24 votes

If we could sell non-interventionism, then we might win

In this interview, Ron Paul says that Russia may have the law on its side and that the the West may have undermined the previous Ukraine government.


http://youtu.be/RwK_xtzyS74

http://m.townhall.com/tipsheet/greghengler/2014/03/13/ron-pa...

If these things are true, then they are not going to convince the American public. When a Vladimir Putin or a nihilist terrorist group pushes our buttons, the casual viewer will be offended by a nuanced argument about the aggressor.

The problem is that Putin actually is a thug. So was Bin Ladin. How do we persuade the public that it's a bad idea to go out and stop these thugs? Is this a time to start connecting dots, one simple argument at a time? If so, then how?

Is there any chance that the public could believe that Bin Ladin would have been a nobody if the USA had not helped him fight the Soviet Union?

Is there a way to show Americans that if they support interventionism, then NSA surveillance will become even worse?

Could Americans be persuaded that we will destroy our economy if we intervene everywhere in the world?

Can we persuade Americans that the best way to spread freedom around the world is to create a shining free society that is the envy of the world?

Bottom line. Some of our adversaries are thugs. How do we sell non-interventionism anyway?

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Obama The Fool

First Syria now Ukraine. Their is proof that the US and EU were working to support the over throw of the Ukrainian President that was leaning towards Russia. Now they are outraged because Russia has beaten us by stepping into the chaos we created and positioning themselves to benefit before we could...

Bush proved that you can't invade a country and control them

Obama has once again proven you can't use the CIA to spark an over throw to control a country.

Maybe we should try something that has been proven to work.. non-interventionism

Dr. Paul is always one step ahead of these "news" people.

Yet the news-reporters always act like Dr. Paul is senile when he points out the hypocrisy of the situation ( in this case the news person submits the fact that Russia is massing troops in the region to influence the decision-making process, but Dr. Paul points out that America also has armies in the region.

This all goes back to Kazakhstan, which you will notice is very close to the Crimea. Russia, China ( which both border Kazakhstan ) and the USA are vying for control of Kazakhstan and the pipelines that ship oil near it. This country is supposed to have much of the known supply of oil below it and is virtually an untapped resource.

All selling starts with

All selling starts with qualifying your prospects. Don't waste your time selling me the Yankees, I'm a Red Sox fan. Don't waste your time selling me Buddhism, I'm a Christian. Passionate believers are the costliest prospects. Got a prospect, then sell sweeping themes. "We're not going to fix the Middle East. They've hated each other for thousands of years." Ride with the agreeing nods, don't preach, don't soapbox. "Our soldiers die, lose arms and legs, and sending them over there costs trillions we don't have, can you believe that?" Ending with a question provokes a response.

You can go in a hundred different directions of course keeping in mind that successful selling is listening then tailoring a response. I often use the idea that I have two teenage sons and I will not have them get drafted and get blown up in a desert. When they say there'll never be a draft again, I say it's not like it's 100 years ago that I sat in the living room as my older brother waited and prayed for a high number when birthday numbers were drawn for Viet Nam. Many phrases can sell, humble foreign policy, non-interventionism as well, we can't be the policeman to the world. What I like to say is I'm the type of libertarian that believes in what Jefferson said "Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations — entangling alliances with none." Don't speak to details within Crimea, the only people who know the details probably already have passionate political views.

10-15 million more voters need to believe in non-interventionism (liberty) at home and abroad to change America. Minds changed on Syria. Minds changing on privacy. "Printing money" is part of the dialogue. Win minds through focus, strategy.

Star Trek Fans are fans of the PRIME DIRECTIVE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Directive

My point here is that the concept goes under many names... market to all those sub groups ...ie the Golden Rule, The Prime Directive, etc. and make the LINK between Nonintervention and the concept that they already subscribe to.

Anyone know what the Buddhists and Hindus word for this concept?

Yes, please BUY this wonderful libertarian BOOK! We all must know the History of Freedom! Buy it today!

"The System of Liberty: Themes in the History of Classical Liberalism" ...by author George Smith --
Buy it Here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/05211820

Old Western movies give me some hope

The old Western movies always portrayed heroes as extremely reluctant to fight. The portrayal probably was a myth in the Wild West, but the popularity of those movies suggests that Americans might be summoned to their better angels if persuasive arguments could be made.

