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Billy Graham’s grandson takes Christians to task: An interview with Tullian Tchividjian

I post this only after having a recent discussion with some fellow Evangelical Christians who are also my brothers in the love of Liberty, to help us all focus on things more important than all this political drivel we get so wrapped up in.


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What does this have to do with the liberty movement?

What does this have to do with the liberty movement? Isn't there a more appropriate place on the web for Christians to share posts like these?

The best quote in this article:

Charles Spurgeon nailed it when he said, “When I thought God was hard, I found it easy to sin; but when I found God so kind, so good, so overflowing with compassion, I beat my breast to think I could ever have rebelled against One who loved me so and sought my good.”

This, my friends is what the Gospel is all about, that is what the Cross was about.

God will change a person's behavior once Jesus has changed a person's heart.

God Bless!


Excellent quote JSDude1

Here is a video, 1 hour 9 minutes long about the life of Spurgeon that will bless you like no other video!


Please share it with others!

" In Thee O Lord do I put my trust " ~ Psalm 31:1~

Right on

Right on dude!

Be thee therefore subjected to all earthly authorities in humble

Submission, so that when persecutions come, and they shall if you are in Jesus, then they shall come because of His righteousness and not for any unrighteousness on our part.
Untill then and throuout that persecutions time keep your eyes focused on Jesus, and bring light into darkness, shining forth the gospel of the unsearchable and unimaginable love of God that is in Jesus Christ our risen Lord. For while we were yet sinners, under sentence of death in our sins, did He, that Very God Jesus Christ, come into the form of a man in the fleshthat He who withstood all temptations in Faith and communion with His Father, might secure our salvations in our belief in His sacrifice, ONCE FOR ALL MEN.
Knowing this then, that we are both saved and justified by His Faithfulness and not our own, lest we boast. But take heed brothers ad sisters lest you deceive yourselves as to the surety of your salvation: for your faith in Jesus without the working of Jesus through the Holy Spirit within you to the manifold benifit of others not yourself is a dead faith, and a dead faith will not be fit to live in heaven, nor upon the New earth. It is therefore not OUR works, but His through this agency of flesh and Faith in Him, that is the FRUIT of the Holy Spirit and the proof of our sanctification in Him, we have no recourse for pride, for without Him we were nothing, and without Him we still yet are the same. Therefore when you do good works, give glory to God, for it is just to rightly assign the glory to He whom does the work through you, truthfully God.

It is difficult being a Christian in more than mere word, oft time I find myself torn between the rage of the flesh against the worldly authorities who seem to take such demonic joy in tormenting and abusing their fellow men, and the command of Hod through his prophets Paul, Peter, Janes, and John to name but a few.. Those prophets, apostles, admonished us to submit to authority, to not malign leaders, to not be concerned with the things of this world: but how can we not when such evil is rampant and growing more vile by the hour?
I suppose it is then in the manner by which we act and speak that sepporates by whom we do these things, if it be of God then should it not bear His fruit? When he was persecuted, physically abused, lied about, slandered, and eventually murdered He did not once even reply against them nor raise any defense. Those apostles, what of their examples, how did they live in persecution? Only John died a natural death, and that years after Diocleatian tried to boil him alive in oil; the rest, crucified, killed by the sword, pulled apart between horses, a bevy of horrid deaths all the while all praised God and gave glory that they might be considered worthy of dying for their brothers in Jesus because the preached LOVE and not strife.
The reason secular authority HATES CHRISTIANS, is because in Christ there become NO NECESSITY for secular authorities at all, they have no place in Christ Jesus. They hate Jesus, because He makes them obsolete, and because they don't know Him they think they are going to stand at a loss because they won't be in control, thusly they fight against Him. Most men desire a heavenly kingdom, but most men reject its KING. As a Christian I know that I know, that despite the Spirit of God within, I am still FULLY ME, but more THE ME that I was created by God to be than the ME I was in my sin. Secularists might not know why they hate us, but in Love they might be able to see.

God bless, and awesome good favor to you all.

Stēkō Parrēsia Iesōus

Drew, by the very grace of GOD through the blood of Christ Jesus.
"there shall come after us men whom shall garner great wealth using our system, and having done so shall seek to slam the door of prosperity behind them." George Washington

Well said

Well said brother.

Glory to God.

