17 votes

IRS Duress Question

If contracts signed under duress are considered invalid. Would any IRS form (contract) signed by myself while under duress be valid?

Duress because I "agreed" to it under the impression that if I don't I will be thrown to prison at gunpoint.




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As a warning to some here:

There is a poster here that keeps promoting Pete Hendrickson's advice. FYI - he paid the price and spent a couple of years behind bars.

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So you are against a tax strike?

No, and I don't understand why you would try to imply that.

Don't twist things. I'm merely pointing out that if you are going to take that advice, be prepared for the consequences. I think it's pretty irresponsible to blindly take people's advice without considering the possible outcomes - yet people on the internet do it ALL the time. If you're going to promote someone - DON'T conveniently leave PERTINENT information out. You know, like the fact that he was sentenced to prison for following his own advice!? Wouldn't you think that's relevant?

Just like Adam Kokesh, I applaud his stance, what it stood for, and that he actually "walked the walk". However, he recently stated that he regretted doing what he did.

Income tax?

You are under duress when you sign a W-4 form. If you don't sign, you're not getting hired. How's that for stress? It's no wonder why there is an underground economy. People are tired of having their hard earned money stolen under the guise of "income tax". That is why the courts are still stifling the William J. Benson case in Illinois under a permanent injunction dated January 10, 2008. The 16th amendment was never truly ratified. If a "critical mass" of people decide not to pay their taxes on April 15, this year, you'd better believe we'd get the government's attention. This would be a for sure way to make them do our bidding. How would they enforce compliance? As Larken Rose pointed out, they don't have the manpower numbers. Hit them where it hurts most, in the pocketbook. They will listen.

You should refile any errant

You should refile any errant forms with them and correct your position. You must learn what constitutes "income" and what does not. I know it has already been posted in this thread but www.losthorizons.com

The greater question is...

Why are any of you still giving money to the unconstitutional federal government?

You are on the right track

The "Constitution" itself has absolutely no authority... take 2 hours, listen to this reading of Lysander Spooner explaining how the entire Constitution is invalid because of duress (and other reasons)... he knew this back in the 1800s:

This is my opinion on spooner, feel free to downvote lol

I don't disagree with what he says, but the argument is made at half-mast. He doesn't see the whole picture, and so his argument is uninformed and invalid.

Let me explain.

There is a lot of talk all over these boards about what is the right form of government to have, including a lack of government, and for the sake of this conversation, from now on when I say "governments" I am also referring to anarchy, the lack of government. The problem is, governments are tools, like a gun or a hammer.

Governments are not inherently evil, people are inherently evil.

Any and all forms of government are exactly the same, regardless of political viewpoint. Governments are only as evil as those who run them, just as a gun can only kill when someone is controlling it. All governments can be benevolent, neutral, or evil.

The question the founders faced over which government to give the American people, was not a question of which would help us succeed. The question was, which from would allow us to retake control, if those in power became corrupt and tyrannical. Out of all forms of government, a Republic was the one with which people can retain the most control, the longest, and yes, this includes forms of anarchy, which they did consider.

There's talk about Anarchy being the correct and true path, and while I agree with you, it is not a viable path. A christian, such as myself, models life after the Israelites who at one time, did in fact have a nation with no leader, they became corrupted and begged for one, but as far as I know, the only true Anarchical society, but like all forms of government, there are good sides, and bad sides.

In a study taken back when I was in high school, I remember reading, "When given the opportunity to not get caught, the percentage of people that would":

Lie: 99%
Steal: 98%
Kill: 70%
Rape: 55%

I could go on, but these are the ones that stuck out to me. Not one statistic ever dropped below 50% though.

I was told just yesterday about the phrase "A lock on a door only keeps good people good." The implication is that those who will do evil, will find a way, with or without the lock. The same goes for Anarchy. Anarchy only works when its people are moral. You expect everyone to leave you alone, because it's the right thing to do. However, what scholars have found, is that law is like a lock. Without law, the temptations are greater to "get away" with something, as suggested by the poll taken above.

All forms of government have good and bad sides to them. The reason we chose Republic, was because the people retained the most control in the long run. Like it or not, you are part of it now, but you are certainly welcome to leave.

That is your choice, we are not forcing you to stay here, it has become corrupted, you can fight with us to take it back, or leave and go live in anarchy. If you choose to stay, than you accept the laws in place in this land, as the majority are here for our protection. Even the founders called government a necessary evil.

You talk about real freedom, the choice for everyone to choose. I choose to have a government. Are you arguing to take my choice away from me? Spooner does.

Stop using your brain, or you will be punished!

Now go PLEDGE your ALLEGIANCE, watch some TV, always cheer for the home team and stop questioning your government. That's an order!

If men are good, you don't need government; if men are evil or ambivalent, you don't dare have one.

The wonderful Japanese people have an answer to this.

It`s called "Hari-Kiri". Make sure the knife blade is sharp.

It is hard to imagine a more stupid or more dangerous way of making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people that pay no price for being wrong.
Thomas Sowell

Isn't the next question Whatcha Gonna Do About It?

Do you think they give a **** if you felt under duress or not?

Isn't the simple fact that King George now has your money?

If King George has your money, then Whatcha Gonna Do About It?

"Duress" is kind of irrelevant in that case, no?

If the answer to the question is nothing, then is it worth talking about?

tasmlab's picture

If we limited conversation...

If we limited conversation to what we could act on, this website would just be a vast white screen with a logo on top and maybe the "time for my nightly jam session" thread.

Currently consuming: Harry Browne, Free Domain Radio; JT Gatto and Holt; Wii U

Well if you are intending to

Well if you are intending to make a name for yourself with the IRS, go for it...

