12 votes

12-year-old daughter to sit during the pledge of allegiance.

After talking with my daughter about liberty, we started talking about the Pledge of Allegiance. She asked if she could sit down during the pledge to see how much liberty she actually has. She's going to standup when her teacher tells her to, but then sit down during the part of "liberty and justice for all".

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Thank you...

for maintaining your sanity as a teacher and passing it on!

John Robb I would give you 10 upvotes if I could.


That attitude surprises me

I thought that people who visit the DP came here because they understand that their civil liberties are being eroded. How is it that someone is being given the freedom of individual expression and belief if they are required to conform to a doctrine ?

As far as I can see, the pledge of allegiance may have had noble roots, but if it is considered in a global context it is basically another expression of segregation. I'm all for celebrating the features that make a culture great, but is this really what the pledge of allegiance is about ? and even so.. what part of that should be mandatory ?

Freedom is a byproduct of acceptance - judge not.

lol, agreed.

lol, agreed.

Do you actually read Mencken?

Here's something actually more up his alley...

I wasn't aware that Mencken

I wasn't aware that Mencken would endorse obnoxious parents making their impressionable children play-act out their one dimensional political beliefs. lol.

That's not actually the case

That's not actually the case here. The OP tells the story of a girl, thinking for herself, asking her father if it would be okay for her to experiment with sitting during the pledge.

Even if it were such a case here, as you say, what makes you think Mencken might disapprove, or that he would not endorse obnoxious parents?

Ya it is. No better than

Ya it is. No better than makin ur 7 yr old pray to Obama.
Children are not political pawns. Get some perspective and get off my back. Thanks!

No, I'm trying to help

No, I'm trying to help Mencken off your back. He doesn't look comfortable up there. Like I said, it's a story about a girl finding her own initiative. You go girl! :D Brilliant curiosity and initiative to think of and want to know what might happen if she sits for the pledge. That's what learning is all about! ;)

Mencken's dead, and we'll never know what he may think of all this, even if it were as you say, all prompted and orchestrated by daddy. Nonetheless, I've read enough Mencken to know that he was viciously anti-Nationalist. Personally I think he would have completely endorsed an outright coast to coast campaign of parents telling their children to sit for the pledge of allegiance.

Ya well you know what they

Ya well you know what they say about opinions.

Yep, they're like assholes...

Yep, they're like assholes... yada yada...

but an asshole among lemmings might be what saves the lemmings

Opinions may be a dime a dozen. It's the freedom to have and express them, especially the ones that contrast against the opinions of the zombie herd, that is worth fighting for, worth being disruptive for.

Using your power and pressure

Using your power and pressure to get a child to live out your own unfulfilled political ambitions is not brave, edgy, or whatever you want to call it. It's pretty lame, actually.

Furthermore, people sit out the pledge all the time, its not even really a big deal. We will probably hear nothing more about this, because nothing will happen. Sitting out the pledge, burning a flag, desecrating a cross, calling a cop a pig, these things are not edgy or risky in the 21st century. They're actually pretty boring and commonplace. So it is lame, twice over.

Attack some real sacred cows and I will cheer for you. This is safe, boring, old stuff.

That's my opinion. Disagree? Good for you. We are free to hold whatever stupid opinions we want, and I don't really care to change yours. Pay me the same courtesy.

We are different. I do care.

I fully admit to attempting to change the minds of those who might read what I write. Anything less would be the measure of my narcissism. ;)

Happy New Year! :D

"Pay me the same courtesy."

"Pay me the same courtesy."

I think I have done so, paid you the same courtesy.

It is customary to include such a sentence upon conclusion when the issuer of such a sentence doesn't feel the other has paid equal or enough courtesy, and is vying for more. If you are not engaging customary address, then we are fine... I'll catch ya later! :D If your approach was in the customary vein, then please extend the courtesy of indicating to me any departures I may have made from extending to you equal courtesy. ;)

The pledge always seemed creepy to me...

I am a public school teacher. It really makes me feel like we are in a zombie government indoctrination camp when we have 1000+ people chanting a rehearsed mantra.

Kinda reminds me of the "Heil Hitler" salutes; just creepy.

Loyalty to your country? That is vague, ambiguous, and arbitrary. What is a country? Is it the ideals? The geographic location? The shape of the border? The latitude and longitude of the country? The climate of the country? Which part are you claiming loyalty to?

I could have just as easily been born in China, so I would be "loyal to China" in that case; arbitrary.

If I have loyalty to ANYTHING, it is to intellectual integrity and consistency.

Loyalty to Liberty.

Loyalty to Liberty.

I quit doing the pledge way back when I was in high school. I

just could not in good conscience pledge allegiance to anything or anyone but God.

It's sad because most people think I must be a God-hating communist whenever I refuse to say the pledge. :(

Christians should not be warmongers! http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance87.html

Creepy and natzi-like

The pledge was written by a self-professed Christian Socialist named Francis Bellamy. How Christian Socialism relates to National Socialism I do not know. Before the salute was a hand over the heart, it was identical to the Nazi salute.

