3 votes

Facts about Slavery most people fail to consider!

1. The vast majority of slaves were captured during tribal wars and sold into slavery by their rival tribes.

2. 365,000 Union soldiers died in the war that freed the slaves. If one's great grandfather died in that war, are they due reparations and compensation from black people? Have you ever heard a black person express gratitude for the sacrifices made by the Union soldiers and the public tax money it took to fight that war.

3. Less than 20% of European Americans owned slaves. Today, most Americans have never seen a slave and never been a slave. Therefore modern day Americans can not be held accountable for what a few of their neighbor's ancestors did 200 years ago.

4. Most American blacks decided they like America better than Africa and haven't tried to return to their homeland. Therefore, blacks whose ancestors were slaves are the lucky ones, compared to blacks who are still living in Africa. Certainly if people don't like it here, they, like all races are free to leave and return to their native land.

5. Slave labor jump started the Industrial Revolution which was critical in winning the world wars of the 1900's. Therefore, that contribution by African Americans should be recognized, else we could now, all be speaking German or Russian.

6. Throughout history many many people have been enslaved including the House of Israel that was enslaved 400 years in Egypt.

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You said:

"I like to collect facts that result in logical conclusions especially when most people are drawing erroneous conclusions based a lack of truth."

-What conclusions do you draw from these facts you have collected?
Let's hear it.

some new thoughts--

When I first saw this OP I was really angry, and I responded accordingly.

I've since had some time to think, and:

Arkansas, Iowa, and Missouri all had black infantrymen in the Union--
Missouri had almost 1800. Some were free; some were slaves.

http://books.google.com/books?id=UDJsRR7DcqQC&printsec=front...

You can try that as a link; according to one documented source nearly 187,000 black men (women) fought in the Civil War (on the union side) by the end of the war.

The reason for the "end of the war"? The Union army harshly rejected black recruits in the beginning.

Hargrove's book has been around for over a decade, and it is available on Amazon. And, yes, there are many pictures of black soldiers from the civil war era.

That's one book; there are others.

But to another point:

Sadly, for your 'logic', Ralph (*again trying to keep things light*)--
the only black people I know are hard-working professionals. I just don't know any who are on welfare. I know some Asians who are on welfare; they also work very hard, from children up, but because they have large families (recent refugees), they do qualify for food stamps and a few other programs.

I suppose that after they pay *us* for the welfare they have used, *we* should send them back to the refugee camps?

As I said, all the ones I know who receive government assistance work many jobs; there are no non-working teens (we know these people personally), and children often work in family businesses; people like to hire them, because they work hard and are dependable, but they have used government assistance; it is a transition from refugee and penniless to independence.

Then I know (one some time ago) two men with families who were on welfare, complete assistance; one got off; he was a third generation welfare recipient; he was completely white; his ancestors were from the English aristocracy; he was descended from a younger son, and work was looked down on. Once in the U.S. the family continued on the dole--

this third generation person finally got off. The other one is of Dutch extraction (completely white) and didn't work due to nebulous 'health' reasons; I think the man had diabetes; I know a lot of people with diabetes who work, don't you?

Again, he was very 'genteel'; his wife also didn't work; they had a family of well-educated children, and I daresay those children did learn how to work.

This is all anecdotal, of course. My spouse and I were close friends with two of these families (the black family, very hard-working, professional, and the one who had escaped from welfare whose family came several generations earlier from England)--

Even though the white man did escape from complete welfare, he was always looking for assistance; he never was able to shrug off the welfare mentality, even though he did work. He was quite helpless. It was sad to see.

I suppose he and his family and the other white man whose family name was Dutch--
should pay *us* and be sent back to England and The Netherlands?

The black man, a professional, but low level, not medical or legal, is one of the most hard-working people we've ever met and has a family--
children all ambitious, talented. He would never accept help from anyone; I do believe (his family was from the south and from a freed slave background; I do know that much) that his family might have received assistance when he was young, but I am not certain. I know he worked his way through college, and he was good at sports--
I know his extended family is very close.

So, what I am saying, Ralph, is that I think *you* have a lot of work ahead of you, to sort out those who have been on welfare for generations--

or who refuse to work--from every race, ethnic group, nationality, and make certain that, after they pay *us* back, they return "home".