: )

Drew, by the very grace of GOD through the blood of Christ Jesus.
"there shall come after us men whom shall garner great wealth using our system, and having done so shall seek to slam the door of prosperity behind them." George Washington

Actually, the foundation of my post

Was based upon 1 Peters admonishment, which is crystal clear, unless of course one wishes do do anything contrary to what it states. In which case mass obfuscation is the rule of the day.
I also have the Holy Spirit to guide me into the truth of all understanding, and God says the only reason that is viable for persecution for His children is because they do righteousness and the world can not handle it.
That being said, I also tried to show that I too struggle with doing the right things in this regard, feeling as most who are liberty minded do, that my toes are not only being steeped upon but are being deliberately tromped upon by those who are supposed to be looking out for me. My flesh says " take it all back by whatever means necessary ", the spirit says " if they change the law of God, stand firm with God upon it, but do not return evil for evil in so doing ", I believe that God wants His people to reflect His character, not their own selfish character in this.
BTW, I study ALWAYS from the original languages when I do my daily hour(s) long studies, I've become quite proficent with the Strong's and Koine/ Aramaic Greek, thusly my signature " Greek phrase in Koine "

Stēkō Parrēsia Iesōus
( steadfast declaration of Jesus )

God bless

Drew, by the very grace of GOD through the blood of Christ Jesus.
"there shall come after us men whom shall garner great wealth using our system, and having done so shall seek to slam the door of prosperity behind them." George Washington

He is making stawman arguments as to what is wrong

with Christianity. Also false definitions of what Grace is and what it means to the true believer. Also the insinuation that to be more Lawful is an outward change and not an inward change.

Lawfulness comes from the heart. Grace is given freely to those who accept it but is not unconditional. Salvation is not possible without repentance of sin. You must bear fruits worthy of Repentance.

I'm aware that

among Christians, some believe we need to earn salvation through works and some believe it is given by grace. I'm not here to argue either way. But while I can respect that you disagree w/the article re what is wrong with Christianity, from what you wrote I think you misunderstood a couple things.

You said that grace is "not unconditional." Actually, by definition, grace *is* unconditional. There is nothing you can do to earn it. That's rather its distinguishing characteristic! Look up the term in any old dictionary. Or look it up in wikipedia as relates specifically to Christianity. In other words, you can say you believe we are saved by just grace. Or you can say you believe we are saved by just works. But it's a contradiction to say you believe we are saved by grace, but only if we've accomplished things to deserve it.

Also, the issue of what is "outward" vs. "inward" refers to motivation. "Outward" motivation is associated with the LAW - rules that are expected to be obeyed. It applies to the Ten Commandments, house rules here at the DP, any rules. Don't obey and you risk a penalty. Obey and you might receive a reward but, in any event, you get the "reward" of not being punished!

Inherent in that concept of "obedience" is that you are obedient TO *someone* or *something*. That's what makes the motivation external, outside of one's self. It boils down to "positive & negative reinforcement," a system of rewards & punishments to induce one to act in a particular way.

I'll use cheating on a test as an example. Obviously, the rule is that you can't cheat. Maybe the penalty if you're caught is that you get an F for the quarter. IF you are MOTIVATED BY THE RULE, if out of fear of getting an F you don't cheat, that's different than if you wouldn't think to cheat, regardless, *because* YOU VALUED HONESTY.

Or take Rosa Parks. She broke the law. It didn't matter to her what the law was or what the consequence would be. (Jail.) She was motivated by her conviction that how blacks were treated was wrong.

If you're motivated by either the possibility of a reward (whether praise, money, peer acceptance, blessings, or anything else you might value) or the risk of a penalty (whether being banned from the DP, having to pay a fine, being banished to hell, or anything else you might want to avoid) - such law/rules-based action is "externally motivated." If you act according to your conscience regardless of any promise of reward or threat of punishment, your action is "internally motivated." The issue isn't the action, per se, but what motivates it.

There is a salient difference whether you are externally-motivated, such as by the law, or internally-motivated, acting entirely of your own volition based on your conscience. Really, the latter is what true FREEDOM is. You might be interested to check out Kohlberg's Stages of Moral Development, which (unrelated to religion) discusses this subject. There's a summary with examples on wikipedia.

As to my personal beliefs, I think Billy Graham's grandson is right on target with what is wrong with Christianity. I'm among the many who became disillusioned with church. What happened is a long story, but I can sum it up in... seven Words: I sat down and read the Gospels.

