11 votes

Billy Graham’s grandson takes Christians to task: An interview with Tullian Tchividjian

I post this only after having a recent discussion with some fellow Evangelical Christians who are also my brothers in the love of Liberty, to help us all focus on things more important than all this political drivel we get so wrapped up in.

http://jonathanmerritt.religionnews.com/2013/10/02/tullian-t...




Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

I hope you are joking.

Sometimes it's hard to tell with you Granger.

I was making a point

Truth is funny.

A point that Messiah

who was perfect according every aspect of the law in every way was eating contrary to the law? I guess you can call that funny. But you can't call it truth. :-)

You missed my point

which was that the Messiah did not break any laws.

Oh, OK.

:-) I think.

Comedy

The Oysters thing was funny.

How can you say you repent of sin and continue sinning?

You can't have it both ways. And I have never said anything about who will or will not be saved.

Rom 6:1,2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Heb 10:26 "For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,"

Baptists, go figure. "You don't need to keep GOD'S law, you just need to keep Baptist law." That is religion and that is what you preach.

"How can you say you repent of sin and continue sinning?"

Sin is not simply the breaking of commandments, which you seem to think that there are many of. Sin is simply existing in a state of imperfection. It is literally impossible for a human being, even a Christian who has been granted forgiveness, not to sin every single split second of his existence on this Earth. We will not quit sinning until we are resurrected into a state of perfection.

You are sad and I feel sorry for you.

Where you get your doctrine from I don't know but it is not biblical.

That's all I can say to you about that.

You are no help

Your words have no substance and no definition of grace.

I disagree

Peace.

He agrees

He agrees with everything you just said, and so do I.

Does he?

JM: "One criticism that has been leveled against the church is that we’ve been more concerned with behavior modification than with grace. Am I correct in saying that you believe this is a valid criticism?"

"There’s no question that for far too long the church has been primarily concerned with external change..., somewhere along the way we’ve come to believe that this whole thing is about behavioral modification and personal moral improvement."

By his very first statement he suggests that it is not about moral improvement or behavioral change. That is wrong and deceptive.

It seems to be that many think that we don't have to change for GOD but we can change GOD to suit ourselves. If that is how people think then they don't understand grace, salvation or the purpose of Christ's sacrifice.

If not for His grace we would not have salvation but if we do not change then that grace is nothing. Why would He call sinners to repentance if He didn't expect them to change?

Rom 12:2 "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye TRANSFORMED by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

Do you know what this means? Mat 9:13 "But go ye and learn what that means, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." I'll bet most people get it wrong because of the very deceptive views that this guy presents in this article.

Falsehood is usually easy to spot and rebuke. Falsehood mixed with truth is not so easy. But it should still be exposed. This guy doesn't even know who Christ is.

I'm sorry

I wish I had the time to write a response worthy of your post, but I don't. You make these judgments, of who is and who isn't a Christian as if you're Christ yourself. Same thing you did to me, if I disagree with you about the law in any way, you immediately say I'm apostate, that this guy doesn't even know who Christ is. In other words, he's not saved, he's not a Christian.

Let me make one point please.

But first, contrary to popular belief I learn and gain better understanding any time I discuss Scripture because I definitely don't "know it all" as some have accused me of portraying myself.

Our Father loves us and he gave His Law out of that love. The Law is our tutor to teach us how to associate with Him and how to associate with our fellow man. In the Old Testament you had sin offerings but the offerings could never remove the sin especially when the offender continued in sin and simply made sin offerings to cover it. Add to that the Pharisees making up their own laws and you see what happens. Disobedience.

Yahshua came to be an example to us and in that example He didn't break His own Law but He established it fully while rebuking the laws of the Pharisees and setting the stage to put an end to blood sacrifices (which do not save) and take His place as High Priest. By His grace He presented Himself as the final sacrifice so that through faith we would repent of our ways and start living by His example. Not continuing in sin and covering it with sacrifice any more but to let His sacrifice change and renew us so that we could forsake the cycle of sin and sacrifice. Through Him become that perfect man where His Law is a joy written on our hearts.

Because of error and subversion many can't discern between The Commandments (Law), the Priesthood (Law), the ceremonial Law, the sacrificial law or the Pharisees laws of tradition and the ordinances of MEN. This is one of the biggest causes of error and avenues of manipulation. Christianity has thrown the baby out with the bath water.

As a result the church is the same today as Judaism then. Instead of blood sacrifice for sin there is confessional. Instead of Jehovah*, Adoni and Elohim there is Jesus, Lord and God. They have made up their own rules but to an even wider extent because they have gone so far as to change the Holy Days.