This is why I have to agree with the dizzle. You have collectivized extensively.

I do know more blacks than that one man (or we do); none of them are on welfare; I bring up the one example, because he has worked so hard and is a professional.

At one point he told us, "I worked so hard, but I always felt that anyone white looking at me and seeing my success would think it had been handed to me, because of civil rights, but I can't waste a lot of time worrying about that; people will think what they will; if they choose to resent me because of my skin color, even though I have worked so hard, there isn't much I can do about that."

And he is not light-skinned.

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

I think Rev. Manning

gives credence to your empirical point on #4. There are those who may try to say he's wrong, but like he says 'prove it'. It's not about the communist Trotsky's(Bronstein's) created devisionist tool called 'racism', it's about the empirical facts of reality.

if your family has been out of Africa, England, Asia, Germany--

for more than one or two generations (and African slaves had been in America for many generations in many cases)--

would you want to 'go back'?

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

We are all slaves to something, willing or unwilling.

Denial, obfuscation and belligerence will not remove this immutable truth from each of our lives. The Greek word for servant is " Dulos ": a slave, either willing or unwilling.

To begin with,I found your thread completely devoid of the reasoning for the post? What motivated you to write this? I'm seriously intrigued as to what motivated you.

Now back to my point, we all are Servants, to God or to Lucifer, to righteousness or unrighteousness if you will. Whether or not an individual ascribes to a " religious belief system " or not, this rule applies to all equally. Rather, this is my fundamental belief, and since I've had physical answers to metaphysical requests in truth, I have verified beyond a single doubt the veracity and verity of my Gods existance to a place well beyond my own satisfaction.

When I say " God is, and Jesus is the ONLY way to meet God " I say it because I know it for a very rock solid fact.

Now, and please accept this in the heart for which I offer it too you, to either voluntarily receive or voluntarily reject, choose as you will I love you irrespective of your choice: but would much rather spend eternity with you al, than without. Mind you here, I'm a highly unusual Christian, one who does what is written through Jesus who sanctifies me. If you choose to not believe, unlike some, I won't hunt you down, force my beliefs upon you, or attempt to destroy you: Jesus exemplified love, my purpose is to do the same.

Additional, and scripture aside, whom here actually thinks we, that is anyone alive at present is free from bondage? We, Americans live in a tightening fascism of uber restrictive state controls, we all know this for a fact, it's why we who love freedom rail against it, it is why we are here at the DP.

Slavery, once done primarily based upon " ethnos " or " race" has gone and grown up, it now enslaves all whom can not purchase their freedoms from the Fascist Elite who are gear to tighten the yoke upon us. Day after day we read of it ramping up, LEO's gone wild without recourse for their thuggery, Elitist judges robbing the people blind with unconstitutionality, a congress and administration(s) who game face without a sweat of a tear as they destroy this once mighty nation. We are all slaves in more ways than one, and I can't speak for you but :

My Spirit and my flesh will serve only God, for that is my destiny, my calling, my purpose for being " steadfast ": I will be, as God did say unto me " a blazing lampstands unto this earth for Him ". I often fail to see it, I know I fail more than I'd like too in this polemic betwixt those who enslave me. But my God is a pleasent master, who loveingkindness sacrificed Himself to save me. Tell me, where else us there such a master as He, whom else would die that I might live ?

God bless
Happy sabbath, family in the freedom of searching for freedom unfound.

Stēkō pharrēsia Iēsoua

Drew, by the very grace of GOD through the blood of Christ Jesus.
"there shall come after us men whom shall garner great wealth using our system, and having done so shall seek to slam the door of prosperity behind them." George Washington

What in the world

is wrong with your brain?

OR

What points are you trying to make with these "facts about slavery most fail to consider"?

What he is trying yo say is:

Black people are lucky their ancestors are slaves.
We wouldn't have had an industrial revolution without slaves.
White people died in the civil war so now white people deserve a thank you.
Black people have never seen slaves, so they don't deserve an apology.
And finally, it was black people who did the enslaving in the first place, so whitey is absolved.

I think that about sums it up.

Séamusín

Hmmm...

Is that true or is that your tortured interpretation of this man's post.