When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the Universe.
~ John Muir

Let me rephrase

I said that grace is given freely but is not unconditional. I should have said Grace is given freely but salvation is not unconditional. Thanks for the correction.

Cleanliness starts from within and is manifest outwardly through our actions. Mat 23:26 "Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also."

So as you see there is an outward sign of our faith. How would I know obedience without faith? How would I know faith without grace? How can grace be fruitful obedience?

It is not a series of rewards or punishment. If I tell my son not to put the scissors in the electrical outlet and he does it any way then it is a matter of cause and effect. If my son has faith in me then he will obey without having to find out the hard way as to why. You see it's a matter of perspective.

If I say "Do this and I will pay you" but you don't do it and don't get paid then that is not punishment. Death is a given. Salvation is the reward. Good deeds heap treasures.

To keep the Law is not the motivation as you seem to imply. Keeping the Law is a result of faith since our faith is evident through our works. If we say we have faith in Him yet our works prove otherwise then our faith is dead. If we continue in sin after we proclaim our faith in Him then we accomplish nothing. If we say we believe in Him yet work contrary to His word then we make ourselves liars.

Faith without works is dead. If you think that by Grace we are saved apart from our actions then we are in complete disagreement. Our faith is evident outwardly by our obedience.

Mat_5:16 "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."

James 2:17 "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

Mat_5:17,18 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled"

Mat 7:13 "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads unto life, and few there be that find it."

Sounds like you have it figured out

to about the middle of John the Baptist. Just kind of left off Johns baptism. oh and that other little thing like the whole ministry of Jesus Christ his doctrine and his plan of salvation but other than that you have a good start. Now run off and keep reading there is more to the book after the first story in the new testament. John the baptist is just the first story.

Oh and by the way.

Perhaps you should read what comes before John the Baptist and maybe you will understand what comes after.

Legalism vs. antinomianism

Yeah I've had that discussion with anothernobody before sort of. He is so disgusted with antinomianism that he's become totally legalistic. Which is natural, he just seems to forget that you hate your sin and repent only because God has already remade you, it is unconditional, unconditional and undeserved, otherwise you'd have something to boast about. We do need to repent, but we never would without first being regenerated, we're too depraved. Anothernobody even believes we need to follow the dietary restrictions of the old testament law, it's like the members of the circumcision group, how Paul warned against them, that if they begin to follow the law they will have lost Christ and be required to follow the whole law, unto death. Dangerous, but I hold out hope we're brothers. I believe many Jehovah's witnesses and Catholics are probably saved as well, anyone clinging to Christ. I pray he blesses us all.

You are the biggest liar.

In just about every discussion we have had you have lied about what I have said. Your own words condemn you.

Messiah and the apostles never ate unclean foods and never condoned the eating of unclean foods. That is a fact and since they didn't then I don't. But I never said you had to do anything.

This verse was written about you. Isa 66:17 "They that SANCTIFY THEMSELVES, and PURIFY THEMSELVES in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the Yahweh."

You are a perfect example of sin begetting sin. You are not my brother because you are a liar and a willful sinner. A little hear a little their and the more you get used to it the more you sin. But the teaching to others that sin is ok is where you condemn yourself.

I love Yahweh and His Law which is Christ. And all my imperfections and shortcomings are forgiven because I do. You apparently do not to your own destruction.

You are free to follow the dietary laws if you so choose,

but there is no requirement to follow the Mosaic Covenant including the dietary laws, to be a Christian. Do a study on the Covenants in the Old and New Testament (See Jeremiah 31:30-32, Luke 22:19-21, and Hebrews 8). Jesus' New Covenant clearly replaced the Mosaic Covenant. Also Paul instructed believers to not offend those who hold to the Mosaic Law dietary restrictions by eating prohibited foods in their presence. I don't wish to get into a long discussion on this matter but would encourage a thorough study of the Covenants. The Mosaic Covenant points the Old Testament believer towards the New Covenant which then replaced the Mosaic Covenant. (Note: In many older Bibles, the Old Testament and New Testament were alternatively referred to as the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.)


The new covenent

is based on better promises not better laws. Hebrews. Nothing in the New Testament of God's Covenant changes clean and unclean animals. They were divided as clean and unclean from the beginning and upheld in the Old and New Testaments. There are still clean and unclean. We were given the differences of clean and unclean for our benefit both physically and spiritually and to thumb our noses at that seems more than a little arrogant regardless of whether it is a matter of salvation or not.

