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Stefan Molyneux and Seth Andrews, host of The Thinking Atheist, discuss breaking free from religion.

Stefan Molyneux and Seth Andrews, host of The Thinking Atheist, discuss breaking free from religion, the social costs of accepting atheism, the predatory targeting of the young, religion as child abuse, the worship of ignorance, the benefits of religion and advice to religious parents.


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Im vowing to never reply in a religous

discussing on the DP again. Why? because I'v come to the point that no matter what your beliefs are or are not It is an attempt to divide The Liberty Movement. WE need to stand together more now than ever. I have come to the conclusion that these religious posts are nothing but expressions of Pride.

His name is Edward Snowden

What is Capitalism?
http://youtu.be/yNF09pUPypw

The Reason Rally

Coexist

If there is no God then just live your life and move along.

Atheist mantra: "There is no God and I hate him!"

"Once you become knowledgeable, you have an obligation to do something about it."- Ron Paul

Atheist mantra: "There is no

Atheist mantra: "There is no God and I hate him!"

How could someone hate something that does not exist?

How do you know that god is male?

I feel sad that in this day and age people still feel the need to believe in something that was originally an explanation for things they did not understand.

Right

you missed the point. If God (male or female whichever you prefer) doesn't exist then why battle him so much.

You know what I do with things that don't exist, I don't acknowledge them. They don't bother me. I don't fight with people on message boards about them. But you feel sad about it.

"Once you become knowledgeable, you have an obligation to do something about it."- Ron Paul

How would anything evolve?

Without dissenting voices that go against the grain?

I only dissent

against things that I actually think exist though.

"Once you become knowledgeable, you have an obligation to do something about it."- Ron Paul

It doesn't matter if something is real or not

As long as people believe.

Consider the ancient tribes that worshipped the sun, the moon, etc. They sacrificed people. They would sacrifice a child if born as twins because they considered one evil and one good. Are you saying someone speaking out against that religion is being illogical because they're arguing something that doesn't exist?

Atheists aren't mad at God. They're mad at the idea of God and everything it entails.

Not really that simple

Not really that simple slugnuts. Your delusions affect me (and my liberty) directly.

1) There is no god, but I have to live in a world where people who believe in god make the laws I have to follow and restrict my freedoms based on their delusional and immoral belief system.

2) I have to live in a world where people who believe in your god have in the past, and may again in the future wage wars/torture/murder people like me.

3) I have to live in a world where thiests constantly give credit to their imaginary friend for everything good that happens, instead of the humans who actually did the work, and accuse me of being responsable for everything that is wrong in the world because I don't believe in their myths.

4) I have to live in a world where representitives of your mythology knock on my door several times a month and threaten me with eternal torture if I don't start believing in nonsense.

5) I have to live in a world where if a Christian threatens me with eternal torture if I don't see things his way; he is just "spreading the good word!" But if I try to explain to him why I don't believe in god, I am: "Hateful, blind, and want to persecute & "mock" christianity because of my evil meaningless existance."

6) Athiests are constantly under attack by chrisitans in nearly every aspect of our lives because chrisitans hate the feeling of rejection they get that we won't share in their insanity. They are threatened that they have no answers to anything we ask and become hostile when we try to ask for proof. They lie and say things like they "love" us when infact they are salavating at the idea that we will end up in their god's torture chamber for all of our "mockery." Im not sure when "mockery" was deemed okay to punish by eternal torture, but then, christians are sadisitc and highly immoral. No one would stand for this if an earthly dictator was doing it, but I guess if that dictator has magical powers its okay?

Im not an athiest beause I don't "want" to believe in a giant country club in the sky where I can be with my loved ones forever. Id love for their to be a heaven. I just don't believe it. Get over it.

While you're at it, watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j8ZMMuu7MU&list=HL1391046191...

Phxarcher87's picture

You are a punk

You should be thankful that God fearing men, who understood natural law created a system where you can believe whatever you want.

Hitler, Stalin, and Mao created atheist government regimes where over 150million people have been gassed tortured executed and starved. Your eyes are so closed to think that religions people would kill you over a Godless group of people. You are a leach who enjoys the benefits put in place by God fearing men.

Oh and go tell the Christians who are being slaughtered in the middle east they are scared of being rejected you swine.