‘Each individual is separated from others by a "taboo of personal isolation"...this "narcissism of minor differences"'
--Sigmund Freud

Non intervention is smart.

By virtue of temperance, let the Ukrainian people vote, i.e.; via referendum, decide who their government is. Stop forcing things. They did not protest and die for a US led or a Russian led assertion of obligatory contracts to be paid back to either western or eastern oligarchic interests. This coup and carry pretense of a valid government, serenaded by the politically correct in DC, is without foundation. Crimea is choosing their own path to follow, via referendum tomorrow, and we are hemming and hawing all over the place about this. Why not give the rest of this torn and exploited population the chance to do the same? They earned it. They did not earn a forced change of leadership, one not voted in and not representative of the population as a whole. Only an actual counting of people's choices will provide a popularly created governance. Recall a 5000 mile distance separates the us from them. Not too close to worry about immediate invasion, or drastic action. Back off, do not subject any more young American military forces to potentially deadly encounters for objectives foreign to our shores. Non intervention is smart. Intervention and isolationism are both dumb extremes, yet political leaders follow the former, and lambast the latter. Better start serious support for free energy systems, and face the fact that petrol-fiat dollar diplomacy is obsolete, a 20th century pachyderm gone extinct along with the Mammoths and mastodons. Knowledge spreading via internet proliferation disallows propagandist swaying of people's views as was done in the preceding era on this planet.

Why don't we use

a different term. Most people don't understand the word "non-interventionism" as it isn't often used in everyday vocabulary. Why not start using the word "neutral".

"We should have a policy of neutrality and not get militarily involved with international situations that don't directly threaten the land of the U.S or undermine the rights and freedoms of our citizens." said the Libertarian leaning candidate.

I think that would be much more quickly understood and readily accepted by the general public. Use Switzerland as an example. Anyone with at least a decent education knows that Switzerland is neutral and doesn't/won't get involved in wars unless they are directly attacked. We should use that as a comparison of what we want our foreign policy to be like.

"Liberty is to the collective body, what health is to every individual body. Without health no pleasure can be tasted by man; without liberty, no happiness can be enjoyed by society."

— Henry St. John

Mechanisms of Swiss neutrality: Compulsory gun ownership, etc.

If I understand correctly, in order to provide for self defense, the central government has no authority to surrender. The Swiss banks are wired to be blown up if Switzerland is in existential danger. The Swiss are required to own guns and to demonstrate proficiency at using them or to pay higher taxes if they cannot or choose not to do it. I am not sure that the USA should go that far, but it it does go to show you how difficult it could be to enforce neutrality in the context of gun control.

‘Each individual is separated from others by a "taboo of personal isolation"...this "narcissism of minor differences"'
--Sigmund Freud

Neutrality has a nice ring to it

Is there any chance that neutrality could be sold to the American public based on the practical, philosophical and moral arguments that I laid out, or based on any other arguments?

‘Each individual is separated from others by a "taboo of personal isolation"...this "narcissism of minor differences"'
--Sigmund Freud

"The problem is that Putin actually is a thug."

So THEY would have us believe. A little nugget of calumny hidden in a big slice of libertarian motherhood and apple pie.

After all Putin believes in the rule of law and the sovereignty of the people and acts accordingly. How dare he indict the free and democratic United States of America, that exceptional nation, that paragon of perfection, with hypocrisy, treachery, murder by proxy and lying.

Newsflash: You will never convince a violent criminal gang of thugs that throwing their weight around the world, in order to enrich themselves and their buddies, is a bad idea. It's the only idea that they have ever had and they keep doing it because they are thieves, killers and destroyers. It is their nature.

P.S. They usually accuse their opponents of all their own evil character in order to demonise them and to justify attacking them. It's a really simple plan and it keeps working because people in general are gullible.

"Can we persuade Americans that the best way to spread freedom around the world is to create a shining free society that is the envy of the world?"

In a word, NO. They are too far gone, just like my own country the (dis) United Kingdom. They are incapable of creating anything remotely resembling a "shining free society that is the envy of the world".