Ĵīɣȩ Ɖåđşŏń

"Fully half the quotations found on the internet are either mis-attributed, or outright fabrications." - Abraham Lincoln

It was the fascist salute

It was the fascist salute first, because the Italian fascists adopted the Roman empire salute for whatever reasons of national pride or neo classicism. I think bellamy and co. adopted it well prior to the NSDAP. At the time it was adopted it did not have the connotations it has today. Even if it was adopted contemporaneously with the Italians, the fascists were not regarded as monsters until many years later.

I work in public school too.

I work in public school too. I'm reminded of Pavlov's dog when the announcement to please stand comes on the over the speakers.


Man Amen !

Freedom is a byproduct of acceptance - judge not.

When the flag no longer stands for 'liberty and justice for all'

Then you are perfectly justified in sitting for this 'de-facto deceit', IMHO.

I say "More power to you and your daughter for your courageous action."

Supportive link:

"Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern." ~~C.S. Lewis
Love won! Deliverance from Tyranny is on the way! Col. 2:13-15


I don't see any courage. It's completely legal for his daughter to sit out the pledge.

What I don't get is why so many confuse the flag and pledge to the government.. the government is not written in stone (constitution is just a peice of paper,, nothing to stand for there either eh?).. each election brings us new challenges and disappointments.. to think the flag represents Obama or Bush is to not understand what the flag stands for. FREEDOM.

Ron Paul told us, "We have lost our way". Why throw out and protest a symbol of Freedom?

How cool would it be to be in a class and instead of sitting out the pledge.. fly an Palestinian flag, or a Chinese Flag, or a UN flag.

If you are standing for nothing.. sit down. Because to me, it doesn't take courage to sit down. It takes courage to make a stand for what you actually believe.

Did you read my link?

The flag no longer represents what it did, now to many it represents interventionism, spying and the decline of the rule of law. But the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and (especially) the Bill of Rights don't just represent freedom, they codify it. When the flag is as badly represented as it has been for the past 100 years, (on and off) and many children in public schools face persecution for being different in any way, I affirm that it does take a degree of courage to 'sit down' when everyone else stands.(Though I understand the concept of staying seated through the whole thing, that is often a harder task for a teen than it would be an adult.)

"We have lost our way." said Ron Paul, but we drifted away from the path when Lincoln was elected. If the flag was the original flag, that might be a different story.

"Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern." ~~C.S. Lewis
Love won! Deliverance from Tyranny is on the way! Col. 2:13-15


I did read you link Libra_me.

I don't agree with the propeganda of controlled demolition by global organization controlled by communist and Islamic regines designed to make Americans abandon what they have for the BS they've got.

To me, the US flag represrnt FREEDOM and LIBERTY and I am far from alone, though the communist and Islam may ournumber me.



Umm.. ?

Using that logic the flag is just cloth, and since when is going against the majority in support of your alternative view not courageous, especially when it is shunned ?

I basically don't understand what any of your statements mean ?

Freedom is a byproduct of acceptance - judge not.

"liberty and justice for all"

Hmm, that's the only part I'd consider standing for.

I do understand the point of the lesson though. I hope it's enlightening. You're a good dad.

The pledge was a marketing gimmick created to sell flags

the pledge of allegiance script and ceremony was created by a flag marketing firm as a way to sell flags to civic organizations.

Just a marketing gimmick. Nothing more.

"In 1891, Daniel Sharp Ford, the owner of the Youth's Companion, hired Bellamy to work with Ford's nephew James B. Upham in the magazine's premium department. In 1888, the Youth's Companion had begun a campaign to sell American flags to public schools as a premium to solicit subscriptions. For Upham and Bellamy, the flag promotion was more than merely a business move; under their influence, the Youth's Companion became a fervent supporter of the schoolhouse flag movement, which aimed to place a flag above every school in the nation. By 1892, the magazine had sold American flags to approximately 26,000 schools. By this time the market was slowing for flags, but was not yet saturated.
In 1892, Upham had the idea of using the 400th anniversary of Christopher Columbus reaching the Americas to further bolster the schoolhouse flag movement. The magazine called for a national Columbian Public School Celebration to coincide with the World's Columbian Exposition. A flag salute was to be part of the official program for the Columbus Day celebration to be held in schools all over America."

Have they tried to change the

Have they tried to change the lyrics yet from "one nation under God", to one nation under Obama? After all school prayer is not allowed for Christians. Stop a Muslim though, and you are being intolerant, according to a "liberal".

You don't know at you've got 'til it's gone.

To me, all you're doing is teaching your daughter to be a "sore thumb". Why not teach her to stand out in a positive way? If the America flag offends your family so much, why not relocate your family to a country that does suit you? Apparently the US flag has far more respect by those who burn it, otherwise, why would they bother?

Essentailly, the US flag STANDS for LIBERTY. The stars represent the 50 states of the union, and the 13 stripes stand for the rebellion from British control. Seems pretty dumb to protest that to me. But maybe you don't know what the flag stands for except in some propeganda you bought?

That flag your daughter (desperately seeking attention) is rebuking is why she will be able to sit out, and no one will care.. except to notice that she is desperately seeking attention.