Now for your assertions. Paul did no such thing. Show me where Paul said to not worry about clean and unclean. Paul talks about things sacrificed to idols and not offending vegetarians.

Even the Pharisees were never rebuked for keeping His Covenant Law. They were taken to task for ignoring aspects of the Law and for making up their own laws such as hand washing. But He never ever did away with His Covenant Law.

Messiah didn't come to do away with lawfulness but to show us how to be lawful. He was the perfect example of Righteousness and He kept the Law perfectly. So why do you and others try and rebuke me for doing as we are TOLD and trying to imitate Him.

It all boils down to whether you believe in what Scripture actually says or if you believe the traditions of Constantine.

If you are teaching Christmas, Easter, Sunday sabbath or even eating unclean among other things that supposed Christians do then you are not following Scripture because none are upheld nor advocated in Scripture. In fact they are an abomination to Christ and our Father.

I didn't mean to come across as rebuking you,

just sharing my understanding of Scripture.

In I Corinthians 10:25-28, it says

25 Eat anything that is sold in the meat market without asking questions for conscience’ sake; 26 for the earth is the Lord’s, and all it contains. 27 If one of the unbelievers invites you and you want to go, eat anything that is set before you without asking questions for conscience’ sake. 28 But if anyone says to you, “This is meat sacrificed to idols,” do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for conscience’ sake; (New American Standard Bible)

You are correct that Paul specifically mentions meat sacrificed to idols, but why doesn't "eat anything that is sold in the meat market" include unclean animals listed in the Old Testament? To me it seems that anything would include Old Testament unclean meat. The pagan Corinthians would surely have not been following the Old Testament law.

Then in Romans 14:20-21, Paul says

20 Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense. 21 It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles.

Here Paul specifically says "All things are indeed clean".

Again, it seems clear to me that Paul is saying that Gentile Christians are not required to follow the Old Testament dietary laws.


I go to the meat market

In Corinthians. I can see what I am buying whether it is clean or unclean. However I don't know if it is sacrificed to idols. But an idol is nothing so even if it is it means nothing so don't worry about it. UNLESS the person happily tells you that it is. That is what this passage is saying. It is talking about food sacrifices to idols.

In Romans Paul was not addressing clean and unclean. He was addressing those who preached a vegetarian diet. We have some of those same people here today who make the same argument against meats that God HAS CALLED CLEAN. But if I go to eat with them I have no problem forgoing meat at their table.

You have to remember that in the beginning everything was vegetarian in Eden. When man was kicked out then distinctions of what was proper food had to be determined. Not unlike the distinction between the tree of knowledge and the rest of the plants. But Adam and Eve ate it anyway.

Eating clean is a matter of obedience. Why would I purposefully eat unclean when I don't have to and especially when my Father has told me that their is a difference in clean and unclean? Why did he make that distinction from the beginning of the world? Why did He confirm that difference with Israel? And it was not retracted.

If all things "are clean" then why don't you come over for some roach egg and skunk bladder soup? Is that clean? I can think of any number of things that WE would deem unclean despite how Paul is translated. Or things some determine unclean but are not, such as certain locusts or beetles. I prefer to let my father determine what is clean.

We are free to eat as we wish but when He looks at us he sees who is set apart and peculiar among the nations. And I think how we eat is part of that obedience.

Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from ALL INIQUITY, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Who determines "GOOD WORKS"? Is that left up to us. If so then every atheist here is vindicated. I don't think so.

Yahshua bless.

I follow what you are saying but

to me it doesn't adequately answer my question.

What about I Cor. 10:27 If one of the unbelievers invites you and you want to go, eat anything that is set before you without asking questions for conscience’ sake.

From this verse it does appear to be saying that there are no restrictions on eating for a Christian.

Also, your comment about good works is confusing. See Ephesians 2:8-9

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Good works are the fruit of our salvation not the means to obtaining salvation, so no the atheist is not vindicated.


I'm sorry

I will try again. Please don't take offense. You are reading this from an indoctrinated point of view and need to read the entire chapter including the following verse that puts it in context without the preconditioned notions.

1Co 10:28 "But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:"

Things sacrificed to idols is the subject of Paul's response.