"For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit, for each tree is known by its own fruit. For figs are not gathered from thornbushes, nor are grapes picked from a bramble bush." (Luke 6:43-44)

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

Putin is an interventionist

If he perceived a coup d'état, then he didn't have to send in his troops to enforce an election. We can try to justify neutrality without supporting Putin.

‘Each individual is separated from others by a "taboo of personal isolation"...this "narcissism of minor differences"'
--Sigmund Freud

He did not send in troops to force an election.

He sent in reinforcements to the existing naval and military bases in Sevastopol which he was entitled to do under existing agreements. The decision to hold a referendum to decide whether to leave Ukraine and re-join Russia was taken by the parliament of Ukraine in the usual fashion. They have wanted to do this for some time and the putsch in Kiev simply accelerated the process.

The extremist neo-Nazi factions in the Kiev government have taken control of the military and security apparatus and have threatened Russian speaking Ukrainians They attempted to take control of the Interior Ministry of Crimea at the beginning but were repelled by the Crimean self defence forces. These are the soldiers that Western media alleged were Russian troops. Many Ukrainian military personnel in Crimea have changed sides, including the admiral in charge of the Ukrainian Navy.

Russian speakers, many of whom are dual citizens, are the majority in Eastern Ukraine and have asked Russia for help. Putin has said that if the Kiev government moves against Russian citizens and Russian speakers in Ukraine then he will send in troops. It is difficult at this time to gain a clear picture of what is now happening as is usual in any conflict.

Non-intervention is a policy that means much more in connection with the United States which is an inveterate aggressor in the world, as we know. They have intervened in Ukraine for many years and have spent $5 billion undermining the political process there. Their actions have brought about the present situation and to accuse Putin for acting defensively to protect people in Ukraine and to stop the aggression of NATO and the EU within the Russian Federation's legitimate zone of influence is perverse.

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

Not true. Russian troops

Not true. Russian troops were there legally on the Russian base, but subsequent interventions were illegal. Putin is as bad if not worse than George W Bush and Barack Obama when he intervenes to promote free elections.

The USA should be neutral simply because it is the right and most effective way to be. We don't have to support the lies of dictators in order to stop meddling in the affairs of other nations.

‘Each individual is separated from others by a "taboo of personal isolation"...this "narcissism of minor differences"'
--Sigmund Freud

Well of course you may believe this.

However I choose to believe what Putin himself has said very clearly. The Western mass media have naturally asserted what you have claimed here. However their track record on giving a truthful account in these situations, e.g. in Iraq, Libya and Syria, is less than spotless.

I am not at all certain what your sources of information are but the U.S. and the EU/NATO have been and continue to be far from neutral. On the contrary they are up to their oxters in subversion and skulduggery in many countries on many fronts.

For Putin to remain neutral in his own backyard when a friendly, fraternal, neighbouring nation's government is being overthrown in a violent putsch costing many deaths and injuries, inflicted by the neo-Nazi brigades, would be tantamount to a betrayal of the people of Ukraine. He has spoken and acted so far with restraint but has made it abundantly clear that he is willing to defend his country's and Ukraine's legitimate interests against the lawless actions of the U.S. and EU supported violence.

Your last paragraph speaks volumes of your state of mind. President Putin is not a dictator any more than President Yanukovych is a dictator. There were both elected to their offices and, unlike Bush and Obama, their elections were a reflection of the popular vote rather than a result of manipulating election voting machines. The U.S. on the other hand is an aggressive neo-imperial rogue nation run by a criminal cabal who have shown themselves to be capable of any betrayal, malfeasance, murder and mayhem to further their plundering of the nations of the world.

Ron Paul did what he could to change course but he was cheated out of the nomination by the crooks who run America because they have no intention of arresting their march towards world domination. This is the real state of the world and to pretend otherwise is foolish. We should be praying that President Putin is able to halt this cabal just as he did in Syria. As I said he is acting defensively and neutrality is simply not an option when one is faced with naked aggression.