I'll wait for him to speak for himself.

It's... uh...

..a dramatic fluorish! Yeah, that's the ticket!
Anyway, I chuckled; it did kind of sum it up. From a skewed view perhaps.

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West of 89
a novel of another america
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Back Up

2. 365,000 Union soldiers died in the war that freed the slaves. If one's great grandfather died in that war, are they due reparations and compensation from black people? Have you ever heard a black person express gratitude for the sacrifices made by the Union soldiers and the public tax money it took to fight that war.

Where do I start?

No declaration of war, The so called ( war ) was never about freeing slaves , Slavery was still legal and protected by law during the so called ( war ), Only after the war was concluded did a amendment forbidding slavery get added to the Constitution , most soldiers in the beginning volunteered to be in the service how do you get reparations from something you volunteer to do ?

I'm on my 15 min. break at work I'll finish this line of thought tonight

Life is a sexually transmitted disease with a 100% fatality rate.
Don't Give me Liberty, I'll get up and get it myself!

This read...

...like an infomercial for slavery.
.

"4. Most American blacks decided they like America better than Africa and haven't tried to return to their homeland"

And here I was thinking they didn't have a ship and months supply of food to make it back across the Atlantic. Home is overrated anyway.

Refuting your 'facts' in order

1. The vast majority of cannibalism was committed by tribes so that somehow makes cannibalism 'ok'.

2. If the union soldiers were to get reparations, it would be from the confederate soldiers.

Should the Jews pay reparations to American soldiers for freeing them? Not likely.

3. We are still trying Nazis in the courts 70 years later.

4. Once slavery was no more, blacks had been removed from Africa and other places for generations.

5. The first industrial revolution was primarily in the Northeast. The second industrial revolution, with the advent of steel, was after abolishment.

6. Yep, slavery used to be legal, long ago. Now it is not.

1. And then white people

1. And then white people bought them and kept them and their descendants in slavery for hundreds of years. Don't see how your "fact" changes anything.

2. This is an interesting one because so often on this website I see people try and claim that the war was about all these philosophical matters and had absolutely nothing to do with slavery. This argument implies that slavery was in fact a major cause of the war. I'll have to remember this point the next time I have to listen to someone say the war was all about protective tariffs.

3. I'm going to assume you are talking about reparations here, even though you just use the word accountable. I don't think most people who advocate reparations do it to hold certain people accountable; if reparations did occur, it wouldn't be a judgment in a courtroom but paid for through taxes, which are not paid for by just white people. Which means accountability really has nothing to do with it. I'm not for reparations, but I'm also not under the delusion that reparations would 'hold Americans accountable' for slavery.

4. The second sentence does not follow from the first. It's interesting that you should think that anyone who doesn't like America is free to go somewhere else. Are people from other countries free to leave and come here? Furthermore, I'd be pretty annoyed at someone telling me that I'm so lucky to have had enslaved great-great-grandparents because it meant I got to live in America today. I'm Jewish and part of my family came here fleeing the Holocaust-- should I feel lucky that my great-grandparents had to flee their homeland (after all of their brothers and sisters were killed) because it means I get to be here today?

5. There are always some good things that come out of any evil. Think of all the good things that came out of European monarchies, WPA projects, the Marshall Plan, simplified Chinese, etc.

6. Actually, there is very little evidence that there was a mass enslavement of the Israelites in Egypt (and, interestingly, basically no evidence at all of an exodus)

Here's another fact about slavery.

We are all slaves.

Anyone who is unwillingly subject to the rules or laws of someone else is a slave.

Thankfully I will not be a slave in the coming Kingdom because I agree with the rules and laws of the King. Therefore I will be a son and not a servant. HalleluYah.

Enslavement: A Dutch/European Story

The story of slavery is far greater in scope than that limited to American history. Before arguing "facts" it is best to acquire as many as possible. This video reinforces many of the same points made by Stefan Molyneux below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7vYJVkpPis

This guy loves collectivism

Those are actually some of the dumbest "facts" that I've ever seen anyone have the nerve to post around here.

With the exception of some of your other posts...

Name calling is always the default position for

lack of substance. You obviously can't handle the truth and have nothing to add to the discussion.

he didn't call you 'dumb', Ralph--

You said that I only liked my own opinions; what the dizzle said and what you said aren't that different.