Instead of His weekly Sabbath and the Holy Days of Unleavened, Weeks, Trumpets, Atonement and Tabernacles (which are still being fulfilled) there is SUNday worship, Ishtar and Saturnalia which come solely from outside of Scripture.

Should I ignore these things or proclaim them? Does any sane person believe that He is any more pleased with the church today and what is being taught than He was with Judaism back then? If I teach against His Law then doesn't that make me Lawless in itself?

Peace.

*The Jews never said Jehovah but in the way His Name was oppressed it made it possible for the name Jehovah to come into existence.

I am merely looking at the fruit.

The fruit of the Spirit is not sin. Also you do not have to be Christian to be "saved".

Mat 24:12 And because iniquity (lawlessness) shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Rom_10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

As you can see the church becomes lawless and apostate. It's not totally a matter of not 'Keeping the Law' but just as much of a matter of teaching lawlessness as righteousness which the "church" is doing today.

Now you talk as if you are saved but Scripture is clear that if you do not partake of the ROOT and bear fruit worthy as such then you will be cut off.

At some point you/we have to look at ourselves and what we do and ask is it because of pride and tradition or is it actually Scripturally sound? I did and my eyes were truly opened and I got off the milk and started eating the meat of salvation.

Are you saved? No. Will you be saved. That depends on your works. Faith without works is dead after all.

Mat_7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Mat 5:17-19 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Rom_3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

1 John_5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Ti_3:16 All scripture(OLD TESTAMENT) is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

I am not here to judge(condemn) but I do see the apostate teachings of the church today and I will speak out against it with my last breath. Lawlessness is apostasy. That's not a matter of debate.

Are we perfect through the law? No. That is where grace comes in but if we continually reject the law what then?

Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,

This is what the "Jews" were doing and what was being rebuked. Sinning because they could just sacrifice a dove and call it even and do the same thing next week. Do you see how clear it is? The law without faith did nothing for those people. And the sacrificial law did nothing to eliminate their sins.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

You should also open your mind to the fact that the King James is not infallible and that no New Testament writings can contradict Old Testament Scripture.

Peace.

What I believe

is the most encouraging about this revelation, besides his following of Dr Kennedy's method of teaching the Gospel, is he must support Kennedy's stance on Zionism.

Kennedy was an early founder in the modern evangelical movement of Christianity, along with Robertson, Fallwell, et all. However, when the others began to preach false teachings of the Scriptures in relation to Israel (in other words teaching from the apostate Scofield Reference Bible), he called them out in an open letter written from his seminary. People should have all their 'brainwashed' Christian Zionist friends read this letter. http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/wdoor.html

Grace

I have recently been giving some thought and study to this word grace and have received some illuminating insights. It is of course central to the doctrines of the entire Christian Church from the beginning and Ephesians 2:8-9 was the spur that caused Martin Luther to leave the Roman Catholic tradition of salvation through religious observance of the sacraments that were called "channels of grace".

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Nevertheless, whether due to a defect in my hearing or a lack in the Church teaching on the subject, probably a combination of both, I have suffered from an assumption about grace that is imperfect and recent contemplation on it has helped to rectify the problem, to some extent at least. Central to my confusion was the assertion that grace means merely "unmerited or undeserved favour". This latter word became rooted in my mind and linked to the idea of my total depravity which is supported by many texts in scripture relating to our being born in sin and shaped in iniquity.

"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." (Psalm 51:5)

On a conscious level I believed without doubt that our Father had saved me by grace and needed no help from me to do so. On a more subconscious level however I was still convinced that I was irretrievably sinful and it was here that the faith that I was saved by God's grace appeared to be lacking. It was here that the battle was being waged between what I knew to be true and what had been planted in my mind as I say either because my hearing was defective or the teaching of the Church was emphasising my undeserving condition and de-emphasising the sovereign power of God's grace.

In other words I was struggling with a misapprehension because the true meaning of grace had not penetrated to the most profound level of my being, my heart, where it could take root and grow. Instead, the word of my lack of merit, my sinful condition that did not deserve God's favour is what had taken root and grown and had brought about the continual struggle within my breast. It is my guess that many Christians suffer from the same condition which is what the Christian teacher Oswald Chambers called "spiritual unreality" and which A.W. Tozer mentions specifically in his book "The Pursuit of God" as being the woeful condition of the Christian Church.