THE CLASS OF CITIZENS WHO PROVIDE AT ONCE THEIR OWN FOOD AND THEIR OWN RAIMENT, MAY BE VIEWED AS THE MOST TRULY INDEPENDENT AND HAPPY.
James Madison

What im grateful for is that

What im grateful for is that "god fearing" men had nothing to do with the system of law in the nation where I live. If "god fearing" men had, I might get stoned to death for working on Sunday, as god commanded. I might have my baby's head dashed against the stones and my older daughter taken as a slave as your ilk kill my wife and I every time a christian moves into my neighborhood; as the bible commands. Your twisted cult did not create freedom. "The priest has ever been the enemy of liberty" said Thomas Jefferson... the man who actually DID create our system.

Im not a leach who enjoys the "benifits" put in place by "god fearing men" im a lucky individual who, thanks to the political savy of reasoning men, happens to have be born in the tiny fraction of human history when my kind aren't being burned and tortured by "god fearing men."

Hitler, Stalin and Mao didn't create "atheist" governments, they created governments based on communist and facist DOGMA which is identical to religious dogma in every way. Both are systems where people are commanded to believe in entities which have super powers, promise impossible things, and use fear and execution to keep their peasants in line. The application of reason and criticle thinking, such as athiests like to use, dispells both quite easily.

As for the christian people being slaughtered in the middle east, they are being slaughtered by other religious lunitics. What's new? Is there some reason that the cult of psycopaths who used to burn women at the stake for the crime of thinking or being attractive when they actually "had" political power should be suprised to find another group of religious lunitics visiting horrors on others today when "they" hold political power? That's what religious people in positions of power do. Murder, rape and torture.

I know what would happen to me if this was a theocracy, so don't cry about how oppressed christians are in the world. It was your christian pals running the Neocon evangelical republican party that gave a green light for our fascist government to invade the middle east which resulted in radicalizing the muslims to start butchering native christians. Do you think the muslims over there don't see that all the US and colition soldiers who are kiling their families are wearing crosses? For many Americans, including most of the neo-tea party, our foreign policy is a holy war for Isreal. So don't call me swine for the horrors in the world that YOUR dumbass religion has caused and perpetuated.

We wouldn't even have collectivist tyranny on earth if stupid, brainwashed people didn't indoctrinate their children to subjegate themselves before mythical arbitrary authority figures who make impossible promises, horrible threats, all without requiring one ounce of actual proof. YOU and every other enemy of criticle thinking who brainwashes cosmic monarchy into impressionable young minds are responsable for all of this shit, including your dead christian pals in the middle east. Your faith and those like it are what plants the seeds of insanity that lets collectivism take root.

Phxarcher87's picture

What a man

does in the name of religion does not define the religion. Just like what a scientist does in the name of science does not define science.

Why don't you stick me on the team with dr. paul instead of the neocon team because he is the christian who preaches peace and liberty, and calls out bs on swine every chance he gets.

I'm sorry for whatever happened to you growing up it's not your fault.

THE CLASS OF CITIZENS WHO PROVIDE AT ONCE THEIR OWN FOOD AND THEIR OWN RAIMENT, MAY BE VIEWED AS THE MOST TRULY INDEPENDENT AND HAPPY.
James Madison

I didn't place you in the

I didn't place you in the company of "turn-the-other-cheek" christians like Dr Paul because the subject line of your thread opens up with you calling me a punk, fits in "leach" in the middle and ends with calling me swine. That doesn't seem particularly Paulish to me. Frankly the immediate hostility without addressing anything I said strikes me more as the sort of christian that, given political power, would have slapped me in thumbscrews and twisted a heresy confession out of me in darker days for daring to question your insipid religion.

The things I listed are not what men did in defiance to your religion to give it a bad name; they are the things your religion specifically commands them to do, and if you aren't doing them, you are not a christian. In fact, those two heinous examples are directly out of the 10 commandments. You know, the WORD OF GOD which HE ETCHED INTO STONE?

Also your religion "is" defined by the actions of men, because men wrote it, and men have carried out its brutality for a thousand years. Further it is judged by the actions of men, because no one actually reads the bible. 99% of christians are utterly illiterate of their own mythology, and know only what their pastors and popular fiction tell them about it. Really the only thing that the majority of christians truly master is blind obediance to arbitrary authority based on faith without need for reason or logic to arbitrate their beliefs. But then, that's rather the point isn't it? That's why christianity is one of the best forms of peasant control ever devised by wicked men.