He didn't call you a name. Perhaps the dizzle could have said it more concisely and given reasons--

He said you liked collectivism. Well, from your OP, it appears that you do like collectivism.

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

I like to collect facts that result in logical

conclusions especially when most people are drawing erroneous conclusions based a lack of truth.

Answer my question: What conclusion do you draw

from these facts that you posted?

To 1988Vote - Here is your solution!

Why don't you find some slave descendants and obligate your life time of earnings to them. And while you are at it, you should obligate by contract your neighbors wages along with your children and your grandchildren.

I'm sure you can explain to them, while even though they never owned any slaves nor known any slaves, this is the thing to do to correct the injustices done by some unknown people who lived 200 years ago but obviously makes perfect sense as the right thing to do - (in your mind)!

Then while you are at it, see how many blacks you can get interested in compensating the descendants of the 365,000 Union Soldiers who died in the civil war! That should be a real eye-opener for you!

Ralph . . .

"old fellow"--

*taking a deep breath before committing myself to any words*

I do not blame former slaves for the state of the current economy in the U.S.

I don't see how you can. I don't blame the economic struggles I have had in my life on any group of people by race or ethnic group or language or national origin or religion.

What I do blame is the conspiracy of men and women who formed the FR, the conspiracy(ies) of men and women who championed socialism in the form of the depression's new deals and then later LBJ with his welfare for the descendants of former slaves.

But even those programs could never begin to come close to the amount of money that taxpayers have given for:

--weapons of mass destruction and foreign wars, many pre-emptive and most not necessary

--foreign aid (for all countries given aid)

--banker bail-outs and corporate welfare (which had been going on long before 2008)

I know that it is always easy to blame a group of people, usually people who are not behaving as you would like them to. Successful blacks may appear to you to be successful, because of quotas, so you resent them; unsuccessful blacks seem to you to be riding on your tax money--

but it is SO much easier to get upset about the current state of world affairs (and those right here in America) by blaming people who look and possibly even live (to some extent) differently from you.

It's a really easy thing to do, so simple.

I don't accept your arguments, Ralph.

I don't know how many people can.

You propose what, then?

That all people with dark skins be sent back to Africa, after having to pay, again, for the costs of the civil war to the north?

Wow, what a thought!

Then, when the U.S. economy gets no better, because you (and others with these nonsensical ideas have realized that it is not the fault of former slaves and their descendants), go for the next group of people with dark skins.

So easy to identify!

Oh, Ralph, Ralph, Ralph!

I have read some of your other posts, and some of them really are reasonable; what did you have for breakfast today?

*trying to lighten things up here*

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

I have heard and considered (or read and considered)

every one of your points, Ralph. The assumption you make that *we* are not aware of all of these pro-white/anti-black arguments is naive.

The fact that most people from every place in the world (every race, etc.) have been enslaved at one time or another does not validate slavery of anyone, ever. Every race/ethnic group has always been willing to sell its *own* (the poor, the lower in intelligence, those who don't survive politically) into slavery of one kind of another.

One of the reasons black slavery was so terrible was that slaves could be identified by color. Irish slavery didn't last long because, Irish slaves had a hard time adjusting to the torrid climates in which slaves were forced to work, and because they could escape, due to their skin color, though many died.

The English treatment of the Irish was every bit as horrific and lasted longer than the "English" treatment of Africans. An English 'man' could kill an Irishman (at certain times) in Ireland whenever he wanted to, without repercussion. And the Irish lived with that for centuries, tried to get out of it without success, and most Americans sided with England, because the Irish often became brutal towards the 'occupying' English. That doesn't justify slavery! That doesn't make what happened to Africans between Africa and America and then here on American soil any more right!

Having color be an identifying feature of a slave made it a much more difficult institution from which to escape.

The word Slav (the basis of Slavic) refers to slave, because many of those people were Roman slaves, so, no, Africans have not, always or ever, been the only slaves. But look at how the Slavic nations have struggled politically and economically throughout the centuries; many of them are still trapped in tribal difficulties: UKRAINE, Russia, Bulgaria, Romania, Croatia, the Czech Republic (which is just now pulling out of it, but what a bloody history!) Poland (what a nightmarish century the 20th was for Poland). Slavs. Need I say more? Enslaving people doesn't do much for their descendants how many centuries down the road?