This is at least is my preliminary diagnosis and the Spirit is presently dealing with me to destroy that wicked root and replace it with His Truth. An article I read some months ago connecting grace to the sovereignty of God sparked off this present study on my part and it surprises me that I had not made the connection prior to reading that article. This was no doubt because of the assumption that I had made, or had been planted in my mind, about the meaning of grace and I was being prevented thereby from re-examining that assumption. There is much that the Spirit has shown me so far in the depths of my being that will take time to manifest in writing as our Father gives me the grace to do so. One word I can share and that is:

Grace is the Love of God in Action, the Enabling Love of God and the Empowering Love of God. It is the Divine Companion of Faith and Hope which are planted in the human heart by Grace leading us to praise and worship the Author of our Salvation in Spirit and in Truth.

May the Grace of our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ be with you now and forevermore.

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

THis is a good point: its relationship to the law is often....

misunderstood. The either / or paradigm has confused the church for centuries.

We either see the law as a means for salvation, sanctification, and glory... and become Legalists, who keep their fences around the Law instead of keeping the Law itself.
or

We misunderstand the purpose of the law, and see it as having no value, or even negative value....and become Anti- Rule of Law, at worst and libertine at best.

Paul avoids both traps, acknowledges both the Law as good, and our inability to carry it out. (this is what Romans 7 & 8 are all about).

Both the legalists and the lawless ones are addressed in Romans. Romans 1 & 6 addresses the lawless. The legalists are addressed in Romans 2 & 3. Chapters 4 & 5 address justification by faith and the Law's purpose. (as do 6 & 7)

"Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern." ~~C.S. Lewis
Love won! Deliverance from Tyranny is on the way! Col. 2:13-15

Nice emphasis here

I really like the emphasis on action you bring up here. But we would still say (see if you agree with me here) that the Grace of God is given freely. So his active, positive, work in our lives is given as a sovereign gift. Our account is settled, God is working to do and etc as the Scripture says. I'm not and neither is Tullian suggesting, not taking action ourselves, only that God doesn't need our actions to balance the books, our actions are more for our neighbors and to bring him Glory. He doesn't need our works, but uses them, he is the hand that works them through us and they should never cloud our view of the great grace of Him who gives to us.

Yes.

The charismata, the gifts of Grace, are the means whereby He works His works in and through us. They are distributed by the Spirit as and when He wills. He is the only worker of righteousness from beginning to end. All our self ordained works, even "good" works, are completely worthless, indeed they are unrighteous. This is the message He has communicated to us from the beginning. In time even the gifts of Grace will end when the perfect has come.

His purpose is to change us utterly and completely into the perfect image of God, just like the firstborn Son of God who is our forerunner and who has entered into the Most Holy Place and calls us to follow Him therein. We then do by nature what God requires of us. This demands our total surrender to Him. We must be crucified with Christ, so that we no longer live but Christ lives in us and the life we lead now we live by the faith of the Son of God who loved us and gave Himself for us. This is the Faith He gives to us by Grace. This is the Great Faith. The faith we have naturally is the little faith that is of no value at all in the Kingdom since flesh and blood cannot inherit that Kingdom.

The works of God are what Jesus did continuously throughout His life here on Earth and this is why the Pharisees and scribes were baffled and offended by His "working" on the Sabbath. These are the works of Rest. We are commanded to rest from our own works on the Sabbath which is the Rest of God. We then do only what we see our Father doing and speak only what our Father has taught us to say. The Sabbath Day is the only day for which there is no evening and morning, it is without end. It is the Day of the Lord.

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

Word!

Praise God my brother! Right on! Feels so good to hear the word preached that way, the body needs to hear and loves to hear it!

Just Beautiful

"he is the hand that works them through us "... I've always believed that to be true.

I live my life by the grace of God.

We lucky few

We all do, right brother? That's why the Atheist is in so much trouble, he rejects the Grace he receives daily.

Nice Post Dave

..I always find "food for thought and reflection" in your posts, and I'm sure others do also.
Love is action....not a silly greeting-card with "pre-printed" vague generalities.....Action.

"Action speaks louder than words".....words being those in the abovementioned card.

"Faith without works is nothing"....So our love...and our faith...are only truly expressed by our "actions" every day.

Which leads me to:
"But for the Grace of God, go I";
a testimonial of sorts that attests to an expression of gratitude for the grace that allows one to do His work, by expressing our love, in our everyday actions.
Yes, I may "miss the mark" from time to time.....but it's been quite a journey, and it will continue....."by the grace of God".
Thanks David, God Bless Ya!

"Beyond the blackened skyline, beyond the smoky rain, dreams never turned to ashes up until.........
...Everything CHANGED !!