For example, you don't know your own 10 commandments. You falsely believe they are what you've heard your pastor and Hollywood films describe. The actual biblical 10 commandments have nothing to do with what you think you know and you'd probably be shocked to hear them. Of course you'd block it out immediately and compartmentalize the information away in the same manner you brush aside facts and logic that challenge your "faith." So since the infinitesimally tiny fraction of christians who actually read the bible either become atheist, or complete apologist zealots with no more ability to grasp reason, what exactly "are" we to judge it on if not what men say and do since its all most people know?

In fact, its probably lucky that you can define it by actions, because the christians of today who don't actually practice the christian religion are vastly more gentle than they would be if they actually did follow their primitive war god's commands. Modern christians are actually "helping" your mythology. If left to its own merits rather than the lies of priests, the bible would be known as a savage and brutal book which showcases a cosmic blood-thirsty monarch who engages in universal surveillance, grants no rights to his peons, considers women to be livestock who shouldn't speak, and liberally engages in genocide, murder and torture.

The new testament is no better. The main theme of the book is that we are guilty of crimes someone else committed, and we can only be redeemed because of a human sacrifice which is supposed to plague us with guilt. Not only did I not ask to have someone die in my place for some strange crime I didn't commit but am somehow responsible for, but I'm left asking, what kind of coward could accept this? I don't need a scape goat to suffer in my place, unasked. It also begs the question, what kind of lesson is it for our children that we can flush personal responsibility down the toilet and be forgiven for our crimes because there was a human sacrifice to pay for what we did in our place. In what way does the horrific mutilation, torture and execution of an innocent man absolve a criminal of his crimes? The entire story is immoral beyond comprehension. God builds us flawed, plants an apple he knows Adam and Eve will eat before he places it there, then damns the entire human race forever until the debt is paid for by the horrific torture and death of his own child. WTF!?

Christians with political power are ruthless monsters. Perhaps not all of them, but in a system built on tyranny, murderer trumps the pick-pocket, so we know who will take power. An example im fond of is the story of Hypathia who was a female roman philosopher, atheist and astrologer. Christians, having recently taken political power in Alexandria, followed the bible word for word and executed her by tearing the skin off her body while she was alive with shards of clay pots. Why? Because she was a female teacher who spoke and thought. These things are forbidden to women in the bible and punishable by gruesome, torturous death. How about we start enforcing the bible today! There are lots of female teachers in America, and think of the boost we'd give to the pottery industry!

Jesus promoted that slaves should be subordinate to their masters and introduced the most immoral and brutal concept in the bible: Hell. At least the old testament monster only killed you and you escaped him in death. Jesus burns you until the end of time. Jesus was also a socialist that preached all men should sell their worldly possession and pool the wealth together for each other to share. Hey on that note, you're right, we do live under christian philosophy... now.

So I think its really better for you and the rest of the "god-fearing-men" out there if we "do" judge your religion on the actions of men rather than the religion itself. Men like Dr. Paul might actually redeem it a little by taking the good parts (what few there are) and leaving out volumes of evil.

Science on the other hand actually "can" be judged on its own merits, and not the actions of men. And that's good because it is currently being turned into a joke that is nearly indecipherable from religion. Weather its climate change or cosmology, science has become mythology based on mathematical nonsense, computer models based on false parameters that have nothing to do with observable facts, and politics; girded with hard-headed dogma that blocks out any challenges to "established theory" in order to protect the livelihoods and degrees of a modern "flat-earth" crowd who refuse to hear any challenge to out-dated and debunked myths. They block actual science in order to protect their careers, text-books and TV documentaries, or else push political agendas.

What happened to me growing up was that in church camp, I saw people going bat-shit crazy, speaking in tongue like a horde of mental patients because of a fog that drifted into our camp which the pastors were proclaiming a miracle of God. Being ever a skeptic, I went around behind the cabins and found the fog machine. The pastor caught me, guilted me into silence as children needed "help" developing strong faith to protect them against evil. Who was I to turn them away from God? As a child I brushed it under the carpet of my compartmentalized "faith-based" mind because I still believed the lie that faith was good. That christianity was good, and I was too afraid to question god's plan.

