12 votes

I would like to hear your best evidence for a Creator

I'm putting together another list, and I could use your help. Opposing evidence is welcome as well.

*EDIT* Here are the answers I have gleaned from this thread.
http://www.dailypaul.com/315168/evidence-for-a-creationist-m...

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Evidence? If it were only that simple.

From microbiology to the cosmos, from the ocean depths to the polar caps, from ecological balance to the Fibonacci code..
if you can't see the evidence, you're not looking.

You don't need a church to find your Creator..

"Hell is empty, and all the devils are here" (Shakespeare)
RP 2012~ Intellectual Revolution.

The law of entropy states

The law of entropy states that the tendency of the universe is one of order towards disorder...mountains crumble...orbits decay etc etc. The only time this is not true is with the introduction of outside energy(sattelites adjust decaying orbits through rocket thruster adjustments...aka outside energy). Therefore if the law of entropy is correct life could NEVER evolve...since thats opposite of entropy...it goes from a state of disorder toward one of order. It proves there is outside energy involved.

I disagree.

How is a mountain "orderly", but the dunes in the desert "disorderly". How is a comet speeding in a straight line through space disorderly, but if it falls into orbit around a planet or star, it is orderly, then when it falls out of orbit millions or billions of years later, it is disorderly once again?
The order or disorder we perceive in the natural world depends on our point of reference and our opinions. Your view that a mountain is orderly may be contrary to someone millions of years in the future who sees that same matter as a sand dune washed by the waves and blown by the wind into very beautiful and orderly patterns.
From that perspective, I just don't accept the law of entropy.

Free market capitalism isn't right for America because it works better. It's right because it's free (and it works better).

The Universe began with a massive burst of energy...

.. or so current theory has it. Since its inception it may well be running down. But the Solar System is not the entirety of the universe, and the Earth's biosphere is not a closed system. Fusion fuels the sun, exchanging mass for energy (E equals MC-squared), and solar radiation imparts enormous energy to our delicate (and rare) biosphere. This argument does not rule out a creator, nor does it require one. Your argument fails by implying that the earth is a closed system.

As far as "evidence" for a "Creator", I guess you could call the universe and everything in it evidence, but none of it is conclusive. At some point in an investigation, an honest scientist will say "I don't know." At the same point the mystic will say, "God done it." Positing a deity simply precesses the question, it does not answer it.

dynamite anthrax supreme court white house tea party jihad
======================================
West of 89
a novel of another america
https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/161155#longdescr

An honest scientist. lol

Scientist are people too, and just like I learned very quickly in biology if someone cannot see good design they will take the worlds most complicated highest technology -- humans - and see pure materialism. It's mind blowing too me I'm trying to go into biomemetics and I explain to people we don't need any more material reseach really.

If we can modify DNA, hell we can build anything literally. DNA was working on a nano level from the begining that was my first tingling down the spine WTF moment.

On Tron Shay Dalliance

Nothing really to add, just like pronouncing your name.
(Smiley face or rim shot?)

dynamite anthrax supreme court white house tea party jihad
======================================
West of 89
a novel of another america
https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/161155#longdescr

I am glad to see someone mention that.

Ever since I learned of the law of entropy I have always used it in debates like this one - and I have always gotten confused, and stunned looks. As if my opponent had never heard of such a thing and it completely went over his head. And rather than to even get a bad argument back - I typically got uncomfortable silence.

I stopped using the argument because, I was sick of getting a reaction as if I had suddenly started speaking Russian.

Good to hear another DPer using it. (Who else?)