But what is the point of that? Slavery may not be illegal, but it can never be a good way for anyone to live, whether master or slave; it brings out the worst in the master (for the most part), and it is definitely unfair to the slave.

What difference does any of this make? Do you think that some of *us* (I include myself certainly) who believe that African slavery here in America was a blot on America--

do not already know all of this?

And what makes *you* think (in spite of propaganda) that the Civil War freed the slaves? Abraham Lincoln was no lover of black people, and the Civil War was NOT to free the slaves.

Your OP shows your perspective clearly. What on earth are you trying to justify? And why?

Also, lucky to be here in America? People with no land; people in between. Your use of *us* and *they* is very revealing. One of the main reasons that Africa is in so much poverty today is because of the world banks and the colonization that has taken place for over 300 years, not because there is anything inherently "inferior", unless you believe people who don't live in the white European way inferior--
about them, not in any way.

As for black on black animosity and tribal animosity, that exists everywhere and is not unique to Africa. How easily French killed German in WWI; how easily British killed German and Italian in WWII--etc.
How easily white people gather into tribes and kill other white people--

How cruel were the Japanese to the Chinese, are the Chinese to Tibetans? Those are only two examples; Asia has had its history of racial bigotry; they are no exception. China has subsisted on various forms of slavery for centuries. Most Americans can't tell the difference between the physical attributes of or even languages of Asians, and yet they are VERY different. African peoples are also very different from each other. Their cultures are different; they even have different physical characteristics (though dark-skinned). A person who has spent a lot of time with Asians can tell a Korean from a Chinese person from a Japanese person from a Viet Namese person from a Thai person, but many Europeans/Americans cannot. A person who has visited Africa can tell a difference.

Tell the Africans how brutal they have been with their *own* after surveying the damage of the first to 20th century that one European did to another!

I do not see the point of your post, unless you have an unspoken resentment towards Africans for having been, somehow, 'stupid' enough to have been captured and brought to America 300 years ago.

The Civil War was set up to make white Americans resent the 'freed' (what a joke!) slaves; it was set up to perpetuate hatred and division, and it succeeded.

So you've fallen for that, and *you* want us to fall for it.

The American welfare system (bless LBJ's rotten heart!) was set up to continue that resentment. You fell for it; good for you! *sarcasm*
Most freed slaves did not want welfare; all they wanted was work, so they, like all humans, could form and provide for families.
Yes, there were those who were probably not as intelligent or ambitious; such groups can be found in every nation, race, ethnic group--those who are less ambitious, less intelligent. So jump on the eugenics bandwagon and get rid of the genetic deficiencies in all groups and then what can *we* find to resent?

I usually down downvote OPs, but yours is getting my downvote--

On the other hand, I guess you gave me an opportunity to express myself, and maybe some positive learning can come from this, for someone.

I didn't even 'get into' the difference between native American tribes and how often they enslaved each other. Tribal animosity?

How does any of this horror justify slavery of anyone by anyone, ever?

I don't like your OP, Ralph, and I guess my response/comment is angry. I apologize for any offense. I guess I feel pretty strongly about all of this.

Again, apologies for offense.

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

You might want to

learn about Ron Paul's position on this topic and how it relates to liberty, the law and why people are responsible for themselves. Maybe that will help overcome that "worn out" liberal knee jerk reaction and "race card" that always comes from the uninformed whenever this topic is discussed with factual historical and reason.

You do seem to resist and even resent any difference of opinion than your own. Oh well that's no problem with me. : )

PS - Consider this, if your neighbor's grandfather commit a crime of robbery, does that make your children responsible for restitution?

to your P.S.--

what does that have to do with it?

Slavery was institutionalized (just as the Japanese internment was institutionalized)--

Both were wrong. I have no problem with the government trying to give something back to the Japanese after, due to the government's choice (the president, mostly, whom I do not respect, FDR), which allowed most of them to be stripped of their possessions.

Perhaps it was done in the wrong way.

As for the African slaves, how am I paying restitution, as a 'white' person?