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

Who cares about Putin? It's about selling neutrality

Obviously I would not have started a discussion about selling neutrality if I thought that the West was already neutral or blameless. I doubt that you or I have all the facts on the ground about Putin and Crimea and frankly those facts are irrelevant. My real question for those who are interested (this is not directed to you because you have already dismissed the question) is how do we sell neutrality when the hot buttons of the American people have been pushed?

‘Each individual is separated from others by a "taboo of personal isolation"...this "narcissism of minor differences"'
--Sigmund Freud

that comment was THUNDER from Heaven!

Wheww...powerful....and totally agree!

Jesus is the saviour of the WHOLE WORLD, "As in Adam all die, so too in Christ ALL shall be made alive." (ICor.15:22) All means all. The pagan 'hell' of literal fire & eternal torment is a lie and is SPIRITUAL TERRORISM. http://www.hopebeyondhell.net

Dictatorial Government is the Problem

Quit defending Putin the dictator. He is at least as bad as Bush-Obama.

Stand up for the people of Crimea and not the Russian govt troops that are there "legally".

You people that will throw in with one dictator out of hatred for another are crazy.

No intervention and no acceptance of "world powers" - people have a right to be free, not "protected" by one side or the other.

I'm sorry, I think you are misinformed.

The people of Crimea will vote on March 16 to determine if they wish to re-join Russia or remain with Ukraine. Russia has indicated that they will accept the result of this referendum but the U.S and the EU have refused to do so. There has been no coercion of this vote by Russia, no matter what the Western mass media would have us believe. The people of Crimea have talked about this for some time. It is not new but it has been accelerated by the the coup d'etat in Kiev.

Every country needs a certain kind of government depending upon their history and their culture. This is something many fail to understand. At this moment in time Russia needs Vladimir Putin and the people of Russia recognise this. He has a very high acceptance rating in Russia amongst his people and that is what matters. He is nothing at all like Bush or Obama. That is a bizarre idea.

He has admitted that he has had to be more firm in his approach for some time but this is changing as the country recovers from the rapine behaviour of the globalist corporations and banks after the fall of the U.S.S.R.

I suspect that you are allowing your ideological convictions coupled with a natural prejudice inculcated by years of exposure to U.S. media propaganda to blind you to these facts. You are not alone. The general ignorance of Americans of the cultures of other countries has been a national characteristic for as long as I can remember. This is why Ron Paul has been ignored for so long. His views are not very common amongst Americans.

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

I Guess "The Truth Hurts"

..and , as usual, you are spot on in your assessment.

Has anyone mentioned the "memorandum" that was signed by all the parties currently running their mouths off about "what Putin is doing"?

That very same "memorandum" or treaty that forbade outside interference in the affairs of the Ukraine by ANYONE...yes even the USA.

It is truly an uphill battle,but we must chip away at all the BS being perpetrated by the MSM and undo the brainwashing of the populace.

Putin, although "more correct" in his "intervention", may also be in league of sorts with the banksters...and it may all be coming to a head and should be more accurately described as akin to:
"A drug deal gone bad"...yeah the poop has hit the fan for sure.

"Beyond the blackened skyline, beyond the smoky rain, dreams never turned to ashes up until.........
...Everything CHANGED !!

Isolationist

ISOLATIONIST is the only word I hear on your sales expedition. The Roth zio media has already given the buzz word. Hard to make that sell to the population. Even harder to have a real election and not one of the puppet shows that installs the zio Roth agent.

sovereign

Worked for WGS in 1899, works for me now...

Of course "principles," phrases, and catchwords are always invented to bolster up any policy, which anybody wants to recommend. So, in this case. The people who have led us on to shut ourselves in, and who now want us to break out, warn us against the terrors of "isolation." Our ancestors all came here to isolate themselves from the social burdens and inherited errors of the old world. When the others are all over ears in trouble, who would not be isolated in freedom from care? When the others are crushed under the burden of militarism, who would not be isolated in peace and industry? When the others are all struggling under debt and taxes, who would not be isolated in the enjoyment of his own earnings for the benefit of his own family? When the rest are all in a quiver of anxiety, lest at a day's notice they may be involved in a social cataclysm, who would not be isolated out of reach of the disaster? What we are doing is that we are abandoning this blessed isolation to run after a share in the trouble. – William Graham Sumner in “The Conquest of the United States by Spain” 1899