There is a reason GOD distinguished between clean and unclean and Paul can't change that. Nor does he try as he goes on to instruct the Corinthians to forgo the unclean in his second letter.

2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the UNCLEAN THING; and I will receive you,

So which verse is correctly interpreted? The one that contradicts GOD's word or the one that upholds God's word? Who do we serve?

John in Revelations also upholds the distinction of unclean well after Paul had written those responses. Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every UNCLEAN and hateful bird.

Lastly on the non believer bidding you to eat. Just as an example. Knowing what you know now, would you BID ME to a feast and offer unclean food? No one who knows me has done it yet. Whether any of it was sacrificed to idols, I don't know. :-)

I also think you are mistaken. Good works are not the fruit of salvation. Good works are the fruit of our Faith. We are offered salvation by His grace. Does that mean that everyone is saved? No. There first must be acceptance and then Repentance of Sin. Who determines what sin is? GOD. What is sin? Transgression of the Law.

1Jn 3:4-6 Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abides in him sins not: whosoever sins hath not seen him, neither known him.

If we are the ones who determine what sin is then everyone is vindicated because we have not sinned in our own minds. That's the point I was trying to make. But we know that is not true because there is absolute sin which is transgression of the law.

James 2:22 See thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Just curious. Is it just His dietary laws you disagree with or is it His Commandments and Holy Days as well?

Yahshua bless.

No offense taken, thanks for the response

But from what you are saying, 1 Cor. 10:27 verses was not translated accurately?... I'll look into it further when I am feeling better (got a nasty bug of some sort right now).

OK, good works are the fruit of our Faith... we are saved through Faith and by repenting of sin. No disagreement here.

I don't disagree with His commandments... I just hadn't heard of your point of view or understanding of the dietary laws so I thought I would ask a few questions while I had an opportunity to do so. Thanks... it's been an interesting discussion.


Thanks for your willingness to discuss.

I would like to make one more comparison.

One "Jewish" law says you cannot eat something like a cheese burger because you cannot mix meat and dairy. They have a whole set of regulations concerning the mixing of dairy and meat. They base this on one law that says "You shall not seethe a kid in it's mothers milk." Exo_23:19, 34:26 and Deu_14:21 Some will not even eat dairy and meat in the same sitting regardless of how it is prepared.

I am not Jewish and I don't hold to this type of dietary doctrine. I would not boil a kid in it's mother's milk but I have no problem eating dairy and meat. And apparently neither does GOD, His angels nor Abraham.

Gen 18:7 And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetched a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it. And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.

Bless you.

Do you

Believe that a Christian is supposed to keep the dietary restrictions of the old testament law?

Is using the name Jesus ok?

Should anyone celebrate Christmas?

You imply that if I don't eat the Jewish lawful foods I'm sinning. It may not be a direct statement that I must follow that law, but what you're saying is real Christians will follow the kosher laws.

I'm a pagan because I celebrate Christmas. Jesus is the most important part of Christmas to me and gives it all its meaning, but that's not enough for you, you release your venom on anything.

I've not quoted you directly, I've said plainly what you imply. That's not lying.

I have great affection for Christ in my heart, which he has given me. Not because I'm wise or learned or good. He is good, the only good.

Galatians chapter 2:11-15
11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party.[a] 13 And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?”

Peter ate with the Gentiles, do you suppose they were keeping the kosher laws? Paul says Peter was "living like a Gentile." Do you suppose that meant keeping the Kosher laws? Of course not, he was living in the freedom of Christ, released from the dietary restrictions of the law. This is just one point. Your theology, while yours to an extent is fine, but when you start saying that people aren't Christians and don't love the law because they don't keep it, then you've gone to far and Paul would yell at you and I know what he'd say. He'd say this, because he said it to the Galatians.

3 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by[a] the flesh? 4 Did you suffer[b] so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify[c] the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”[d] 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit[e] through faith.

The Apostles did not keep kosher their whole lives, they ate what was placed in front of them and gave thanks to God, see Romans chapter 14.

14 As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. 2 One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. 3 Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. 4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master[a] that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written,

“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confess[b] to God.”
12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

Do Not Cause Another to Stumble

13 Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. 14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. 15 For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. 16 So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.

