. Religion is created by man, and is and always will be bastardized to control others. I believe in the message of Christ and am a libertarian.

Not everything is black and white. There are many people, like myself, that consider evolution to be a religion. Personally I choose to believe that this universe and everything in it was created by an architect. Accidents don't have value. Creations do, because they have intent. Our laws and rights exist because of this belief. We do not have a Bill of Rights, Human Rights, and private charities because of darwinian principles like natural selection or survival of the fittest. The most violent and oppressive atrocities have come at the hands of godless governments and godless tyrants, no religious people.

What created matter? Why did the big bang happen? Did it happen? Do you understand that the entire basis of "science" is observation and extrapolation? Do you realize that everything we think science has proven has been through theory and extrapolation of what we currently observe? Have you heard of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle? Have you delved into the world of quantum mechanics? There is on unifying theory. It's all hypothesis. The four forces--gravity, weak force, strong force, and electromagnetic force--we don't actually know what the heck they are. We can only measure it's perceived effect on our world. This is no different than faith.

Do you know what a logic

Do you know what a logic equation looks like? You say for something to exist, it must have been created. You say god exists? Well then what created god? Can't have your cake and eat it too there pal. Oh, god exists spontaneously? But you just argued that's impossible! Which is it. Oh no, you've gone cross-eyed.

The only reasonable answer anyone can give about what's beyond this life is that they don't know. If god is just and logical and he placed me on a planet with free will and 10K religions to pick from, he/she/it would have to know "I don't know" is the only supportable conclusion any of us could come to and if he's going to punish people who make the wrong choice, then he isn't just anyway.

"In reality, the Constitution itself is incapable of achieving what we would like in limiting government power, no matter how well written."

~ Ron Paul, End the Fed


The high school educated low atheism is getting old. Please learn some history and understand your opponents first. Don't you think your -8 comment reception rating may make you want to sit back and think about the things you write before you write them?

What qualifies someone for your newly defined collective?

Does it include those who agree with and quote old formulations?

Are they lumped together with those using these words to deceive?

Why shouldn't this be considered a demonization of what you want destroyed.

If heard suggested that those who don't believe something fall for anything.

Seems like neither Party wants those that might interfere with their murderous, lying, stealing and coveting ways.

Free includes debt-free!

I think it's...

...just that it's hard to keep things so compartmentalized that no mention of the connection of whatever topic to a person's core philosophy occurs. This is true whether the core philosophy is atheism or theism: it's just natural to want discuss how Liberty, science, the natural world, morality relates to first principles, either way.

Just pointing out

that there is a huge difference between 'atheist' who don't believe in a God, and 'anti-theist' who's main goal is to destroy other peoples belief in God. I know and love many atheist who respect my choices in life. I haven't met a single anti theist that I could spend more than a few minutes with. Not because they somehow made me doubt my faith, but because they have absolutely no respect for people who believe differently from them. I have no reason to try and destroy what a person believes in, and I'm pretty sure that doing so wouldn't make me feel 'superior' in any way. More than likely it would send me into a deep depression just knowing that I could be that sorry of a bastard.

ecorob's picture

Possibly...maybe....just thinking out loud...

That its because, contrary to what the lame street idiots tell us, most Americans ARE religious and DO believe in God?

Just throwing that out there...

its 'cos I owe ya, my young friend...
Rockin' the FREE world in Tennessee since 1957!
9/11 Truth.

you're just picking on us Deists.

I REALLY hate to bump this post....

what we all believe in..
is freedom to chose.

BILL3 and the cheesy one, are one and the same.

brain welfare


Because we can

Because we can - Freedom of religion, freedom of assembly, freedom of speech.

Why today? With so many of our rights being eroded, undermined or under threat IMO expression of religious beliefs is another form of resistance.

"One resists the invasion of armies; one does not resist the invasion of ideas" Victor Hugo

Yes I have no doubt that our

Yes I have no doubt that our banking masters consider a large segment of the population who is suseptable to groveling before a mysterious, unelected, all-powerful authority figure who runs their lives, tells then what they can and cannot do, spies on them constantly & executes them without charge and trial; all without uttering a word himself, but rather through the words of his earthly minions, to be highest form of rebellion.

If you think having the kind of mind that can accept Christianity opposes what the banksters and elites who run the world want, you are insane. Religeon is the fertile soil that allows tyranny & collectivism to exist. They WANT you to beleive in god.

Not so

To make my point very simple Those that believe in God put him above Government rules or laws and the establishment want all power.
That would be a oxymoron.

That explains the salem witch

That explains the salem witch trials and all my "liberty" friends who just voted to make it illegal for gay people to get married.

You "can" be Chrisitan and not try to use government as a club to force your mythology down other people's throats, its just exceedingly rare.

You can also be a homosexual and not try to

use government as a club to force your mythology down other people's throats.

Is it "forcing" for the gays

Is it "forcing" for the gays to ask for equal rights? Is there some reason beside your bible that two grown men should be unable to enter into a contract with one another?

What I'm talking about is homosexuals using

the state to force Christians to bake cakes for their so-called weddings. Not only does that violate the Christians' freedom of association, but also the Christians' religious beliefs.

I'm sure you know that a recent case of this happened in a state where homosexual "marriage" is not even legal.

The homosexuals could buy their wedding cakes from someone who will voluntarily bake and sell cakes to them for this purpose, but, no, the homosexuals want to force, force, force.

Woah... what a conclusion

Those who follow blindly or are mesmerized by... (fill in blank)... were already sheep to be fleeced. Plenty of people are religious or spiritual as well as enlightened and aware.