I've always liked this quote on the subject

In response to a man who was teaching and denying that there is a God and who was asking for a sign to prove to him that there was a Creator, Alma, a prophet of God in the Book of Mormon told him:

"Thou hast had signs enough; will ye tempt your God?
Will ye say, Show unto me a sign, when ye have the testimony of all these thy brethren, and also all the holy prophets? The scriptures are laid before thee, yea, and all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and all things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator."
-Alma 30:44

The evidence is literally all around us and in us and through us. In every little particle up to the largest galaxy and the universe itself. We are all creations. Life affirms it. Consciousness and intelligence. Existence is the evidence. But God doesn't stop there, he sends us prophets and teachers and scriptures that bear testimony of Him and even sent his Son to testify of Him. And if we listen to the words of Christ and of the prophets and to those whom God has sent he will even send the Holy Ghost to confirm in our hearts the truth, that God is. I have listened, read, and felt this truth. I see the hand of God, or evidence if you will, more and more everyday in my life as I try to follow what he has taught me. As Jesus says in the Bible:

"If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."
-John 7:17

Though it is abundant, God is not to be found through evidence, God is found through Faith (belief put to action). Evidence is like a road marker saying "this way". You still have to walk that path to find Him. That is Faith. Some just don't want to believe or put faith to action for one reason or another. But those who sincerely do but aren't quite sure where to look God will find them and lead them to where he is. Evidence will point you in a direction but only faith will take you there. The more faith you exercise the more evidence you'll see along the way until the perfect day and you find the Creator.

Tl;dr Yes there is evidence of a Creator, unless you choose to discount absolutely everything, in which case I don't know what to tell you. It's a classic case of not seeing the forrest because of all those darn trees in the way :)

Good luck with your list, may it lead you in a positive direction!

I got a degree in bacteriology and looked under the

microscope a lot and was taught about what all that stuff was doing under the microscope and was an am amazed. Then I went to graduate school and studied more how stuff is put together and looked under the electron microscope. Say no more. It got put together somehow. How? To me that's proof.

SequoiaTrees4RonPaul

What got me about biology was Urey miller.

Materialist claim he created those enantiomers lol(inferring he could of made life)-- no shell just a bunch of left-right floating amino acids. I told my teacher the only thing this experiment tells me is the important of selective permeability and just having a membrane.

That was literally the argument in my head that started unraveling the whole thing.It's like imagining earth forming life and then an atmosphere second. It just does not make sense, and I think that is becuase life was either brought here or made her and left here.

I see the cell as being lightyears ahead of our stone age technology.

Is there a creator? Well we

Is there a creator? Well we do not know. Noone does. Noone has ever known. We're at the scientific peak of our species, and we simply don't have the slightest idea.

Humans have always used some kind of god(s) to explain things around us which we cannot comprehend at the time. As our science advance though we have to adjust that over and over. For those who like to google this is called "the god of the gaps".

We now know that there's trillions of planets in our galaxy. Which means to the supposed creator of the universe, we on planet earth, are completely insignificant. Thinking that we are somehow more important than that, is simply wishful thinking and egotistic.

Let's say there was a creator who cared for us though. Just for the sake of things. Then ask yourself why he created stillborn children, deformed featuses, or even gave us a conscience so we can run around abuse eachother and the planet.

For now, I'd say I'm an agnostic. Can't rule out that we ain't stuck in some Truman Show ;) But there's simply no evidence to support any idea of a creator at this time.

Too vague

I was baptized Catholic and made my Communion but was never confirmed. Looking back now, I wouldn't change a thing I believed or felt about growing up that way, since that is what my Grandparents and mother also grew up. I felt normal and in someways still do. But I never really grasped the whole story. So I now do not identify with any Religion. The only thing that gives me a sliver of belief is after going through a heap load of chronic medical issues, I must say that I am astonished by the Human Body. To say there is no intelligence in the design of our bodies is questionable at best.

A man

A man and his peepee.

A woman and her ovary. :)

My over simplified take........

on the subject.

Have a look at a beautiful painting hanging on any wall. Ask yourself or anyone else did someone create that? We all of course know the answer. Now ask yourself if something so beautiful yet so simple in relation to, say, the complexity of human life ( for example ) had to have a creator, how can we possibly believe that complicated life from the molecule onward, & the cosmos had no creator.

wolfe's picture

I'll play.

Fair warning, I am an atheist (marginally Buddhist).

I have in my personal life, beyond a shadow of a doubt proven connections with people, events, and life in general which cannot be explained even in a small way by any valid, current, scientific theories.

This, at it's heart, is how religions dig into people and society. By saying, "No one knows, so listen to us because we claim to explain it."