I didn't bother at the time to ask why, if God was granting all these kids the ability to speak in the language of heaven (besides me who had to fake it to get the mob off me), he couldn't have produced some actual miraculous fog. It didn't cross my mind why God was perfectly okay with letting these @#$%ing fraud pastors trick children, and went ahead with his magic language spell anyway, despite that it was inspired by dishonest hucksters. God works in mysterious and dishonest ways? Either that or the "miracle" of tongues (when its not faked) is nothing more than a mass hysteria inducing placebo brought about by desperation and group reinforcement and delusion. That's where my money's at.

However that revelation stuck like a splinter in my mind and actually proved to be one of the things that, in combination with reading the bible and being shocked at the brutality, immorality and evil, proved instrumental in finally forcing a collision between my reasoning, skeptical mind, and my faith-drenched religions mind. In such a collision, only one side of the compartmentalized brain can survive, and lucky for me, reason turned out to be the stronger.

I remember the exact moment of my epiphany, at 19 years old, I was sitting at a restaurant trying to rationalize the horrible crap I just read in the bible earlier. A passage about god commanding his Israelites to invade the locals, then dash their baby's heads against the stones while their parents watched before stoning them to death, and then describing the ways one should treat the daughters they take as sex slaves from the massacre. Page after page of brutal horrible shit. My mind ran through excuse after excuse as I tried to rationalize it, and I could feel myself wanting to internally avoid the topic, but I KNEW what I was reading was wrong. Next came a strangely brief internal struggle against a lump of fear in my throat where I forced myself to actually consider these things in a way I never had before. Suddenly, it hit me like a truck, and I actually said out-loud, drawing stares from those around me: "It's all bullshit." I was instantly free of my enslavement.

So please, don't apologize, it was the best thing that could have happened to me. I apologize it didn't happen to you too. Perhaps some day you'll find the mental fortitude to question your faith and see reason triumph over insanity.

I have to disagree with some of your claims

I'll go number by number.

#1 People who are atheists as well as those who profess to believe in god are making laws restricting your freedom. Your problem is with the State, not with theists, per se.

#2 Same as above. Wars, torture, murder have been committed by people who profess to believe in god as well as those who don't.

#3 This does not infringe on your liberty. People have the right to believe what they want.

#4 I think you have a misunderstanding about what the word "threaten" means. The people who knock on your door are not threatening violence or initiating violence. They believe that you will go to hell if you don't accept their religion. So what. You may disagree but they are acting consistent with the non-aggression principle.

#5 That's life. People disagree. Again, no violence or threat of violence is being initiated.

#6 You are not forced to become a Christian. You may or may not agree with what they say or how they say it, but proselytizing is part of free speech.

You're confused between spiritual matters and temporal ones.

1) it sounds at times like I

1) it sounds at times like I have a specific problem with christianity, but that's not true. I have a problem with "religon" in general. To that point, I should point out that to me, "Statism" is simply another form of religion where, instead of god being the focus of worship, dogmatic political philosophy is the idol of worship. So those statist zealots passing laws to restrict my freedom are no differant to me than the evangelicals doing it. There are no "athiests" restricting my freedom, save for some of the political elite who may or may not be athiest, but are certainly criminals. Certainly no libertarian athiests.

2) Same as above, though I should add, it is the mindset that accepts arbitrary authority on faith without demanding reason and logic that allows these people to have positions of power. A child's mind, conditioned to worship a god they will never meet, who holds absolute power over his life and death and who maintains a 100% universal police state is already prepared and made ready to accept a simliar earthly dictator as "normal." The faith based mind is most dangerous thing to liberty. It is the soil in which collectivist dictatorships can take root. While less and less people are christian every year (as the cartoonish and ridiculous myths in the bible are exposed via the internet), the number of "faithful" hasn't decreased at all. Differance is that many are replacing "god" with "government." The states is probably more dangerous. The thiest is the enabler, but at least they "often" let their god do the torturing "after" we die. The Statist enables their government to do it while we live.

3) People can believe as they like, and I have no right to stop it, however I firmly believe it does infringe upon my liberty, even if indirectly for all the reasons I listed above. Its a sickness in the species that only reason can cure. Im not going to hold my breath.