20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. 21 It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.[c] 22 The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.[d]

These are matters that are personal and that is clear from scripture and you are wrong about the apostles keeping kosher and that is only one area you are wrong. But will contend with you no further, argue with paul if you like, I still maintain you are my brother and I have no animosity for you, only a prayer for you that you come to understand Grace. Paul, PAUL, just told you that EVERYTHING is INDEED CLEAN!!!! Peace.

One by one.

Yes. I believe the dietary laws were given for our benefit and to snub our nose at His advice of how to take care of our bodies is rebellion at best.

No. His Name is not Jesus. His Name IS Yahshua. My question to you is why use a false name when you know His true Name?

No. Christmas is false worship of paganism that is strictly prohibited.

My only implication concerning the dietary law is that it was given for a reason and clean and unclean were defined from the beginning and upheld throughout Scripture and there is no good reason to reject it. By not keeping the dietary law you subject yourself, at the very least, to poor health. Just as many of the laws were given for our benefit.

Pagan? You judge a tree by it's fruit. Scripture says keep the Ten Commandments and GOD's Holy Days through Faith in Him as a sign of our Faith. When you reject His Law and His Holy Days for pagan traditions then what fruit are you really producing?

OK. Let's be careful of what we imply. I will do the same.

I am in no way questioning your belief in the existence or goodness of Messiah. I am however rebuking the false worship that has crept into Christian worship.

Galatians. There is no reason to think that those Gentiles were serving Peter unclean foods. As a matter of fact Peter says himself that he never ate unclean and wouldn't during the equally misunderstood "sheet incident". Those Gentiles were converts to GOD's Covenant, they did not convert GOD to their beliefs.

The next two paragraphs are dealing with the ceremonial law. Simply put, He did not want people to break the law and sacrifice a dove or something to cover it since it just lead to more lawlessness. And those sacrifices did nothing to change their hearts to Righteousness. Through Faith by His grace we are to turn from lawlessness once and for all accepting His Sacrifice once and forever leaving the need for more sacrifice behind.

One day above another? He is talking about fasting not the Sabbath.

I do not pass judgement but by good judgement I try discern Scripture truthfully with help from the Spirit of Truth which is the Holy Spirit.

Everyone of us will bow and give an account for ourselves. Who do you think will find more favor, those who preach righteousness through faith or unrighteousness through faith? You see that sword cuts both ways.

I am not trying to cause anyone to stumble. Truth is truth and if someone stumbles at the truth then does that mean we should preach lies?

True nothing is unclean of itself. But things are unclean by GOD's word. Now you say do not put a stumbling block but if YOUR choice of food is the cause of stumbling then why do you accuse me? If you see me as "weak" then why do you insist on harping on the dietary laws? 21 It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.

Again you are wrong in that the apostles didn't eat "kosher". None of the verses you picked indicate that. Only from your point of view do you read that into it. And to be blunt about it Paul had no authority to eliminate any law and He surely didn't have authority to create new ones. Baptists say you can't drink and that is the kind of self proclaimed uncleanness Paul is talking about.

Now I have let you have your fun with the dietary laws and you jumped on it with both feet and put me in my place. :-) Now you answer some questions for me.

Why do you argue the dietary laws but refuse to address the false worship that certainly pertains to our salvation? Why do you argue in favor of pagan worship? Why is keeping unlawful and ungodly practices such as Christmas, Easter and Sunday along with normal Baptist rules such as no drinking or dancing so acceptable and easy yet keeping His Commandments and His Holy Days is so repugnant to you? What is so hard about keeping the Commandments, calling on His true Name, observing His Holy days or not eating pig?

What we say we believe is irrelevant because the fruit we bear shows who we believe in.

Peace to you too.

I will be happy

I will be happy to address that.

One holds one day as sacred and another holds a different day sacred, did you read the sections I posted? I worship none other than Jesus Christ on any day. Sooo.... there, that's taken care of.

I do drink wine now and again and I love to dance, sooo... ok, done there too. ha.

I'm sorry that you don't think God understands translation and languages. I don't find that a problem.

I don't find his holy days repugnant, I think it's cool to celebrate passover.

I agree about the fruit thing. ha. I think his commandments are good, as surely as he is.

Paul says that Peter "LIVED LIKE A GENTILE". What does that mean? Peter was either, acting like he would be unclean to eat with Gentiles, or that he had been eating unclean food. So, what of the laws, pertaining to eating with Gentiles. Do you think Jews shouldn't eat with us? Do you not eat with Gentiles? Didn't Jesus break the law when he told the people not to stone the woman caught in Adultery?