So the full body of "evidence" to support "god" boils down to ignorance. "I don't know, so the easiest path to explanation is a god that I don't know or understand."

The evidence for god(s) is ignorance. I am ignorant, as we all are, but that doesn't mean I am going to start worshiping the spaghetti monster to explain it.

The Philosophy Of Liberty -
http://www.thephilosophyofliberty.com/

Proving God’s Existence

I think Answers in Genesis(AiG)is an awesome ministry. I had seen this post on Daily Paul the last few days and just went to the website of AiG
and what was the topic posted? Proving God’s Existence
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/proving-god/would-y...

"And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand." Matthew 12:25
http://www.needgod.com/
http://www.geniusthemovie.com/

>

This article represents significant issues with traditional Christianity:

The author eventually pre-judges others and threatens eternal condemnation if not in agreement
(ie. "Even if God showed up at your door and you started believing in Him, that is not enough to give you eternal life")

Then the author claims exclusive rights to imperative salvation with unsubstantiated inferences and deductions
(ie. "Continue using the best biblical apologetics arguments as you earnestly contend for the faith [Jude 3];
We are no different from the Intelligent Design movement if we do not always and consistently preach Christ and call people to repent and trust in Him")

Finally the author denies free conscience as a means of discernment, which makes the whole debate meaningless
(ie. "Further, the results are the responsibility of the Holy Spirit, not you. Be encouraged and know that Jesus is the Lord no matter what the skeptics say;
For it is written: 'As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God' [Romans 14:11])"

No, thanks.

If the universe, its structures and substances,

evolved somehow according to natural law where then did these laws come from? How did they come into being and what maintains them? This is not an argument for a Creator because the original question failed to define "Creator". Just a simple question....

Cyril's picture

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but I'm afraid the evidence

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but I'm afraid the evidence that we can neither formally prove or disprove some far outreaching statements - that evidence eventually came in 1931 :

http://www.dailypaul.com/283067

... and that was rather a bummer, if only for logicians / mathematicians - we can ask them how that felt at the time!

Or, unless someone comes forth with the (original!) idea that physics would somehow be even more precise, and would make even fewer assumptions than, say, Number Theory does, in mathematics?

(Good luck with such one, though! ;-)

That said, faith is only an option, as I understood it.

Nothing ought to be seen as mandatory there, AFAICT.

'HTH,

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.

http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty

"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

Gödel suggests

I am not provable (and so is clearly true)

in a consistent system.

It's a thinker. The linked video's in your prior thread help get into Gödel's mind. I watched all three parts, thanks.

Just open the box and see

perhaps faith is a halting problem

You cannot prove whether faith will cause your head to stop.

“With laws shall our land be built up, but with lawlessness laid waste.”
-Njal Thorgeirsson

Cyril's picture

LOL. Nor can I disprove it! ;)

LOL. Nor can I disprove it! ;)

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.

http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty

"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

I must have watched this

at least five times since you first pointed it out to me. It makes me wonder what we can prove, and if statements of existence are included in those "far reaching statements" you mentioned.

Thanks for the comments, Cyril. Note that the term "evidence" was used in the OP rather than "proof." I hope that is in line with what you have told me.

.

Hear, O Israel: YHUH our God YHUH one. And thou shalt love YHUH thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Cyril's picture

Well, that's the thing with Godel's findings:

Well, that's the thing with Godel's findings:

both humans and computers seem to agree:

1 + 1 = 2.

Now, the REALLY interesting questions for both are:

WHAT is "1" vs. "2", EXACTLY, to start with?

Likewise,

WHAT is " + "?

WHAT is " = "?

CAN the "countably infinite" (e.g., natural numbers) really exist, even should it be thought that we live in a "finite" universe? Or if the universe itself is infinite, would it be a "countably" one, or would it be higher on the scale of the continuum?

WHAT "to exist" does even mean?

Does it mean to compute both sides of an equation and testing for equivalence of the identities?

And WHO / WHAT will test "the equivalence" itself?

WHO / WHAT will be the ultimate witness that EVERYTHING is both sound AND complete?

WHERE does TIME fit in there?