4) Nice Christians are trying to "save" me from nothing. Most Christians delight in the delusion that im going to burn forever for daring to mock their mytholoy. I don't apperciate either. Its not the individuals themselves, but the primitive superstision that turns otherwise reasonable people into lunitics that makes me mad. I hate that 80%+ of Americans are okay with the fact that their cosmic overlord is going to eternally torture almost everyone on earth,including their loved one... and they are okay with this. It makes me sad and afraid to know there are that many weak-minded cowards who won't stand up against obvious and monsterous evil, not even in thought. Is it any wonder our government is getting away with murder and torture when the overwhelming majority of our people are already conditioned from birth to accept this evil? How easily we could become North Korea with a people like that.

5) The stage is being set through this mindset for horrific violence. Humanity hasn't changed and we all know what the world looks like wherever thiests have complete political power, including christians. It can only be combated with reason however, which is why I choose to speak out.

6) I am not forced "now" in this tiny sliver of human history. The truth is, we are always one "upheavel" away from that ending however. I never take for granted that this illusion of civility we have today is going to last, and I know that in local potlics, even among libertarians, I am vastly outnumbered by the "faithful." I have no doubt that the next "revolution" could end in a theocracy.

Also, spiritual mindsets directly impact and shape temporal actions. To divorce the two is to divorce cause and effect. What you "believe" is "right" will influence what you want to see more of on earth. For the politically active, this "will" impact my life. Seeing as what most Americans view as the perfect utopia is a cosmic monarchy ruled by an all powerful king who grants no rights and keep a 100% surveilance state, and who arbitrarily rewards and destroys on a whim... I don't have high hopes for freedom in a nation where the vast majority of politically active people are either christian, or statist.

You have more

You have more time to type than me, that's clear so I'll say this succinctly.

You say:

I have to live in a world where people who believe in your god have in the past, and may again in the future wage wars/torture/murder people like me.

I say, so what? If your world view is right, your life is utterly worthless. You are no more important than a piece of grass, you have the same single celled organism ancestor and no moral ground as space dust to indict any other world view of wrong doing. Your words are the words of an animal, simply the sounds made by your DNA speaking. No more important than a wolf's howl are your most prized and deeply held beliefs. In short, the more you argue for the importance of your words, the more foolish you become.

Oh really? If you found out

Oh really? If you found out tomorrow that there was no god, would you suddenly consider your children meaningless? Would you cease to love them immediatly and consider them random partacles that you could care less if they lived or died?

The fact that you need a make-believe king im order to derive meaning in your life would be just a sign of weakness if it where true, but its not. We make meaning because of the bonds of love we form with other people, not because of the delusions we fall victim too.

My family is not worthless because they have worth to me and others. I am not worthless because I have worth to them. The only thing I can figure is worthless is people's hate-filled zealotry that serves no purpose other than to alienate, divide and cheapen human life by equating it something that only has value when serving a cosmic tyrant.

Wow

Could you be more hostile? Ha.

We've already had this discussion, we have not changed our viewpoints, as I said, if there was no God, my children would be diminished in my eyes actually and many people DONT love their children unconditionally. So your emotional arguments are ridiculous. We see people abuse and even hate their children quite regularly. In addition to that, your children would matter almost nothing to me, to starve yours so mine could live would be no big deal, as is, I would starve yours now to feed mine and feel terrible about it. It doesn't change the fact that you're just a spec of meaningless dust barking at me, but only in your own naturalist world view.

Hostile? That wasn't

Hostile? That wasn't hostile. The threat you're feeling is the weakness of your worldview being challanged by a rational you cannot defend against. Pretending im hostile is just a way for you to hide from the truth, so you don't have to think.

So there's parents who don't love their kids. So? Did I, at any point say that the world wasn't filled with criminals, misfits and tyrants who have no respect for logic, reason or respecting the rights of others? Have you ever heard of a society without criminals? It isn't the scum of society who forges the future. Its those capable of leading with reason.

Did you tell your kids you only love them because there's a Flying Spagetti Monster? They must be proud. Of course that isn't true, it just a sad attempt to stick to your guns when you know its a lie in your heart. You'd love your kids even, no, esspecially if you were an athiest.

When it comes to us starving each other's children to keep our own alive, I would expect nothing less from either of us. Afterall, we all must work toward our own long term self interests. If there was no other way, I would do anything for my girls.