Talk about worn-out arguments; the idea that inner city black people are robbing suburban or small town white people is ludicrous. The FR and the 'bankers' (a term Ron Paul uses all the time and just recently) are those who are robbing *us*. All of us.

Including the black people in inner cities--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

my opinion is neither knee-jerk nor . . .

liberal. It is well thought out after decades of study.

And I'm not pulling the 'race card'. Slavery is wrong, always.

And what difference does it make? Do you think that *we* should return to slavery?

I appreciate different opinions often. I don't think I argue strenuously with everything. I acknowledged that my response to this topic is an angry one. I apologize for offense. I see no justification for slavery, ever. Of anyone to anyone. Not just African Americans. I thought I made that clear. There can be no liberty with slavery. Dr. Paul was born during an ideal time for his to espouse his ideas; I daresay he wouldn't have done so well if he had been born in the 1700s in Ireland (I know some of his ancestors are Irish).

We are all born for a purpose and in time. Those who are on the ascendancy can espouse theories, because they are not hungry.

I agree with Dr. Paul 95% of the time; I don't think he supports slavery. I know he doesn't support welfare; I don't either. I am not a socialist or a liberal. I just happen to be against slavery, and I still don't think you've made your points clear. What is the motivation for your OP?

Yes, when it comes to race and slavery, I suppose I am not very open-minded.

Show that you are!

You did open up a discussion; maybe some good will come of it. I don't support slavery; I don't buy Chinese junk or shop at WalMart.

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

Answer this question for yourself.

then maybe you will understand the essence.

If your neighbor's grandfather commits a crime of robbery, does that somehow make your grandchildren responsible for restitution to the victim's descendants some two hundred years later?

slavery is not/was not . . .

a 'crime of robbery'. It was much more than that. It involved destruction of human lives, and it was institutionalized. That is the real crime.

Yes, *we* all pay for the sins of the 'fathers'. People in America today of all races are still paying for the sins of people from hundreds of years ago.

Just go back into your own history, and you can see this.

I had a great-great grandfather who was an alcoholic; I daresay that not only his descendants have suffered (some of whom are alcoholics), but probably many of the descendants of people with whom he associated, though he was not an 'evil' man.

Decisions made by people two or three hundred years ago are still affecting people alive today.

Some of my ancestors were cottage weavers in the border country (Scotland/England); they were independent. The industrial revolution that is so highly praised (?)--

caused them to lose everything. Families were destroyed; children died in mines. Others came to America and lived in poverty for several more generations. A few prospered briefly; all have worked VERY hard.

The descendants, for the most part, of those who owned the factories that destroyed the livelihood of my ancestors--

have done better in America than they have done.

How am I making reparations? I don't believe that all compensations (legal/financial) are right; I never said they were. LBJ and his cronies were all corrupt.

But Martin Luther King had his calling. So what if he quoted Europeans? *We* have no way of knowing what things would be like if there had been no quotas for jobs for Africans/Hispanics.

But most of *us* realize that welfare was just another form of enslavement. Many of the descendants of slaves have also realized it; some have been able to escape it; others have not.

It's sad, but I don't know how *you* can think that we aren't all slaves now. And yet, most European Americans today (not all) accept African Americans much better than they did 100 years ago. How did that happen?

I know blacks who are married to whites; one of the strongest marriages spouse and I know is black and white. Their children are successful, but they have had some mighty struggles. We all do, but they have had some extra ones thrown in.

They are all hard workers. My family has all worked hard. Some of us have been more successful than others, but I would say the American 'dream' is winding down for all of us. Whatever color.

The bankers continue to divide *us*, whatever our color. I don't know how you can think that blacks in the inner city are being privileged, through welfare. It is a poison, just as Indian reservations are poisoned.

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

Slavery is obviously a

Slavery is obviously a horrible thing, but as a practical note, after being granted freedom didn't most of them wind up working on plantations for subsistence wages?

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

because there were no other opportunities for them--

those with unusual gifts/intelligence often were able to get away from that--

I suppose they could have gone hungry, rather than stayed and worked and been treated, still, as slaves.

There was no freeing of slaves with the Civil War. A white man could still kill a black man (or woman) without any provocation and for any reason without any accountability. That is freedom?

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--