The IRS considers it to be frivolous:

"7. When identifying frivolous documents, consider key indicators such as:

Altered jurats, rewording or crossing off parts of the jurat, statements such as "signed under duress," and "all rights reserved" ,

Irregular entities such as: name of taxpayer in all lower case letters, addresses such as "Territory of (state)" or address in all lower or upper case letters,

Reducing or eliminating tax liability without valid justification, and

Illegal or improper credits, deductions, or exclusions."

http://www.irs.gov/irm/part4/irm_04-010-012r.html

If you disagree with me on anything you are not a real libertarian...

Gotta ask...why were you interviewing an IRS agent

when you're in the middle of this mess?
http://www.dailypaul.com/311031/irs-questions

God grants liberty only to those who love it, and are always ready to guard and defend it. – Daniel Webster

It never happened ... he

It never happened ... he backed out of the interview.

How I Learned To LOVE the Tax Code!!

Why not join Pete Hendrickson and I on The Shields Report, Monday 17 February, 9:00 PM EST WVLT.COM or 92.1 FM in the Philly area.
Learn more about the income tax and how you can learn to LOVE the law as it is actually written. Find out why idiots like Mark Levin and Hannity and Boortz (flat tax, sales tax, etc.) ARE so mis-informed, they would discard a perfectly good, constitutional taxation system (that works in your favor) and give the US government jurisdiction over ALL economic activity everywhere and always. Find out how to keep your money - and the IRS will (eventually) agree with you. I can't stress the importance of this issue enough. DPers - Call in with questions!! 856-696-0092 Monday night 9:00 PM EST WVLT.COM The Shields Report - Comin on Strong- Stayin On LONG!!

“...taxes are not raised to carry on wars, but that wars are raised to carry on taxes”
Thomas Paine, Rights of Man

Don't bring a knife to a tank fight.

1) It's not a contract, it's an agreement. It's not generally enforceable in a Court of Law. Which means that if they prosecute you criminally, and you and your lawyer don't make any legal mistakes then it might work.
2) In Tax Court you are in an article I court (really a tribunal not a court), which is not a part of the federal judiciary (article III courts). Think administrative law judge combined with a territorial court's power. They effectively make up what ever rules they want in Tax Court. If they like you it might work(since you are not a big political donor..I mean wealthy tax payer, I'm guessing they won't like you). If you know what your talking about they will probably threaten you with fines for making frivolous arguments (a penalty of up to $5000 for attempting to raise a defense) or claim they lack a jurisdiction to hear your arguments (which jurisdiction they are denied by congress). Then they will garnish your wages by threatening your "employer" and seize your stuff. But if you really know your stuff they probably won't risk prosecuting you after they take your stuff (see above).

Once you comprehend the differences between Courts of Law, Equity, admiralty, and maritime jurisdiction; and you comprehend the difference between article I courts and article III courts you will have take the first of at least 100 steps necessary to begin reading the court decision to comprehend how specifically and intentionally the justice system in our Union is broken.

I wouldn't recommend messing with the IRS until your confident you can make an argument to put them to death for treason by there own rules. The first step is of course is to write a Constitutional Amendment that fixes the problem. So when you understand the problem well enough to write an Amendment that can't be perverted in this so called system of justice, let us know.

Why not just remove yourself

Why not just remove yourself from their jurisdiction by correcting your status, refute the presumption of US citizen status, and embrace your rightful and lawful State nationality. The Amendment (link below) will show you the law. Execute your exit plan now rather than after the SHTF.

~ Engage in the war of attrition: http://pacalliance.us/redamendment/

Just claim exempt...

and starve the beast!

They would likely throw out

They would likely throw out the first one, then make you fill out a new one plus penalties. And still throw you in jail anyway if you resist.

To climb the mountain, you must believe you can.

or something like this might jar them...

http://www.dailypaul.com/267690/letter-to-send-the-irs-and-a...

It is what it is and it ain't what it ain't. Also there's pandas.

"Anyone who thinks you can't create something out of nothing never dated a drama queen."

-me

anyone?

anyone?

have someone else...

...sign your name on there. You sign mine and I'll sign yours type of thing.

I guess I'm not alone

how would that work though?

how would that work though?

They can't prove that...

...you signed a fraudulent return. I sign mine Porky Pig every year, because I refuse to sign something that could put me in jail if false. When I was a teenager I worked for this shady lady whose company went bankrupt. She tagged all the employees with 1099s, that she never gave us but turned into the IRS, on top of the W4s for the wages we did earn. I didn't know jack about filing taxes so I just claimed zero every year thinking that as long as I don't owe then I am good. When I finally did file one year they kept my $1700 plus said that I owed $3000 more from the $800 bill due to interest and penalties. When I went to the IRS office they told me that I had to prove that she did not give me the money she claimed and that had the amount been more I would have had charges filed against me for leaving it off my return. That means that anyone can claim that they gave you money if they have your SSN and potentially target you for jail. I refuse to sign my name under those circumstances because I cannot prove that they will consider it correct even if it is. If you leave it blank then they won't accept it. So I put Porky Pig on mine.

I guess I'm not alone

I "owe" well over 40k ... its

I "owe" well over 40k ... its pure theft and I am trying to find a way to have something like common law work in my favor. I am new to all of this

Keep your 40K ...and it is legal.

LOSTHORIZONS.COM

Questions? WSHIELDS@COMCAST.NET

“...taxes are not raised to carry on wars, but that wars are raised to carry on taxes”
Thomas Paine, Rights of Man

Bump. Go there and learn.

Bump. Go there and learn. Stop paying taxes you don't owe.

do the math, and take a hike. is my advice.

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I don't have any answers...

...to help you get out of paying what they claim you owe. Only that you don't want to knowingly, or unknowingly for that matter, sign a fraudulent return.

I guess I'm not alone