Paul just told you, NOTHING IS UNCLEAN. Jesus himself said, NOTHING that goes into a man can make him unclean!! It is what comes out. Clearly you think I'm not saved and I am concerned about your salvation as well, as paul said, Christ is lost to you if you start trying to live by law again. Geez, didn't you read what I posted?!?! You wanted scripture and I gave it and you just ignored it. I could say you have quite a lot of rotten fruit that you're bearing as well, but I'd rather not.

O my goodness

The holding a day above another is talking about FASTING, NOT the Sabbath.

It's not a matter of translation it is a matter of TRANSLITERATION. Find a foreign movie and put on the subtitles and you will see the difference between translation and transliteration. Names are NOT translated.

Read the whole chapter. Paul is addressing "vegetarians" in Romans and is addressing "things sacrificed to idols" in Corinthians. If I go to someones house I can tell what is clean and unclean but I can't tell if it is sacrificed to idols and He is saying that since an idol is nothing then don't make it an issue UNLESS they say "This is sacrificed to some idol." You can't take "nothing is unclean OF ITSELF" out of context and make that your argument.

I keep the dietary laws and I eat with all kinds of people who don't but I still eat with them and I eat clean only. So I, my wife and others are living proof that you don't have to eat unclean to eat with "gentiles". As far as I know I AM a gentile but I am not alone in my desire to eat a clean diet.

I hate to make the point as I'm sure you will resist it but Paul's writings are covering specific problems within certain assemblies and you cannot know exactly what questions he is answering because we don't have those letters. Add to that the problems with translations/translators and it becomes clear why everything must be tested against Old Testament teachings as Paul instructed Timothy. The New cannot contradict the old. Paul said "Test all things." Against what? OT Scripture that's what.

Yes I read what you posted. Yahshua said that DIRTY HANDS do not make a man unclean. Ritual washing of hands was a Pharisee law which He was rebuking, not clean and unclean foods. If you read the account in Luke He goes on to say "thus cleansing all foods." It doesn't say "making all things food." Only clean things are "food".

There are many ways to "live like a gentile" that goes against the false teaching of the Pharisees ("the Jews"), and I'm sure that is Peters hypocrisy Paul was addressing. Not that Peter was living lawlessly against GOD but against Jewish tradition. The other day I drank a beer with an atheist, which is NOT UNLAWFUL, but if certain Christians came around and I jumped up away from the table to appease them then I would be a hypocrite. Right?

If you think the apostles ate unclean because they were eating with gentiles then do you think Yahshua was sinning and condoning sin because He ate with sinners. No of course not. I think we have beat the dietary argument enough so let's stick to the more important matters. OK?

Let me address the salvation thing one more time. There are two resurrections. One for those who keep His testimony and His Law at His coming. 1Th 4:16 Mat 24:31 1Co_15:52 These are the saints. Then the final resurrection and judgement where people are judged by their works. Rev 20:12-15 Salvation is not a given but neither is death for those of the final judgement. You see works are important.
The question isn't who is saved but who will take part in the first resurrection to which He gives us specific qualifications.

Adultery? The whole point was that we have no business going around punishing people who don't keep His law when we ourselves are sinners. We are not judges so we cannot enforce laws but that doesn't mean we should become lawless. He also said that Moses law of divorce didn't excuse people from adultery yet His words fall on deaf ears with many Christians who have multiple marriages. How do you feel about that?

Lastly. Faith without works is dead. The Law is Good if it is kept with faith. Paul never preached against GOD's Law but He did speak out against ordinances of men and the law of punishment by men.

Did you know that Gentiles could be accepted and Jews could be cast out in the Old Testament as well as the New? They are two testaments of the same God, same Christ, same blessings and same punishments. The New Testament is not about a new God with new laws but a better end reward. Heb_8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon BETTER PROMISES.

I notice you still haven't addressed the weightier matters of false worship and I hope it is because you are seriously investigating and not just ignoring it.

I live by Faith. I keep the law through obedience of my Faith. I hope you can see the difference .


19 since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?”[a] (Thus he declared all foods clean.)


Maybe the last supper was

Oysters Rockefeller
Bacon wrapped shrimp
Filet Mignon with Blue Cheese
BBQ pork ribs