On the other hand, given a hard world filled with preditors and the prospect of starvation for both of us and our respective kids, I bet we'd both find it benificial to band together to help each other because in the end, it'd be the absolute best chance we'd have of safeguarding our own loved ones from starvation. Logically, it just wouldn't do either of us any good to work as adversaries when we and our families would both prosper better as a community. That's what reasoning people do. Those incapable of reason rely on violence, but a parasite can only feed on so many hosts before it starves, or in the case of libertarian hosts who are armed to the teeth, the parasite can't feed at all.

Love

Love it when people claim to be rational. Good luck amoeba.

To a mind that cannot

To a mind that cannot comprehend reason, I imagine you do. Take the tail off a monkey, and he thinks he's the center of the universe.

If you're Christian, the next

If you're Christian, the next time you're feeling "persecuted" by us mean athiests, think of this video.

"If athiests acted like Christians."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pwwvBygoFA

^^

Largest Christian Persecution in Human History resulted in thousands of deaths.

Largest Atheist persecution in History resulted in Hundreds of millions of deaths.

I will take my chances with Christian persecution.

State worship is not athiesm.

State worship is not athiesm. Its collectivism just like religeon. Its worship of a ridiculous entity who promises impossible things and is founded on irrational and cartoonish concepts that any reasoning person wouldn't believe with a small amount of criticle thinking. Stalin wasn't telling people to not believe in impossible things and let reason and logic guide their lives. He was telling them to blindly worship and obey the all-powerful, all loving STATE.

But lets do it your way. Lets pretend that communists were all free thinking athiests who served Stalin because the argument for communism was compelling and rational (smirk). Stalin killed what, 30, 40 million people?

Setting aside those who died in the crusades and those currently dying in religous conflict; How many billions of people are currently and forever burning in your god's hell because they didn't think there was a god/picked the wrong god/picked the wrong version of your god? Id rather die in a labor camp from starvation, or from a firing squad than to be tortured forever, simultaniously being burned and raped by demons in your god's evil cosmic prison camp.

I win, you loose. God is the largest douche mankind ever dreamed up and easly outdid every earthly dictator who ever lived combined for sheer blood-lust. Nice try.

And when Stalin

And when Stalin did what he did, he committed no moral wrong, because moral wrong does not exist, that statement, moral wrong has NO truth value if you are an honest Atheist, as I've been told by honest Atheists before. At least according to an Atheist world view.

More to the point, what

More to the point, what possible standing could a group of people who blindly condone the mass torture of hundreds of billions of average humans (including people you have known and loved) for endless eons of time for the terrible crime of not choosing to worship YOUR particular myth, have to tell an athiest they can't be moral?

What are you going to tell people about your sterling morality while you sit around in your golden city while your son, brother, friend or wife or whatever is currently being sodomized by a flaming pitchfork in hell by servants under the command of your new heavnly landlord?

"Gee God, could you maybe make an exception for my son, Bob? I tried to tell him not to go athiest, but he kept wanting to see some proof that you existed. Could you at least ask those demons to put out the fire a few hours a day, or maybe lighten up on the demonic gang rapes? Im having a little trouble sleeping knowing that my first born child is in unimaginable horrific agony 24/7 and will be for the next several trillion years."

The truth is, you don't actually believe this nonsense or you wouldn't take part in it. You just reeeeeally "hope" the good parts are true and block out any attempts anyone makes to get you to consider the bad parts you are ingonrantly ignoring.

Anyone who believes in the hell myth has no place lecturing anyone about morality, because they are no better than a cowardly guard at a nazi death camp. If belief in that monster is what is required to have "meaning" in your life, then id say no wonder the world is such a nice place.

Childish

Bark on dog.

Ah yes. Great comeback. An

Ah yes. Great comeback. An insult without any attempt at all to refute the irrefutable.

Do you know how many times ive seen that same display of utter weakness and defeat? Grow up. Evolve. At this point, you are your own slave master. Stop being a coward and face logic head on. Ask some hard questions and grow the balls to truly think about them.

Dogs

Don't respect logic. They only bark and howl. You're a very angry coagulation of space dust today aren't you? Too bad it doesn't matter what space dust thinks, because it doesn't, it responds to stimuli. Apparently with a LOT of typing of meaningless nonsense.