Did you forget it was one of the rights our constitution protects? That you uphold the entire constitution?

As for the elites who run the world... their method is control through currency manipulation and debt. They enslave you through your wallet.

With regards to rebellion - the faithful played a big part in dismantling the Iron Curtain, especially in Poland. Refer to the Solidarity Movement. When religion was made illegal, practicing and assembling was a form of resistance.

"One resists the invasion of armies; one does not resist the invasion of ideas" Victor Hugo

Ever heard of the catholic

Ever heard of the catholic church? Before the central bank, religeon was the primary peasant control of choice. Today, id rank it 3rd behind currency manipulation and entertainment. The banking masters may prefer to control you with the top 2, but im sure they're still perfectly happy with people being suseptable to number 3.

Is everyone who is Christian a slave incapable of libertarian values? Nope. Are plenty of otherwise rational people who "might" have held libertarian values hopelessly deluded by their faith? Yep. Ill tell you one thing though, a man man not serve two masters and in the end, the Christian will side with his religeon over freedom. How do I know? Because in our state when they pushed a reforendam to ban gay marriage, many of my "liberty" friends voted in favor of it. Huh. I guess freedom only applies to activities sanctioned in the bible.

Magwan77, you preach like a

Magwan77, you preach like a sweaty evangelist in a July tent rival. Is there something wrong with tyranny and collectivism? Are these things 'evil'? Are these things that OUGHT not exist in this godless universe? If so, please explain why in a way consistent with your atheism. It should be great fun!

Because Collectivism and

Because Collectivism and tyranny are dangerous to my children and loved ones. They are illogical systems that create an unstable society of slaves and masters which, while benifiting the elite for a short time, will eventually collapse into a blood bath which endangers everyone's(esspecially the elites) loved one's.

The non-aggresion principal coupled with the idea of natural rights is the only logical way I know of for humans to coexist with one another. It can provide the safest, most prosperous society for my children to live in without risk of death camps.

Much like how I choose to put my child into a car seat on the road, rather than strapping her to the bumper and driving 200 mph. One would be stupid and "wrong" because of the likleyhood of harmful reprocussions. The other I consider sensable and "good."

Those things which will cause harm to my loved ones, I consider bad. Those which benifit their long term, self interests, I consider good.

Do you need a deity to tell you this? Do you require a deity to tell you that 1+1=2? That doing stupid things results in poor results? We don't need mythical supersticions to make choices. Just cause & effect. Tyranny and Collectivism produces harmful results, liberty and freedom produces good ones. Pretty simple.

In an atheist universe,

In an atheist universe, everything you wrote is simply a mountain of arbitrary subjectivity. Why should what you 'consider' good mean anything to anyone else? And what is this superstitious thing you call 'love' in the universe of colliding particles? Is it material? Is there an atomic number for this element called 'love'? Why do you need this mystical immaterial ghost called 'love' to direct you? How do you experience this 'love', isn't it just the result of chemical reactions inside your bonebox? Please explain this further.

Unstable societies? LOL! The Roman Empire did quite well (longevity wise) and here Magwan warns that societies of slaves and masters are unstable and last only a short time. History says otherwise. But regardless, why should it matter in an atheist universe? You and all your loved ones will soon be off this ride, and you will neither know, nor 'love' (?) those who come after. You simply wont exist.

If you found out tomorrow

If you found out tomorrow that there was no god, would you still love your children, or would they become random arbitrary matter in your eyes?

If you are capable of reason, and honest with yourself, that's all the answer you need.

There is no god, but alas; you do love your children anyway. Gee I guess that means that we have to be responsable for ourselves and get some emotional fortitude to "create" meaning in an otherwise random cosmos. That's the beauty of human reason. We find meaning and persue truth. And lo' we can come together in groups to create entire social structures and make the world a better place. And we don't need devisive, faction-based religeons to do it.

You claim that love just can't exist without your cosmic monarch, I claim you don't have a clue as to what is out there. You have no more idea how humans came to exist on this tiny blue sphere than I do. Differance is, you claim to "KNOW" that your knowledge gives your bat-shit crazy theories AUTHORITY. That is why people die in the name of yours and other people's gods. Because religeous zealots KNOW that what they are saying is the one TRUTH, and that that TRUTH is backed up by their super-wizard of choice, therefore they are justified in taking your rights if you don't agree. Afterall GOD WILLS IT!

The funny (sad) part is, if you actually did KNOW, you wouldn't have to meet with a bunch of other delusional people every sunday to try and convince each other and yourselves how god-damned much you DO believe. I don't need to constantly remind myself and be reminded by others about how much I love my family.

Last, about Rome. Rome was a pit of horrors where no one was safe. However it started out free(ish) and that created a lot of wealth. That wealth created an empire that lasted a long time. During that time, very few were "safe." least of all the political elite who were constantly assassinating one another and waging war. Don't put words in my mouth. Slave master societies can never last. They will always fall eventually, wether it be 200 years or 2000 years. Soon or later, the hubris of the rulers will get themselves and their families dragged out into the streets and butchered like animals, at the cost of thousands of "slaves" who die trying. As a society, it is not stable, or condusive to prsoperous, free lives for mine or your children. Collectivism and Tyranny is utterly illogcial and doomed to end in mass graves and horror.

Individualist society based on non-aggression principal is the only society which has any hope of creating "utopia" in the sense of maximum freedom and oppertunity for saftey, prosperity & happiness that we humans currently know of. If you don't get this, what are you doing here?

"There is no god"

Your faith in that statement is as much of a 'religion' as any other.