Etc, etc.

;)

That's why I eventually accepted faith and science to be strictly orthogonal. Personally, I like both. But not everybody has to! :)

More importantly I found there's nothing much constructive coming out of trying to oppose or combine them against / with each other (i.e., have one incompatible or dependent - against or upon the other).

As History shows, I think... quite the opposite. Regrettably.

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.

http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty

"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

Thanks

What is "1"?

That is a good question. If I may test my assumptions, doesn't "to exist" equal "1"?

That seems to be the word from Moses. I think it is in my signature below.

.

Hear, O Israel: YHUH our God YHUH one. And thou shalt love YHUH thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

The Book of Mormon, Another Testament of Jesus Christ

Reading this book and abiding by its precepts has given me experiences with the Spirit which has erased all doubt that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and the Creator of this world, and worlds without number.

If the Book of Mormon is true then Joseph Smith, Jr. was a true prophet, and his testimony that he saw God the Father and Jesus Christ is true, which is more evidence I give to you.

Any honest person who reads the Book of Mormon will have to concede that an uneducated farm boy could not have written that 531-page book, filled with the doctrines of Christ, which is historically accurate which contains vast amounts of Hebrew poetry, and has zero inconsistencies or conflicts within its own pages and with the Holy Bible. And if you concede that he could not have written it, it begs the question: where did the book come from? Or perhaps Joseph's testimony is true and God does love us and is trying to speak to the world through prophets today.

You ask for evidence? I submit to you there is no greater evidence for the existence of God/ a Creator than the Book of Mormon which is another witness that what the Bible is saying is true, namely that Jesus is the Christ. As the Bible testifes, in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

Sincerely,

The Underdog

"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a rEVOLution before tomorrow morning." - Henry Ford

No

Read up on the history. Joseph Smith made it up. The Book of Mormon is not very old (1830) it was written by one man so of course its consistent with itself. Check out the story of how it was written (surprisingly the South Park episode on Mormonism is a great resource here.)

also this:
"During the 1830s, Smith sent out missionaries, published revelations, and supervised construction of an expensive temple. However, due to the collapse of a church-sponsored bank and violent skirmishes with angry non-Mormon Missourians, Smith's dreams of building Zion in Missouri and Ohio failed by the end of the decade. In the early 1840s, Smith established a new city called Nauvoo, Illinois, where he was a spiritual and political leader. In 1844, Smith and the Nauvoo city council angered non-Mormons by ordering a printing press destroyed after it was used to publish an exposé critical of Smith's power and practice of polygamy. During the ensuing controversy, Smith was imprisoned in Carthage, Illinois, and killed when a mob stormed the jailhouse."

"Once you become knowledgeable, you have an obligation to do something about it."- Ron Paul

to quote your quote.

"Once you become knowledgeable, you have an obligation to do something about it."- Ron Paul

Actually the Book of Mormon is true.. Read it and let the Holy Ghost confirm it's truth. It really is true. After I read your quote I had to speak up in defense of truth. The south park episode is fiction. Quite a few people saw the Gold plates and never denounce it even though they left the church and renounced Joseph Smith.

Sorry

Its deception. The Holy Spirit has confirmed that. The Bible is enough, no need for extra books. It conflicts with the Bible in many areas. The trouble is that most Mormons are nice enough and successful enough that hardly anyone questions their doctrine or beliefs.

The Truth has been around for thousands of years as revealed in the Scriptures. The angel Moroni, Joseph Smith, seer stones, gold tablets, the Nephites, etc all were made up and came into play in the early 1800's.

"Once you become knowledgeable, you have an obligation to do something about it."- Ron Paul

Having read The New World Testament...

..it never occurred to me that Joe Smith was "uneducated." Whether or not he had a formal education is irrelevant. His (possibly subconscious) knowledge of didactics and pedagogy is profound, and his work is profounding beautiful, but I still consider it to be pure confabulation. Of course that didn't stop me from liberally swiping vast passages for my own self-indulgent little screed (advertised below.)

dynamite anthrax supreme court white house tea party jihad
======================================
West of 89
a novel of another america
https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/161155#longdescr